[TEPaul]

"That change sounds like a pet project."

Pat:

I'm not sure what you mean by "pet project". That bunker was restored to something like it once was. Over the years it'd become pretty shallow. It's deeper now but in the middle of reconstruction it was decided that it was better to at least give a golfer whose ball was almost up against that back bunker wall something of a back swing towards the green instead of none at all. Believe me it's not an easy shot even with something of a backswing. I'm not sure how "often" golfers' balls get into that back bunker but that's really not the point. The decision was made about balls that do and will get back there.

[Bradley Anderson]

Given you choice, and understanding the confines of the site soil, which bunker configuration is more penal and which configuration do you prefer, and why ?

If I had to choose between one or the other, my preference would be based on the soils on the site.

Where clay soils are predominate, the flat sand bunker will have a much longer shelf life than the flashed sand bunker, owing to it's resistance to washouts and subsequent clay contamination. On sandier sites there are greater opportunities for any kind of bunkering without being too concerned with contamination. And it makes more sense to show exposed sand on slopes where sand is the native soil.

From a playability stand point both styles are important aren't they?

If I was building my own course, and I could choose from any model, I would mix it up, and use whatever works best for the terrain of the hole.

Sort of off the topic - I have never been to Myopia, but judging from the photos I have seen, that might be the best bunkered golf course in the America from the standpoint of variety. The bunkering on the 4th green is unbelievable. Why aren't those bunkers imitated anywhere else?

[John Moore II]

I agree with the idea about the bunkering should fit with the land the course is situated on. Sandy soil can lend itself to any types of bunkering. And I think that clay or firm subsoils can be great with flat bottomed bunkers, but not of the Pot bunker types. In that case, I think that a firm subsoil might not work, as the bunker may not drain.

[Jeff_Brauer]

In many ways, I agree with Bradley.  Flat bottom bunkers make a lot of sense in every way but one - the cape and bay bunkers that flash up are more attractive!

Despite being less attractive, flat bottomed bunkers with steep banks are gaining proponents among players, superintendents and golf course architects. In terms of maintenance, flat bottom bunkers offer many advantages where high rainfall washes sand on slopes or winds cause sand loss due to blowing.

While sand type and total slope affect the washing, there is little doubt that flatter bunkers minimize washing and sand contamination, providing there is no overland sheet flow coming over into the bunkers.   And many superintendents feel the hand mowing of banks is scheduled and easier than repeated, but unscheduled shoveling of sand back up the banks.  In fairway bunkers, growth retardants reduce work even further.

Better players often prefer flat bottom bunkers because they minimizes plugged lies better than a sloped Cape and Bay bunker.  And, shots missing the green by 5’ may plug in the bank of a Cape and Bay bunker, while one missing by more feet likely ends up in a more comfortable lie at the bunker bottom, which is exactly opposite of how the penalty generally ought to be.  The steep grass bank of a flat bottom bunker typically kicks the ball into the center of the bunker (unless left very shaggy) reducing occurrences of hanging lies compared to the Cape and Bay bunkers.  

Of course, if you want a truly penal bunker - which I don't hear a call for outside of gca.com - then any type of bunker, bunker sand, maintenance practice, etc. will do.......

[TEPaul]

"Sort of off the topic - I have never been to Myopia, but judging from the photos I have seen, that might be the best bunkered golf course in the America from the standpoint of variety. The bunkering on the 4th green is unbelievable. Why aren't those bunkers imitated anywhere else?"

Bradley:

You're right about that.

#4 is beautifully bunkered at the green-end but the real beauty of it is how it's arranged in relation to the natural grade green on that hole and what all that means playabilty-wise via strategy.

But if you think that one's impressive that way it may not even be in the top four or so on the course for really great bunkering in relation to the natural green topography.

With that kind of thing obviously the effect of it just zooms when they have that course running really F&F throughout as they certainly have been doing in the last few years.

I think the single bunkers on the low sides of the greens and fairly removed from the greens down slopes on #1 and #13 (that sit not far from each other on that long slope) are a couple of the most imaginative architectural applications in the world.

But again, it's F&F that completely highlights their function.

[TEPaul]

Bradley:

I hit a shot on that 13th hole last summer in a better-ball tournament that I thought was dead solid perfect because I knew exactly where the pin was because I looked at it when I teed off from #2.

The pin was back left and you know you can't even go long slightly into the fringe back there or your cooked.

I hit it just slightly right of the pin and I knew it wasn't long and I felt like I was going to have about a six foot birdie putt from just right of the pin.

My partner who belongs there told me it may be right in there but to just wait and watch for a bit down in the fairway.

So as we waited and watched he told me if we could see the ball on the green from down there I was cooked. About ten seconds later we could see the ball on the green and he was right---I was cooked bigtime!

[TEPaul]

Personally, I like sand flashed faced bunkers but I think I like bunkers even more that are grassed down and for a particular reason.

I think grassed down bunkers give bunkers that "shadowy" look from the golfer's perspective and that forces golfers to really concentrate and analyze more on what's out there in front of them. I think "shadowy" grassed faces just make golfers really interact with the whole course more than obvious and visible sand flashing does.

[Bill_McBride]

Personally, I like sand flashed faced bunkers but I think I like bunkers even more that are grassed down and for a particular reason.

I think grassed down bunkers give bunkers that "shadowy" look from the golfer's perspective and that forces golfers to really concentrate and analyze more on what's out there in front of them. I think "shadowy" grassed faces just make golfers really interact with the whole course more than obvious and visible sand flashing does.

Have to agree.  It's spectacular playing late in the afternoon at Pensacola CC when you're playing toward the west and all the bunkers are in the shadows.  Very cool.

[Phil Benedict]

Isn't there a song called Flat Bottomed Women?  First thing I thought of when I saw this thread.

[John Moore II]

Phil-Yes, the song is actually Fat Bottomed Girls, and thats the song by Queen that everyone has been going on about.--Sorry, yes I know I got it wrong at first.

[Joe Hancock]

"Flat Bottom Girls"?.....You guys are killing me....

 

[Joe Bausch]

(Spinal Tap has a tough time rivaling these lyrics!)

are you gonna take me home tonight?
oooh, down beside that red firelight;
are you gonna let it all hang out?
Fat bottomed girls,
You make the rockin' world go round.

Hey
I was just a skinny lad
Never knew no good from bad,
But I knew love before I left my nursery,
Left alone with big fat Fanny,
She was such a naughty nanny!
Hey big woman you made a bad boy out of me!
Hey, hey!

I've been singing with my band
Across the water, across the land,
I seen ev'ry blue eyed floozy on the way, hey
But their beauty and their style
Wear kind of smooth after a while.
Take me to them lardy ladies every time!

(C'mon)
Oh won't you take me home tonight?
Oh down beside your red firelight,
Oh and you give it all you got
Fat bottomed girls you make the rockin' world go round
Fat bottomed girls you make the rockin' world go round

Hey listen here,
Now I got mortgages on homes
I got stiffness in my bones
Ain't no beauty queens in this locality. (I tell ya!)
Oh, but I still get my pleasure
Still got my greatest treasure.
Heap big woman you done made a big man out-of me!
Now get this!

Oh, (i know),you gonna take me home tonight (please)
oh, down beside that red firelight
Oh, you gonna let it all hang out
Fat bottomed girls you make the rockin' world go round *(yeah)*
Fat bottomed girls you make the rockin' world go round
GET ON YOUR BIKES AND RIDE!

Oooh yeah oh yeah them fat bottomed girls
Fat bottomed girls
Yeah yeah yeah
all right
ride 'em cowboy
Fat bottomed girls
Yes yes

[Bradley Anderson]

TE Paul,

Some of those greens at Myopia look like they are built upside down if you take my meaning. The green appears to be at grade, and the bunkering appears to be culled out of all the ground around it. If a green is on even a slighgt summit so it can drain naturally, that kind of bunkering would only be a challenge to build insofar as the drainage tile would have to be dug really deep down. Other than that I don't see any reason why a hole like that would be too difficult to build. In fact I think it might be fairly easy to build.

It is such a great golf concept - I mean right up there with holes of legend e.g. Redan and Road Hole. I do not understand why it is not imitated elsewhere.

When you play those holes it must scar the crap out of you to hit at those greens, and yet they are so simple. At least thats how I percieve it.

I believe Robert White might have built those with Herbert Leeds instructions. Robert White went on to build a lot of his own courses and I think he was noted for building lots of bunkers. But he even he doesn't seem to have anything like these.

[TEPaul]

"The green appears to be at grade, and the bunkering appears to be culled out of all the ground around it. If a green is on even a slighgt summit so it can drain naturally,"

Bradley:

Probably close to half the greens of Myopia are just a matter of sheet drainage--slopes and such.

The bunkering is one of those interesting applications typical of some of those famous old amateur architects of that time who worked on a course for so long.

Leeds had a habit of dedicatedly interviewing the good players who passed through there and bunkering the place accordingly and then they say if he saw someone hit a ball somewhere and get away with it he would throw down a chip and the next thing you knew there was a bunker there.

Some said the course was too heavily bunkered under Leeds and not all of his originals are still there even after a bunker restoration project fairly recently.

#7 and #15 had some significant bunkers that aren't there now but to be honest with the lack of elasiticity on those two holes I don't think it would make that much sense to put them in again.

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