San Francisco GC

[David Stamm]

Rcik
Are you familiar with Billy Bell's bunkering?

They look like Bell bunkers to me.

[Joe Bausch]

I guess I should read threads more often at this web site! 

We know newspaper articles can be inaccurate, , but this 1938 snippet from an Oakland Tribune article suggests SFGC was a rebuild by Tilly.

[DMoriarty]

I guess I should read threads more often at this web site! 

We know newspaper articles can be inaccurate, , but this 1938 snippet from an Oakland Tribune article suggests SFGC was a rebuild by Tilly.

There you have it.  Indisputable proof that Tillinghast designed Pebble Beach.

[Mac Plumart]

There you have it.  Indisputable proof that Tillinghast designed Pebble Beach.

HILARIOUS!!!!!!!

[Joe Bausch]

Which is more inaccurate:

1. Early newspaper articles?

2. MLB umpires this post-season?

 

[DMoriarty]

Which is more inaccurate:

1. Early newspaper articles?

2. MLB umpires this post-season?

 

With the old newspaper articles I think the key is to figure out the source of the information, whether it be the club, a letter to members, a developer, or (as was often the case) information borrowed from another article.   The information is still inaccurate but at least you can figure out why.

As for this year's umpires, there is no reasonable explanation.   

[Sean_A]

Rick
The interesting thing about that photo those are Billy Bell's bunkers.

Tommy Mac

When you sat Billy Bell bunkers, does that mean you believe he planned their placement and created the look?  It seems to me these could very well be Billy Bell bunkers as planned by Tillie - which of course makes Tillie the archie and Bell very much in a supporting role.

Ciao   

[Rick Wolffe]

I saw Tom Doak's post earlier and I forgot to thank him for his great work at San Francisco...I had opportunity to play the course in October of 2007 for first time...had not played it pre-restoration...my golf was pretty disappointing, except for a birdie on the 14th hole...which me thinks is one of the original Tillinghast holes and greens that Doak reinstated along with 13 and 15...I don't have a current ground level photo to compare to Tilly's old 14th green to see how the contours compare...

As far as San Francisco's history, much is documented and hanging on the walls throughout the clubhouse...my tour of the clubhouse and the birdie on 14 were the highlights of my day there...they even have the pistols used in the famous Duel on display in the lockerroom!  Perhaps we can do a reinactment on this site with rude antagonists 

My birdie on 14 makes me think of the mysteries of golf...we have all had those experiences...the first and only time I played Quaker Ridge I holed out from 140 yards, 80 yards and 40 yards...not bad, three acorns for this blind chipmunk!  I can't wait to get up to Newport and play it for the first time.  I understand that within the last year or so they discovered an oversized water color of the current 18 holes,  sketched and designed by AWT, which is now hanging in their clubhouse!

[Tom MacWood]

Sean
Billy Bell redid the bunkers in 1930.

[Sean_A]

Sean
Billy Bell redid the bunkers in 1930.

Tommy Mac

What does redid mean?  Were they redone to a Tillie plan or to a Bell plan?  Was Bell hired by Tillie or the club as a separate part of design work?

Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

Billy Bell was hired by the club to resurface the greens and remodel the bunkers - complete with his trademark lacy edges. Speaking of the duel hole, here is a before and after Bell comparison.

Does anyone have a photo of the hole as it appears today?

[Kalen Braley]

I hope Bill S is OK with me using this pic from his site!! 

[Tom MacWood]

Interesting, I wonder what year Tom Doak was going for when he restored this hole.

[Sean_A]

Billy Bell was hired by the club to resurface the greens and remodel the bunkers - complete with his trademark lacy edges. Speaking of the duel hole, here is a before and after Bell comparison.

Does anyone have a photo of the hole as it appears today?

Tommy Mac

If this is the case, that is, if Bell used a load of existing bunkers and tarted them up, then one can't really say they Bell's bunkers - unless of course you think aesthetics is more important than bunker placement. 

BTW - what is up with that dopey bunker in the mound?  Bell should have rethought that one before calling it a day.

Ciao 

[Tom MacWood]

Sean
SFGC is world famous for the look of its bunkers and Bell is responsible for that look. It is often claimed that Tilly was unusual as an architect in that he built many different styles of bunkers, and most often SFGC is cited to prove that point. Somewhere on this site there is an aerial of the course post-Bell, it would be interesting to compare it to Tilly's plan circa 1924 to see how much Bell actually changed the bunkering.

[Sean_A]

Sean
SFGC is world famous for the look of its bunkers and Bell is responsible for that look. It is often claimed that Tilly was unusual as an architect in that he built many different styles of bunkers, and most often SFGC is cited to prove that point. Somewhere on this site there is an aerial of the course post-Bell, it would be interesting to compare it to Tilly's plan circa 1924 to see how much Bell actually changed the bunkering.

Tommy Mac

Strangely enough, I prefer the look of the old Duel green and bunkers.  What is the light coloured area to right and forward from the rear right bunker?  That is a massive wing back on that green!!!!  I also like l shape and the fact those hideous trees are gone in the old pic.   



Ciao

[TEPaul]

"Billy Bell was hired by the club to resurface the greens and remodel the bunkers - complete with his trademark lacy edges."

Really? I thought Billy Bell was a golf architect. I didn't know he was a superintendent too. It's amazing what you learn on this website.

Gil Hanse and some of his fellow travelers have their "chunking" method and style of bunkers and now I know Billy Bell had his lacy edged style. I wonder how he did that. Do you think he just glued a bunch of grass together and basically pasted it onto the surrounding edges?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom MacWood:

Actually I had never seen your post-Bell picture of the Duel Hole before.  I've seen the other pictures on this page, and I've seen Bell's bunker to the right on one of the aerial photos we have been working from.

The current version of the hole is a cross between the two.  The club had us put back the Bell bunker at the right front of the green last year, so it's not in the picture Kalen posted, but it IS there now and looks pretty close to your picture.  [Up until now, I had been hesitant to put that bunker back ... because I knew that it had come and gone, and because that has historically been a wet area subject to erosion in El Nino years as there is a LOT of water coming toward the green down #8 fairway.]  The current bunkers on the left are different, more like Tillinghast's version, as we have not really worked on those.

The Duel hole has been a particularly difficult one to work on because it's been changed so many times.  Someone completely flattened the green sometime between 1940 and 1970, perhaps after a flood event; then Sandy Tatum "restored" the green in the 1970's using the behind-the-green photo that Rick posted, but probably with a bit less contour than the original.  Naturally, nobody has wanted me to freelance new contours onto the green, so we've kept it pretty much as-is when we had to rebuild it.

In general, though, the bunkers we have restored are based on the aerial photo taken a few years after Billy Bell's work.  To the best of my knowledge, Bell did not alter the locations of bunkers tremendously, but it's tough to say with certainty since there is no aerial photograph of the course from before his work was done.

[Tom MacWood]

"Billy Bell was hired by the club to resurface the greens and remodel the bunkers - complete with his trademark lacy edges."

Really? I thought Billy Bell was a golf architect. I didn't know he was a superintendent too. It's amazing what you learn on this website.

Gil Hanse and some of his fellow travelers have their "chunking" method and style of bunkers and now I know Billy Bell had his lacy edged style. I wonder how he did that. Do you think he just glued a bunch of grass together and basically pasted it onto the surrounding edges?

TEP
I'm surprised you were not aware of Bell's background. I don't know how Bell created that affect; Simpson used a special tool to get his irregular lacy edge.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood:

Actually I had never seen your post-Bell picture of the Duel Hole before.  I've seen the other pictures on this page, and I've seen Bell's bunker to the right on one of the aerial photos we have been working from.

The current version of the hole is a cross between the two.  The club had us put back the Bell bunker at the right front of the green last year, so it's not in the picture Kalen posted, but it IS there now and looks pretty close to your picture.  [Up until now, I had been hesitant to put that bunker back ... because I knew that it had come and gone, and because that has historically been a wet area subject to erosion in El Nino years as there is a LOT of water coming toward the green down #8 fairway.]  The current bunkers on the left are different, more like Tillinghast's version, as we have not really worked on those.

The Duel hole has been a particularly difficult one to work on because it's been changed so many times.  Someone completely flattened the green sometime between 1940 and 1970, perhaps after a flood event; then Sandy Tatum "restored" the green in the 1970's using the behind-the-green photo that Rick posted, but probably with a bit less contour than the original.  Naturally, nobody has wanted me to freelance new contours onto the green, so we've kept it pretty much as-is when we had to rebuild it.

In general, though, the bunkers we have restored are based on the aerial photo taken a few years after Billy Bell's work.  To the best of my knowledge, Bell did not alter the locations of bunkers tremendously, but it's tough to say with certainty since there is no aerial photograph of the course from before his work was done.

TD
Can you post the old aerial?

[David Stamm]

Bell had also created a special tool to implement the bunkers he became known for. If I'm not mistaken, Hanse does alot of bunkers using a similiar technique. If memory serves, the area is sodded first then cut with the afore mentioned tool to acheive this look Bell did. 


TEP, Bell became the greenskeeper at Pasadena GC (now Alta Dena GC) in 1914 after serving as caddymaster there.

[Bill_McBride]

Bell had also created a special tool to implement the bunkers he became known for. If I'm not mistaken, Hanse does alot of bunkers using a similiar technique. If memory serves, the area is sodded first then cut with the afore mentioned tool to acheive this look Bell did. 


TEP, Bell became the greenskeeper at Pasadena GC (now Alta Dena GC) in 1914 after serving as caddymaster there.

I need to get into the George Thomas book to see if he gives any biographical or other info on Billy Bell Sr.  As I understand it, he was Thomas' construction superintendent on the West Coast courses until Thomas retired, and then became a prolific architect in his own right.  I don't know much about the difference between Bell Sr and Bell Jr courses.

[Tom_Doak]

Sorry, but I don't have a good copy of the aerial to post.  The original is a very large aerial photo that's in the superintendent's office.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I believe the Duel Hole is famous because I made a hole in one there.....and my famous post shot quote to my partners spread out all over the hole -"Yours are all good for two, boys!"

[David Stamm]

Bell had also created a special tool to implement the bunkers he became known for. If I'm not mistaken, Hanse does alot of bunkers using a similiar technique. If memory serves, the area is sodded first then cut with the afore mentioned tool to acheive this look Bell did. 


TEP, Bell became the greenskeeper at Pasadena GC (now Alta Dena GC) in 1914 after serving as caddymaster there.

I need to get into the George Thomas book to see if he gives any biographical or other info on Billy Bell Sr.  As I understand it, he was Thomas' construction superintendent on the West Coast courses until Thomas retired, and then became a prolific architect in his own right.  I don't know much about the difference between Bell Sr and Bell Jr courses.

Bill, Bell had actully served as foreman/construction supervisor for Willie Watson in the late teen's/early 20's before striking out on his own. It was when Bell had done Castlewood in Pleasanton that Thomas, after seeing the course, had asked Bell to join him and the great run began. Bell had done some solo efforts during this period, but the bulk of his time was devoted to the partnership that he and Thomas had formed. After Thomas died, Bell had continued to do solo efforts, but sadly, the bulk of which have been lost to urban expansion. Bell of course had done a few projects in short lived partnership with Tillinghast that produced Brookside in Pasadena and Virgina CC in Long Beach.