Should the 16th at Cypress Point have been

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, I am not sure of intent or other options other than what many of us have read. However while one can make your arguement on this hole, it is not sound to me. It is one of the greatest holes in golf as it is. The way the green is set, the wind and the carry all are challenges of the highest order.

How would a Biarritz green change that ?

To create a probable 3 put if one ends up in the wrong part of the green seems silly to me. Most are hitting anything from a long iron to a driver. I have never hit less than a 4 wood in 30 plus rounds. It is usually a driver or aoccasionally a 3 wood.

You're losing sight of the dimensions of the green and the dimensions of a regular, or the current green.
If a golfer is 30+ yards short of a back pin today, he's chipping for par.
If he was 30+ yards short of a back pin on a Biarritz he'd be approach putting for par.

I would like to think your club will welcome Weis as a member given your love and respect for him and the extra 18 million he has in the bank after his ND days. Hopefully the school will show it is a place of higher learning and not merely a front for NBC executives to wash money through. Ok the wash part was a joke. Or they can learn from mistakes and fire the AD who did this most stupid 10 year K in year one after doing an 8 year K for Willingham. No we Tigers are not happy with Miles game day blunders either.

Why do you want to ruin a good thread by going stupidly off topic ?[/color]

[DMoriarty]

Tiger,

Also keep in mind that the swale and first plateau were not necessarily even part of the green.   In fact, if we think in terms of the original concept I am not even sure that there had to be a definite first plateau, but rather a long shot to a long green with a swale just short of the putting surface, so the lesser player had a challenging but possible option of trying to run the ball through the swale and onto the green (either on his first shot or his second, from just short.)

[Kalen Braley]

Ahhh cmon Pat,

There is never a bad time to talk about ND football!!   

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4679733

P.S.  They show an interesting stat in that video.  Charlie Weis had far superior results when Ty's recruits were the primary role players at ND, his first two years....than when its been Charlies recruits.   

So I take it all back Pat....please, please, please do whatever is in your power not to get Weis fired because the drama/scrunity and Weis poor puppy dog facial expressions week after week is far too good not to have around anymore!! 

P.P.S.  Losing to Connetticut, a doormat in a not very good Big East Conference was precious!! 

[DMoriarty]

Kalen,  why don't you start a thread if you want to talk ND football?  Preferably on a ND football site.  Thanks. 

[Gib_Papazian]

I have long wondered whether Raynor envisioned the 16th hole at Cypress Point as a Biarritz at all. Uncle George is the wheel, while I am only the mud flap, so of course I'll defer to his superior wisdom when he chimes in. In the meantime, let's look at the entire discussion from a slightly different (and possibly obtuse) angle.

The *original* Macdonald "Cape" at NGLA was not the diagonal carry we associate with that moniker. The green complex was on a spit of land jutting out into Bullhead Bay. From the tee, one had the option of trying to gun one over a long expanse of water straight for the green, or play to the left leaving an awkward pitch for the 2nd shot.

How is that different from the 16th at Cypress?

When the access road was constructed at NGLA, the 14th hole was changed to what we now call the "Cape" - and it is the diagonal carry that somehow became salient the strategic element - not the fact that the green was surrounded on three sides by water.

Maybe I am suffering from a flashback from my ill-spent youth - or still so traumatized about the USC-Stanford game that I've lost the ability to think rationally. However, if you look at the 16th at Cypress as a clever short par-4, it is not really a Biarritz, is it?

It is the original definition of a Cape Hole.  

George?      

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

David I am having trouble figuring out where the space is for all that. It is a long shot to hold on that green as it is. I assumed you and Pat were runing with a large green with swale in the middle as opposed to swale and forward portions being a chipping area

[TEPaul]

Gibster:

If Alister created the 100-175 yard bailout option on CPC's 16th hole as a conceptual imitation of CBM's NGLA Cape Hole concept something tells me Alister was mocking Charlie!  

Or looked at conversely, do you think Charlie would've recommended that anyone who actually tried to hit the green from the tee at CPC's 16th should be a candidate to be disinherited?

If you can't come up with a rational answer to that question just ask The Redhead----she'll set you straight.

[Jim_Kennedy]

The *original* Macdonald "Cape" at NGLA was not the diagonal carry we associate with that moniker. The green complex was on a spit of land jutting out into Bullhead Bay. From the tee, one had the option of trying to gun one over a long expanse of water straight for the green, or play to the left leaving an awkward pitch for the 2nd shot.
How is that different from the 16th at Cypress? - Gib

That sounds like the 17th, at least looking down on it.

[Bill_McBride]

Gibster:

If Alister created the 100-175 yard bailout option on CPC's 16th hole as a conceptual imitation of CBM's NGLA Cape Hole concept something tells me Alister was mocking Charlie!  

Or looked at conversely, do you think Charlie would've recommended that anyone who actually tried to hit the green from the tee at CPC's 16th should be a candidate to be disinherited?

If you can't come up with a rational answer to that question just ask The Redhead----she'll set you straight.

Isn't there a tee farther back that increases that carry to the peninsula?

[DMoriarty]

Gib,  It certainly does have some cape characteristics, but there are few differences (or possible differences) to consider.  

1.  I don't think the original cape at NGLA was intended to be a drivable hole.  The descriptions I have seen make it sound like the very best drives may put the golfer in a position just a bit right of the green where putting (from off the green) might be a possibility.   While AM considered making the 16th a short par 4, he ultimately did not.  

2.  For me the beauty of the original cape concept was that because the green jutted out into trouble, the angle of approach was at least as important as the distance of the drive.  One could hit a huge drive (240 yards) but leave a terrible angle.   Likewise one could find a perfect angle, but might leave themselves a long shot in.   So the golfer had to figure the correct combination of the two, and then execute.   With the 16th, I don't think the angle of approach from the fairway is as important, nor do I think the distance and angle play off each other in the same way.  Maybe I am just remembering it incorrectly.

3.  By the time you get to the 16th, you've already played at least one hole with sort of a cape concept and you still have another to go.  

________________________________________________________

Tiger,

If you have Geoff's book take a look at the photo on page 162.  You can see that the green used to be more rectangular, and deeper than it is wide.  You can also see that there used to be more room between the front-left bunker and the green.  I cannot tell exactly but I think the bunker used to be back farther and more toward the cliff, so that their actually was a swale between the green and the bunker, and from a different angle (one might have been able to hit it short and through the swale, and onto the green.  

Take a look at the photo on page 164 as well.   I think we can see the front of the green, and quite a bit of grass (and/or an upslope) short of the green.  And from the photo on page 162, we can see there was even more room before the green for a golfer who  just cleared the bunker.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Moriarty,

I agree, I don't think the original 14th (5th) at NGLA was a drivable green.
I believe it was about distance, angles and the resultant approach shot, but, never about a carry that could reach the green.

Not even TEPaul's wonderous Marion Hollis could have made that drive in 1909.

All too often some examine golf holes in the context of today's I&B, rather than in the context of the balls and equipment in use when a course was designed/built.

If # 16 at CPC was initially contemplated as a par 4, then the "Cape" principle/concept must have been in play.

However, since the hole debuted as a par 3, the "Cape" concept would seem to be out, and the "Biarritz" concept a reasonable possibility.

As a "true" Biarritz, with a carry that matched the original, would # 16 be a spectacular hole ?

I don't see how it couldn't, but would listen to arguments to the contrary.

With such an heroic carry, over a precipice, with the Pacific Ocean below, and the winds buffeting the golfer, I don't see how any hole placed/designed there, couldn't be anything but terrific.

In other words the site is so special that any hole, from the original/existing tee to the original/existing green HAS to be special.

And, as a Biarritz, might it not be even better.

Where are Raynor's plans when you need them ?

[George_Bahto]

Gib, no where did Hollins, Raynor or Dr. Mac refer to 16-CP as a Biarritz design.

I am the one referring the hole as being a Biarritz - based on the fact that the long par-3's on Macdonald, Raynor, Banks courses were Biarritz holes.

I take full responsibility - MY OPINION!!

There is some reflection to Cape in some form or another, Gib, but Cape holes they built were generally under 360-370 yards......the lone exception that comes to mind is Mid Ocean 5


so I don’t “get” Cape out of 16-CP

There were any number of Biarritz holes that do not look like Biarritz - no swale - one at Blind Brook comes to mind: push-up green, no swale a bit shorter yardage (because it was built for an older membership) - actually looks like an downhill Eden hole.

Point is there are so many variations to a Biarritz !!! wait til you play Old Macdonald’s - like no other Biarritz and a swale like no other - pure sculpture - not the usual “lets lay a huge pipe into the soft approach and we’ll have a “perfect” linear trench   .... “

Anyhow, I’m glad Dr. Mac built the course (unfortunately, never been there .......... booooo)

Pat: I doubt if you’ll ever see the Raynor Plan. I’ll have the conversation with the person who saw the in the (someday) upcoming Raynor book ..... renamed as someone suggested:

Seth Raynor - The Dork From New York

a portion of the conversation: the Raynor plan  "still existed in 1974, was studied then, and discussed with us over tea at Commonwealth Golf Club in 1978 by a great golfing gentleman not given to prevarication or exaggeration."

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,  I agree generally but think I am more with George on this one.   I think the hole was relatively close to a Biarritz as the hole was originally intended, and think it would have been great fun as such.   While it looks like the coastline may have changed shape somewhat, it is still there, or could be if the bunkers were in their original position and the gap between where the bunkers are and the green was reestablished.  That way the swale short would be more in play from the tee. 

One other consideration-- the terrific option presented by the huge layup area left (although it might have really felt like a very short shot into a biarritz from over there.)   That in my mind is one of the factors that makes this such a great hole, and I'm not sure that this fits with the Biarritz mold. 

____________________________

George,

Thanks for chiming in.  Informative as always.

[Jim Nugent]

George Bahto's quote seems to make it pretty clear that Raynor routed a par 3 hole on this spot. If this is true, it seems obvious that he would have made it a Biarritz. Biarritz holes were always the longest one-shotter on his designs. What other type of green complex would you expect?

This confuses me, because Bahto's quote makes it clear to me that Raynor did not route any hole on this spot:

"It was suggested to her by the late Seth Raynor that it was a pity the carry over the ocean was too long to enable a hole to be designed on this particular site."

As for Pat's question on this thread, a Biarritz green or green complex at CPC 16 seems like overkill to me.   I've never played the course, though.   

[George_Bahto]

I think you fella are trying to fit all Biarritz holes into some sort of single model.

In general:

Macdonald sees of hears about this hole dramatic hole on the Biarritz course, the Chasm.

He needs a long (200-plus yards) one-shot hole to go along with what he is trying to accomplish on par-3s - testing various clubs by building various lengths par-3 to fit four sections of the golf bag;

1.   A short hole of from 135-145 (don’t nit-pick the numbers, they are approximations from the 19-teens and 1920's based on scorecards from his earlier courses)
2.   An Eden style hole - middle iron test, from about 160 to 175 (160 was the norm)
3.   Redan, a long iron or wood-club -the average Redan length on his earlier courses were, on average, 187 yds.
4.   missing a long hole ........ my thinking is that he wanted one unreachable on the fly. Here is where a lot of us get into trouble. We keeping thinking about this stuff in the context of today’s play. Think about those players not hitting the ball 200-yards on the fly but counting on a ball that will bound 50 - 60 (and more) yards. There were hardly any holes in the British Isles that fit this mode for him besides the hole in France (I knew they would be of some help at some time).

Big Charlie builds NGLA with only three par-3's leaving out the long par-3. My personal opinion? He felt he didn‘t have the topography for a Biarritz hole on the Southampton property.

So he builds the first Biarritz hole, ground level at Piping Rock - hard turf, a running shot.

Next at Sleepy Hollow he builds a goofy down hill short Biarritz of about 200 yards that is so bad you cannot even see the swale and the “front” fairway area just a flat landing area. That hole is part of the “lower course” - the 7th.

Over time he and Raynor build Biarritz holes on their courses that fit a general model - again, single green fronted by a swale (if possible) with a landing area (fairway preceding the swale. No so-called “double green” (in those days).

I think his side, strip bunkering (when used) was to simulate the left and right greenside hazard problems on the France green ....... probably close to the cliff-line on the right. I have no idea what was on the left of the French hole.

But to me the key is that, yes, there was a basic model but they were not anchored to it and often used the local terrain and the wishes of the membership as a guide for what they were going to build.

1.   Westhampton CC: a reversed horseshoe around the fronting fairway - a one of a kind.
2.   As earlier stated, often there was no swale but just a push-up green, usually on “moderately hard” courses, like Blind Brook, and courses where the membership did not wanted a killer course. “Charlie, we can always go out to National if we want to get knocked out but for every day place give us some moderation” (a Blind Brook paraphrase).
3.   Essex County a downhill Biarritz cocked at more than a 15-degree angle to the line of play with no bunkering on the right but on the left there was bunkering for nearly 100-yards up the hill.
4.   A few, very boring, ground level holes with hardly a swale.

Occasionally they hit the jackpot - Yale, Fishers Island and such.

They were not forcing this early Biarritz model into a course unless it looked right - if it did not, they modified the hole. Some Biarritz holes were cut into a hill; Tamarack. Many were dramatically built up on level land; The Knoll, Chicago etc.; out on an island, Creek

One of the neat things about CP-16, to me, is the angle the land sits on, relative to the line of play to the green. Apparently, a 200-yards carry straight on but less of a carry the further to the left you opt to play. Nice - an optional-play par-3.

So, the question seems to be, did Seth Raynor “see” what became the 16th hole as a definitive Biarritz hole?  Who the heck knows! But it was certainly part of his overall routing of the course

[Bill_McBride]

George, I thought the original hole at Biarritz, France that is credited as the inspiration for Macdonald's "Biarritz" par 3s was a hole that had a forced carry over a chasm, and the swale in Macdonald's holes is there to represent the "chasm."

Are you implying that the green itself at Biarritz, France had a swale in it?

I think the 16th at Cypress Point is a great tribute to the original "Chasm" hole at Biarritz, France, as it certainly has a (heroic) forced carry over a chasm.  It doesn't need a swale if that's what David is implying.

So I'm a bit confused and hope this can be cleared up.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[Jim Nugent]

The swales on CBM's Biarritz holes don't seem to me like much of a replica or tribute to the chasm hole at Biarritz.  They do not mimic the playing conditions: you certainly could not run a ball through the chasm.  Also the chasm hole played much, much shorter than CBM's Biarritz holes.  If there was no swale on or before the green at Biarritz, in what way are CBM's Biarritz holes like the "original?"  They would not have played or looked like it. 

Do we know for sure who gave the name "Biarritz" to CBM's holes?  If it wasn't CBM, the hole may have nothing at all to do with the chasm hole.  Or if CBM did name the hole, he still may not have patterned it off the chasm hole.  IIRC, Rich Goodale pointed out that N. Berwick used to be known as the Biarritz of the north.     

Does anyone know when the crazy green at #16 at N. Berwick was made?  Also, did CBM know about this green, before he built the Biarritz greens?  This plus the Valley of Sin seem like closer replicas to the Biarritz holes, than what I understand about the chasm hole.  I strike that last statement, if the chasm hole did indeed have a swale on or before the green. 

[TEPaul]

"This confuses me, because Bahto's quote makes it clear to me that Raynor did not route any hole on this spot:

"It was suggested to her by the late Seth Raynor that it was a pity the carry over the ocean was too long to enable a hole to be designed on this particular site.""


JimN:

That's right----or so the CPC story goes Raynor apparently did say it was a pity the carry over the ocean was too long to enable a hole to be designed on this particular site----but then at that point apparently Marion said something like: "Oh yeah, then watch this" and she hit a brassie from a little more than 200 yards over the ocean and onto the site that is now the green.

[DMoriarty]

I always picture the purpose of the swale (or the upslope if the green is simply plateaued) was to make the run up shot a bit more interesting and challenging.   It is certainly more interesting and challenging to try and run a ball through a swale than on flat ground.

George,  I agree with you that we have to consider the distance they used to hit the ball, but think there is some danger to overplaying this.   Many golfers could carry the ball 200 yards in the Haskell era.   Most probably couldn't, but many could.   

Rustic has a deep green with a swale right before it on a 216 yard par 3, and it presents a few interesting playability aspects which are seldom discussed in terms of the Biarritz.     

1.  The golfer must make a definite choice to either completely carry the swale or to land the ball far enough back that it will run through the swale.   Because if you hit into the upslope of the swale, your ball is going nowhere.    Many golfers try to make the green but don't quite make it and end up in the swale.   This seems a very CBM-like ploy to me--  punish the near-miss of the attempt at the perfect shot (in this case carrying it over the swale and stopping it on the green.)

For those with experience playing Biaritz holes built by CBM, does the swale function similarly there?   Do balls hit into the face of the swale stay in it?

2.  At Rustic running through the swale  is a challenge because  the ball must first carry the wash and a ditch.   So the shot must be far enough to carry the trouble, but not far enough to get stuck in the swale.   

George.    I notice that while on flat ground, Piping Rock's Biarritz has a bunker crossing the line of play short of the short landing area.    Has this always been there?     Strategically, it seems to serve the purpose of the Chasm-- requiring even the player utilizing the ground game to at least carry it to a bit short of the green.    Is this a correct understanding?   

I ask because, thinking of the strategies presented it seems important that there be some sort of carry over something before the ball starts rolling.   This seems to be a possible reach back to the chasm to me. 

[George_Bahto]

Jim Nugent:

The swale is not a representation of the Chasm.

Also, you said the Chasm hole “played much, much shorter than CBM’s Biarritz holes.”
On page 182 Scotland’s Gift - Golf, Macdonald clearly  state (item #15) 210 yards suggested by the 12th (3rd) Biarritz .......

next page: “these distances are measured from middle of teeing ground to middle of putting green, With proper teeing ground space and putting greens each hole could be lengthened at will from 20 to 30 yards.”


Jim N:” Do we know for sure who gave the name "Biarritz" to CBM's holes?”

Jim, he clearly named the hole - page 182



Jim N: “If there was no swale on or before the green at Biarritz, in what way are CBM's Biarritz holes like the "original?" They would not have played or looked like it.”[/color]

Jim, no one has been able to ascertain what the green in France looked like and all these listed “inspiration holes” were merely than - an inspiration. We found the original Leven hole inspiration on the Leven course in Scotland. It looks NOTHING like what Macdonald built as the great 17th at National. Eden - the 11th St. Andrews: nothing he and his “cohorts”  built come close to any Eden they built - and so on ........ inspiration


Jim N:  ”Does anyone know when the crazy green at #16 at N. Berwick was made? Also, did CBM know about this green, before he built the Biarritz greens? This plus the Valley of Sin seem like closer replicas to the Biarritz holes, than what I understand about the chasm hole. I strike that last statement, if the chasm hole did indeed have a swale on or before the green.”[/i]

We’ve been thru this one any number of times and I haven’t got the time right now to reiterate this one but if you search engine it out, I’m sure you’ll find a few threads that discuss it.

I’ve also explained my position on where the swale comes from (St Andrews’ 18th). If anyone comes up with some sort of proof otherwise, I’m wide open. I’d love to find out what the original France green looked like.

Hope this helps.

[archie_struthers]

 

I actually thought the question was going to be   "should the 16th at Cypress been lengthened a little and made into the best risk reward par four "  ever  ??   

[Anthony Gray]

  THe biarritz green would be out of character with the the others.

  Anthony

[George_Bahto]

David:  "George.    I notice that while on flat ground, Piping Rock's Biarritz has a bunker crossing the line of play short of the short landing area.    Has this always been there?     Strategically, it seems to serve the purpose of the Chasm-- requiring even the player utilizing the ground game to at least carry it to a bit short of the green.    Is this a correct understanding?  "

That bunker, well short of the "fairway", the swale and the green was to represent the carry over the hazard

note the illustration of the Knoll's 13th - many clubs removed this bunker becausxe, to them, it served no purpose at all.

......  although that is the original position built by Charles Banks, I think it would be more representative if it were placed at the beginning of the side bunkers

[George_Bahto]

Anthony: "out of character "

an inspriation - that would fit its surrounding neighborhood

[George_Bahto]

Here is one of the "different" versions of Biarritz - angled approach - Essex County CC, West Orange, NJ

 there is hardly a swale - bad drainage area. The swale is in a very low area surround by lots of "downhill"