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Tony Ristola

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Dear Colleagues
« on: October 29, 2009, 05:18:53 PM »
Howdy.

I'm in discussion with a group for a project in the mountains and I’ve been thrown a curve ball.

Here are the facts:

The subsoil is gravel.
The top 30 cm is a mix of sand and stone.
The property is mostly forest; fir trees.
The property is fairly flat.

I’ve spoken with several people with decades of construction experience to make sure my decision making process was ok, or more than ok. Now I’m throwing it out to you to hear your professional opinion. It seems this is a breaking point in cost.

After cutting the trees, stump removal and grubbing, I plan to take the top 30 cm of material and run it through a screen to remove stones and debris. This material would go back to cap the fairways (10cm… 4 inches) after they’d been lightly shaped.

I’d been made aware of an “alternate method”. This involves crushing the stone and everything else the machine runs over, crushing it into a growing medium.

I know there are machines that push the stones under, leaving a layer of topsoil, but I am unfamiliar with this “crushing” method.

Has anyone heard of such a mechanical method of pulverizing stone to create a growing medium for fairways. ? Have you heard of this? Does it actually work? Let me know your thoughts.

Cheers.
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Dick Kirkpatrick

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Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2009, 05:33:39 PM »
Tony

What is under the top 30cm ?

When you grub the stumps out you will be mixing the lower material with the top 30cm.

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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2009, 05:44:16 PM »
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

rjsimper

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Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2009, 05:50:00 PM »
Paging Jon Spaulding
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Tony Ristola

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Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2009, 05:51:46 PM »
Quote from: Dick Kirkpatrick on October 29, 2009, 05:33:39 PM
Tony

What is under the top 30cm ?

When you grub the stumps out you will be mixing the lower material with the top 30cm.



Gravel is under the sand/stone mix.
Mixing is a possibility surely, hence the screening.



Jim,

That looks like it need be loaded, just as a power screen would.
I'm looking for something to crush it on the spot. Something mobile that drives over the surface, leaving pulverized "soil" in its wake.

Thanks guys.
Please... keep it coming.


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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2009, 06:03:41 PM »
OK Tony, how about this? that'll be five bucks for my time.  ;D

http://www.equipmentworld.com/articles.aspx?a=2483&z=67
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tony Ristola

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Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2009, 06:08:54 PM »
Quote from: Jim_Kennedy on October 29, 2009, 06:03:41 PM
OK Tony, how about this? that'll be five bucks for my time.  ;D

http://www.equipmentworld.com/articles.aspx?a=2483&z=67

LOL.
Thanks and Cheers.
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Dick Kirkpatrick

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Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2009, 07:04:35 PM »
However you decide to make the material into an acceptable cap, you need to put on more than 4"
I have capped rocky rough grading with 5" (compacted) and the green superintendent informs me that he is breaking the tines on his aerifier.
It is also a good idea to install the irrigation and drainage systems before capping to eliminate most of the contamination caused by trenching.
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Norbert P

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Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2009, 09:44:28 PM »
Tony, I'm intrigued by your dilemma and interested in what you finally decide to use.

Here's a rockpicker that goes down a foot but doesn't crush anything -- just cleans out the rocks and debris.  I'm not sure what the maximum size of rock is that it drops back into the topsoil, though.  

  http://www.rocklandmfg.com/dealerdenpassprotect.html
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 10:31:05 PM by Slag Bandoon »
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"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Jim Thompson

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Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2009, 10:07:59 PM »
I'd wind row it with a rock rake, then go over the windrows with a barrel screener...
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Jim Thompson

Tony Ristola

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Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2009, 04:05:50 AM »
Quote from: Slag Bandoon on October 29, 2009, 09:44:28 PM
Tony, I'm intrigued by your dilemma and interested in what you finally decide to use.

Here's a rockpicker that goes down a foot but doesn't crush anything -- just cleans out the rocks and debris.  I'm not sure what the maximum size of rock is that it drops back into the topsoil, though.  

  http://www.rocklandmfg.com/dealerdenpassprotect.html

Hi Slag,

Was on a project back in 1990 when we used a pull behind stone picker (link below). Worked fine, but not quite suitable for this job.

Kivi Karhu (Stone Bear)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfMyGkFx4MM


Jim,

A portable barrel screener is what I've been planning to use. A power screen just isn't mobile enough.

Still looking for the ultimate crusher.


Thanks.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 05:49:33 AM by Tony Ristola »
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Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

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Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2009, 08:35:52 AM »
Tony
I've crushed stone in the past with a D8 but it was sandstone so although very abrasive it turned to powder pretty easily. I didn't mix it with topsoil but it did work out well for grading and saved a lot of cash in blasting etc. So I guess it will depend on what kind of rock you have. I've have heard of the rck buriers but from what I believe overtime the rocks rework themselves to the top causing problems later.

As for the 4" cap; I know a course that planned using 4" but ended up needing a minimum of 6" for grading and ensuring even coverage.
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Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Derek Dirksen

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Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2009, 09:00:54 AM »
Quote from: Jim_Kennedy on October 29, 2009, 06:03:41 PM
OK Tony, how about this? that'll be five bucks for my time.  ;D

http://www.equipmentworld.com/articles.aspx?a=2483&z=67

We used this machine in the building of the Patriot in Tulsa, OK.  The developers had one on site and we were able to demo it a few times.  The grinder saved my back a few times on the job.  It will break thru anything but it will not leave the desired finish.  It will only go into the ground about 6 to 8 inches.  To go deeper you would have to push to the side the 1st lift then grind again.  After 2 passes there are still rocks the size of baseballs (was solid rock from the start).  At best you would end of with a gravel like substance.

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Bill_McBride

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Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2009, 09:35:39 AM »
Quote from: Alan FitzGerald on October 30, 2009, 08:35:52 AM
Tony
I've crushed stone in the past with a D8 but it was sandstone so although very abrasive it turned to powder pretty easily. I didn't mix it with topsoil but it did work out well for grading and saved a lot of cash in blasting etc. So I guess it will depend on what kind of rock you have. I've have heard of the rck buriers but from what I believe overtime the rocks rework themselves to the top causing problems later.

As for the 4" cap; I know a course that planned using 4" but ended up needing a minimum of 6" for grading and ensuring even coverage.

In the 1960's somebody built a course at Hickam Air Force Base outside Honolulu.  This must have happened there, because there were little rocks throughout the fairways that had worked up through the grass.  Not good for the irons and no doubt no good for the mowers and other equipment.
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Adam Clayman

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Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2009, 10:19:27 AM »
Tony, I'll preface my remarks by admitting to knowing absolutely nothing.

However, here near the sand hills of Nebraska, they built a new nine in 1997 on ground that was a mix of sand, silt, and, old Platte River rocks. They clearly underestimated the need to improve the sub-grade, as today, the super has problems problems problems.

I've asked him about trying to add organics into the profile but he seems to think that won't do much, implying it all needed to be done before the nine holes were finished.

So, it's my attempt to warn you about the approach you seem to want to take to build a golf course. (If that is your premise)
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Joe Hancock

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Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2009, 10:52:26 AM »
Tony,

The site for Huntsman Springs(Driggs, ID) was nothing but cobble up to the size of watermelons. We capped the entire site with 6-9 inches of sand trucked in from a sand formation 30 miles away. It wasn't cheap.

But I wonder a couple things;

Is any machinery capable of conquering your predicament on bunker faces, greenside slopes and the like?

What amount of time would it take with one or two of the machines that could crushed the current material to produce a proper golf turf growing medium? Time is money, after all....

Is there a way to try out your process without committing to it, financially or otherwise? Is the site easily accessible to repairmen if an exotic piece of equipment is used?

All the best,

Joe

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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Lou_Duran

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Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2009, 11:10:53 AM »
Tony,

Though I am sure that there is a technical solution to your problem, albeit not an inexpensive one, I would be leary to proceed on a rocky site.  Cimarron Hills is a very good Nickalus design in Texas, but the thing I remember most about the course is the fear of hitting a rock on my swing.  I ruined a gap wedge from just off the fairway, and areas where the grass was a bit sparse well within the playing corridors, you could see rocks poking through the surface.  This course wasn't built on an austere budget, so I think building on rocky sites might be inherently problematic.

I don't know what the effect might be on bunker construction, but I play at two good daily-fees north of Dallas which were built on sites with considerable sandstone and maybe shale and the bunkers are in atrocious conditions.  Both seem to grow grass just fine.
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Rich Goodale

Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2009, 11:14:31 AM »
To add onto what Lou is saying, I think it was at Royal Aberdeen a few years ago that a woman hit a loose rock in deep rough which rebounded and took out one of her eyes.  Big lawsuit.  Caveat architector.
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Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2009, 11:42:18 AM »
Guys, this is the type of stuff I was seeking, with the hope there was somebody out there that had successfully used a crusher/pulverizer of some sort.

Keep the stories rolling.

Cheers and thanks.
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Norbert P

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Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2009, 01:44:32 PM »
 I cannot vouch for its efficacy but here's one I found Googling about.

  http://www.rdrademaker.com/rockcrusher.html

  BTW . . . What species of Fir trees?   Abies _______ .
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"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Jim Thompson

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Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2009, 01:47:10 PM »
Tony,

Don't know of any good way to crush to the particle size you're asking without having to resort to loading the exclusions from the barrel screener into a stationary unit. For those playing along at home, that would mean a dump site, a loader, a crusher, redelivery to site, incorporation into site (which would risk pulling up more stone) etc....  that's a bunch of added cost.  I've got a good friend who does specialty earth equipment and I'll fly your problem up the flagpole Saturday night.  I hope he'll have a good solution for you!

JT
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Jim Thompson

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2009, 06:35:50 AM »
Thank you everyone for your replies. Much appreciated. I hope it helps the investor make the best decision for his investment of millions.

After hearing about the crushing method, I spoke with three veteran engineer friends (100+ years experience combined). All said crushing/pulverizing was a no-go. I thought someone in golfclubatlas world may know something we missed. Either way, the investor would profit from the discussion.

Whether I land the project or not, I would hate to see the investor make a fatal error. As Adam’s warning goes:

“…it all need(ed) to be done before the… holes were finished”.

As we all know, it is costly and aggravating to close a course for repairs and/or fight with it for years to come. Then there is the cost or profit reputation brings. A two-edged sword:

Quote
•   94% of consumers trust Word of Mouth (source: Forrester)
•   84% of business buyers say Word of Mouth is the #1 influencer of purchase decisions (source: Forrester)
•   Word of Mouth marketing delivers a 15X ROI, three times higher than traditional marketing (source: Harvard Business Review)

“…millions of Advocates are spreading positive Word of Mouth about brands and products in face to face settings, such as offices, restaurants, golf courses....”

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS131648+30-Jun-2009+BW20090630


Should anyone come across a machine that works by driving over the surface… I’m all ears and eyes, but not holding my breath.

Have a great Sunday.








« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 06:42:32 AM by Tony Ristola »
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Norbert P

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Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2009, 10:28:58 PM »
Herr Ristola,  curious what you ever came up with for this dilemma.
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"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2009, 02:31:27 PM »
Quote from: Slag Bandoon on December 08, 2009, 10:28:58 PM
Herr Ristola,  curious what you ever came up with for this dilemma.

Thanks for all the responses, all were forwarded. Team GCA and some comments from retired engineer buddies gave them a lot to think about. Having never heard of the pulverizing of stone in that manner for fairway topsoil production, I was skeptical... the beauty of the internet and this forum. Would hate to see them make a monumental error that costs more down the line.

The bureaucracy is overburdened, so the start is shoved back a couple/few months.
Will let you know what happens.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 02:33:40 PM by Tony Ristola »
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Christoph Meister

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Re: Dear Colleagues
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2009, 05:00:14 PM »
Hi Tony,

I hope that you are doing fine - while I did some research for a golf club in Switzerland recently I found out that during the late 1950s when German Architect Bernhard von Limburger designed and built their 18 hole course he also had a problem. there with stones on the site. He and his builder found a potato harvesting machine ("Kartoffelerntemaschine") and modified it. The machine would collect the stones, put them on a conveyor belt ("Förderband") directly leading into a truck. I could find no picture of that machine/construction. Even though this was 50 years ago I thought it would interest you, but somehow forgot to tell you about it when we met in November.

Greetings

Christoph
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