[Tom MacWood]

From what I gather Tilly redesigned an existing course at SFGC circa 1920. Does anyone know who designed the original golf course?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tilly did. "The famous golf course architect A.W. Tillinghast, was awarded the job of designing our club's new course which wasn't finished until 1918." That can be found in the Official History book of the San Francisco Golf Club published in 1978. It was written by members who researched their own archives and uinterviewed elderly members who were alive when the course was built.

In case there is any doubt, Tilly wrote that he was the course architect several times including in a 1936 letter from his PGA tour:
"I made a complete inspection of the course of the San Francisco Golf Club, and inasmuch as I planned this lay-out it may not seem entirely proper for me to praise it too much. But as it is regarded out here as a truly great course, I will string along..."

In 1920 he was back there doing other work. He visited the course several times for more work in the 1920s & 30s...

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

I am having trouble understanding how such an expert researcher like yourself couldn't know that Tillie designed SFCC and that it opened in 1918.   I suppose you are getting ready to post some obscure newpaper article or train schedule "proving" that someone else was involved, eh?  Perhaps some captain of industry/club president was the real genius?   

Just out of curiosity, when RW postulated that Burbeck deserved some credit for BPB, what was your position on that?  That Tillie deserved the credit even though there was a strong personality in charge of construction?  Or that Burbeck deserved the co-credit because of his contributions?  I could be wrong, but I thought you were in the Tillie camp then.  But, given your recent run of trying to credit others who may have been around, maybe you have changed your mind?

I'm not really trying to be snide, and there are always interesting attribution questions and methods that come into play, not to mention each course is different.  Nor do I have any real problem in digging deeper.  Maybe for some it would be interesting to see real details of who designed what.  At the same time, human nature means that "success has a thousand fathers".  To this day, I hear that so and so "built" XXX course when in reality, they ran a seeding tractor. 

It does make it difficult from 90 years later to ascertain exactly what went on, especially if you are of the mind set to both drill down for detail and possibly of the mindset to upset the apple cart. 

Short version - I enjoy the old articles you have found and post and applaud anyone willing to donate as much free time to the history of gca as you do.  However, I get the sneaky feeling this thread is meant to tweak Phil Young more than it is to discover any real truth about SFGC.  As always, JMHO.

[JMEvensky]

 

Short version - I enjoy the old articles you have found and post and applaud anyone willing to donate as much free time to the history of gca as you do.  However, I get the sneaky feeling this thread is meant to tweak Phil Young more than it is to discover any real truth about SFGC.  As always, JMHO.

+1000.

Shouldn't the premise of any Tillinghast argument be that Philip Young has done his historical due diligence?

[Chris_Blakely]

Tom,

I would love to see anything you have found.  I have found your reserach valuable even if it defers from others believe to be the historical fact(s) or defers from how they have presented the facts.

Chris

[Tom MacWood]

I thought it was pretty much common knowledge. It has been discussed on this site before, by Sean Tully and others. Here are some articles dealing with the redesign in 1920 - the first two articles are from 1920, the third from 1924:

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1920/gi126s.pdf

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1920/gi125v.pdf

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1924/gi212p.pdf

Does anyone know who designed the original golf course?

[Phil_the_Author]

 JM,

I really appreciate the support, but the answer is no. I am not the final answer on all things Tilly. I do have one of the most extensive archive collections of Tilly information. These include copies of plans, sketches, photographs, documents, correspondence and much more. For example, I would safely estimate that I have well in excess of 95% of everything that Tilly ever wrote. It is a MASSIVE amount and there are continuous discoveries of things in them that surprise me and I do share many of them on here.

An example. A couple of weeks ago I shared letter sent to the PGA by the President of the Congressional Country Club in 1937 in which he mentioned discussing with Tilly nine new holes that the club wanted to build. That was the first I had ever heard of it as far as I can remember despite having the copy of the letter in my possession for more than 6 years now. I started a thread about it thinking that it might interest some and lead to more info.

There also is nothing wrong with asking questions or even challenging long-held beliefs that a club may have about its history regardless of who has stated as previous fact what is now being challenged. Just last year I had the privilege to do this very thing with a Tilly club over a major piece of their history. Not only have they accepted the change, they are about to publish it. The club was greatly appreciative of the information and are thrilled to let their members know about it. The key to this was the manner in which the issue was handled. Too often on this site situations such as that are handled poorly; well-meaning, but poorly, leading to strained relations for anyone who desires to research at those clubs.

So, no, I am not the final answer, just one with resources that can help...

[JMEvensky]

Philip,not final--just the premise.

Put differently,as with any "historically researched" text,the burden of (dis)proof should be on those who come later.If facts/figures refute something previously published,the author should either explain the inconsistencies, admit error,and/or emend the text.

However,IMO,absent some compelling reason to gainsay the accuracy of presumably researched records,what's the motivation?

[Tom MacWood]

Here are couple of old theads where Sean Tully shared some of his findings:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,22706.0/

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35387.0/

JME
If you feel that strongly about individuals motivations and who should being doing what with historical reseach on this website, why don't you start a new thread?

[JMEvensky]

JME
If you feel that strongly about individuals motivations and who should being doing what with historical reseach on this website, why don't you start a new thread?

Probably because you'd just come over there and fuck it up.Why take up the extra bandwith?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Once again here is another club history that is wrong. Could you help us out and tell us which club histories, if any, are correct?

I am also familiar with Sean's research and these same articles... I corresponded with Sean about this issue nearly two years ago. Here is what he concluded. "Phil, regarding what you have written and knowing what I have on Tillie and SFGC leads me to believe to say that he was brought in at SFGC in Feb. 1920 and was asked to rework some of the holes. The members were not happy with the last 4-5 holes and wanted a stronger finish..."

In my opinion Sean is incorrect in his conclusions on several levels. First of all Tilly designed the entire course. We know this because he wrote that very thing several times. The work in 1920, as Sean would agree, was not that extensive and would certainly not be sufficient whereby Tilly would later write "I planned this lay-out." The fact is the course was only slightly extended if at all. We know this because the plans show a new course length of 6,280 yards, whereas in January 1919, it was reported in Golf Illustrated that the course measured 6,400 yards at that time.

Tilly also wrote that he reconstructed the course on SEVERAL occasions, facts that are also borne out by others. For example, in the April 1925 issue of Golf Illustrated. O.G. West, in his column "Golf on the Pacific Coast" wrote "at the San Francisco Golf and Country Club... remodeled by A.W. Tillinghast a year ago..." Sean agrees with this as well and made reference to some of these occasions in his email to me.

The second point at which I disagree with Sean is his statement that he was brought in by the club in February 1920. This simply cannot be. Regardless of any other proof, we know this because the "Our Green Committee" article which is referenced in Tom's comment is dated February 1920. The article states that the sketch is of one of the new holes that was currently under construction. It is unreasonable to believe that Tilly arrived on site in February, designed and drew out new holes, arranged for construction crews and could then write that the work was in progress for a publication that was released at the same time. That alone shows that Tilly was at SFGC earlier than most believe.

As I have previously stated, the club has done independent research and as clearly stated to me in email by one on the current Board, "The club stands behind the facts contained in its written history. The facts are correct."

There is nothing in any of these articles that contradict the fact that Tilly was there earlier and designed the original course. You are simply jumping to a wrong conclusion.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jm,

You wrote, "Put differently,as with any "historically researched" text,the burden of (dis)proof should be on those who come later.If facts/figures refute something previously published,the author should either explain the inconsistencies, admit error,and/or emend the text." I COMPLETELY agree.

"However,IMO,absent some compelling reason to gainsay the accuracy of presumably researched records,what's the motivation?" I'm unsure of whose motivation and in what regard you mean this question. Could you elaborate?

[Adam_Messix]

Is the current location of SFGC the only one in the club's history.  If memory serves, they moved to their current location from closer in town. 

I own a copy of the 1978 SFGC history book and will gladly reread it when I return home in a couple of weeks, it was pretty thorough and specific (despite it's relative lack of pages) from what I remember.

[David Stamm]

Philip, is it known if AWT visited any other sites or was offered any potential projects in Northern California while working on SFGC? It seems like an awfully long way to go for one project without the potential for addtional work, no?

[Phil_the_Author]

David,

He didn't have any other work that we know of in California at the time. We do know that he went throughout the South, Midwest and West seeking work beginning in the early teens and would continue doing so throughout his career. For example, in 1915 Tilly bid on over 100 design projects. He only got a small percentage of them.

Consider where all the great architects of that time worked and it is clear that they all did major traveling. What sets them apart from most of the otrhers is that the quality of the work they did was so outsatnding. As an example, consider where Mackenzie worked and when... those courses weren't all that close...

For Tilly, the potential for additional work in California was certainly there; for some reason he didn't get it...

[tlavin]

JM,

I really appreciate the support, but the answer is no. I am not the final answer on all things Tilly. I do have one of the most extensive archive collections of Tilly information. These include copies of plans, sketches, photographs, documents, correspondence and much more. For example, I would safely estimate that I have well in excess of 95% of everything that Tilly ever wrote. It is a MASSIVE amount and there are continuous discoveries of things in them that surprise me and I do share many of them on here.

An example. A couple of weeks ago I shared letter sent to the PGA by the President of the Congressional Country Club in 1937 in which he mentioned discussing with Tilly nine new holes that the club wanted to build. That was the first I had ever heard of it as far as I can remember despite having the copy of the letter in my possession for more than 6 years now. I started a thread about it thinking that it might interest some and lead to more info.

There also is nothing wrong with asking questions or even challenging long-held beliefs that a club may have about its history regardless of who has stated as previous fact what is now being challenged. Just last year I had the privilege to do this very thing with a Tilly club over a major piece of their history. Not only have they accepted the change, they are about to publish it. The club was greatly appreciative of the information and are thrilled to let their members know about it. The key to this was the manner in which the issue was handled. Too often on this site situations such as that are handled poorly; well-meaning, but poorly, leading to strained relations for anyone who desires to research at those clubs.

So, no, I am not the final answer, just one with resources that can help...

Sheesh, with this kind of equanimity, this thread could be both helpful and boring.  Seriously, though, I commend this attitude on this kind of issue which does tend to spark some animated banter that occasionally gets tedious.

[Bill_McBride]

JM,

I really appreciate the support, but the answer is no. I am not the final answer on all things Tilly. I do have one of the most extensive archive collections of Tilly information. These include copies of plans, sketches, photographs, documents, correspondence and much more. For example, I would safely estimate that I have well in excess of 95% of everything that Tilly ever wrote. It is a MASSIVE amount and there are continuous discoveries of things in them that surprise me and I do share many of them on here.

An example. A couple of weeks ago I shared letter sent to the PGA by the President of the Congressional Country Club in 1937 in which he mentioned discussing with Tilly nine new holes that the club wanted to build. That was the first I had ever heard of it as far as I can remember despite having the copy of the letter in my possession for more than 6 years now. I started a thread about it thinking that it might interest some and lead to more info.

There also is nothing wrong with asking questions or even challenging long-held beliefs that a club may have about its history regardless of who has stated as previous fact what is now being challenged. Just last year I had the privilege to do this very thing with a Tilly club over a major piece of their history. Not only have they accepted the change, they are about to publish it. The club was greatly appreciative of the information and are thrilled to let their members know about it. The key to this was the manner in which the issue was handled. Too often on this site situations such as that are handled poorly; well-meaning, but poorly, leading to strained relations for anyone who desires to research at those clubs.

So, no, I am not the final answer, just one with resources that can help...

Sheesh, with this kind of equanimity, this thread could be both helpful and boring.  Seriously, though, I commend this attitude on this kind of issue which does tend to spark some animated banter that occasionally gets tedious.

Terry, based on past experience, stick around.   

[Joel_Stewart]

Is the current location of SFGC the only one in the club's history.  If memory serves, they moved to their current location from closer in town. 

You're correct.  The original location was out by the Presidio and dates back into the 1800's.  I believe it was the first golf course in California.  I would like to know who that architect was.

[David_Tepper]

My understanding of the genesis of SFGC is that the club developed what is now the Presidio golf course, then developed and moved to a course (NLE) in the Ingleside district of the city and then developed and moved to its current location. If I am mistaken, I am sure someone will say so!    

[Tom MacWood]

I copied Sean's post and reasearch from a thread of few years ago. He also included a link to his website with some old pictures and maps:

"It has long been repeated that SFGC is a Tillinghast design dating 
back to 1915. In my short time researching the course I was able to 
find out a little more about the history of the course and some of 
the changes it went through.

The early history of the course is pretty confusing as little seems to be written about it. Along with that the names of the courses in the area shared similar names and added to some of the confusion.   When they moved from the Presidio to the SFG and CC at Ingleside site about 1905(where the SFSU is today) they stayed there for a number of years and then moved to the current site in 1918(while still retaining the same name). The old Ingleside course was then taken over by the California Golf Club in 1920 up  until they moved to their current location in 1925. The old Ingleside course remained until SFSU needed to expand the university in the early 1940's.

If that sounds confusing, that’s because it is and I still struggle with it even after looking at the info for the last 6 months...

heres some more info, most of this should be new if you only know the old story of Tillie designing the course in 1915. Source of information is from the SF Chronicle.

1915--new course proposed at current site of SFGC

1918--Feb 22 Course is opened to play...Willie Lock is given some 
mention as a possible architect, "Lock, the SFGC "pro" has seen to it 
that there is plenty of trouble to trap the balls that stray from the 
beaten path." I have also seen a mention of Neville&Grant.
Low score on the first day was 91.

1920-Tilllinghast brought in reform SFGC course, for the most part 
Tillie endorsed the the plans already outlined by Lock

1920-Tillinghast was to relieve the monotony of the last three holes 
and his plans along with those of Neville's where to be followed. Changed the routing of the existing course.

1924-Tillinghast is onsite and making a number of changes to the course
1.adding new bunkers(61 new bunkers)(GIJUNE1924)
2.changes to the greens at the 7th, 8th, and 11th
3. some lengthing of the course, par stays at 71
Tillie contemplates with addition of bunkers and yardage the course 
will be a stiffer test of par.

1930-Excess traps removed from course
greens regrassed with cocoos bent replacing the poa and Fescue
"all greens being recontoured so as to allow for a power cutter to 
be used right up to the green"(sounds more like surrounds)

The first green was moved after the club purchased some adjoining property.

All but three greens were regrassed (2nd, 10th, 12th)

Par threes length
4th    210 yards
7th    150
11th  165
13th  120

Sept. 1930 course to be finished.
William P. Bell and E. Byrne-Cavendish completed work.

Your first thought should be bunkers!

Not surprising that Bell was involved, as he was a partner of Tillie's for a period of time. Although Bell was involved he was following the plans as set forth by Tillie. Except for what I believe was the reconstruction of the remaining bunkers. The bunkers have been 
misinterpreted as Tillie's as he has been given credit for the entire course. It is obvious through my research that Tillie played a big part in the courses evolution, but had some help from his friends.

I  had always struggled with the bunkers at SFGC and how they had the lacy edge look to them in 1918! and had lost that look already by the 1924 pics. When I finally looked at the dates for the article in the book "The Course Beautiful"  I found the piece of info that I had been missing, the dates for the lacy edge bunkers. They were taken in the early 1930's, with that info and the article on Bell's work at SFGC in 1930 I finally understood for me at least, that the bunkers that have been called  Tillie's are actually Bell's, which makes a lot more sense anyway as seen by his work in SoCal ie Riviera.

There is more info to be found, but I thought I should share the info so credit can be shared with the people that were involved. So here is my early and still under construction timeline for SFGC

1915-1918---course goes from planning  opened in Feb 1918
Design credit William Lock.

1920---Tillinghast brought in to renovate the course and add some value to the last three holes. Tillinghast is paid $2500 dollars a week. As a comparison, Ross was said to have asked for $2600 to work at Beresford but his schedule was full for a year and a half. He would not make it there until 1922.

1924---Tillie brought in to toughen up the course adds bunkers, changes to some greens etc. Adds 61 new bunkers to course.UPDATED

1925---Vernon Macan writes an article for the Fairway Magazine referring to the 12th hole at SFGC and mentions that the green is not in view from the fairway and that the large mound in front should be opened up to allow a site line to the green. Not sure who finally did it, but interesting information.

1930---Course changes overseen by Bell

1949-50 Harold Sampson's plan dated December 13, 1949.  His work most likely done in the spring of 1950.UPDATED---Re-recorrection Tom D.

1951-2005---not sure if anything at all happened here, time frame is not my focus of research

2006---Club is in process of restoring holes back to original design work overseen by Tom Doak/Jim Urbina and crew.

I have some pics and early maps at the following link…

http://homepage.mac.com/tullfescue/PhotoAlbum5.html

UPDATED, I added a picture of the 13th from 1926. Compare that with the 1934 timeframe pic."

[Tom MacWood]

JME
If you feel that strongly about individuals motivations and who should being doing what with historical reseach on this website, why don't you start a new thread?

Probably because you'd just come over there and fuck it up.Why take up the extra bandwith?

Speaking of which...thank you for your input on this thread.

[Phil_the_Author]

David,

Your understanding is correct as far as I know. In June 1913 the American Golfer reported that the club was planning on purchasing a tract of some 150 acres "southward of Lake Merced. The land on which the club now plays is leased from the Spring Valley Water Company, but will soon become so valuable that the club will have to move..."

This eventuality found fruition in 1915. The Club History states that "It was the same year [1915] that the Spring Valley Waqter Company announced that the lease on the land which contained the new course would not be renewed. With typical aplomb Club leadership started negotiating for the lease of 146 acres south of the old ingleside course and for the purchase of four acres upon which our present clubhouse, caddie house, automobile sheds and outbuildings were later constructed. This placed the Club on the more spacious lands of the former Rancho Laguna de Las Merced (Our Lady of Mercy)..."

[Tom MacWood]

Phil
Have you found any evidence of Tilly being in San Francisco anytime between 1915 and 1918?

[Phil_the_Author]

Yes.

[Joel_Stewart]

1925---Vernon Macan writes an article for the Fairway Magazine referring to the 12th hole at SFGC and mentions that the green is not in view from the fairway and that the large mound in front should be opened up to allow a site line to the green. Not sure who finally did it, but interesting information.

I was told it was done by the chairman of the greens committee.  My favorite hole on the course.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()