What's the first golf course built w/ a CAD plan?

[WilliamWang]

I guess in this day and age CAD building/grading/routing plans are ubiquitous, but what was the first course built this way.  And, do any archies here think that CAD has influenced modern design negatively/positively?

For example, fairway contours seem greatly influenced by CAD (also by construction equipment).

Sorry if this post is something that's been rehashed/tedious.

Will

[TEPaul]

The first course ever done by CAD system is called Las Vegas National G.C. It was done by Tom Fazio in Newfoundland some time ago now for a client with unusual demands. It's unbelievably exclusive--many have looked for it but few have been able to find it.

It apparently looks almost exactly like the site that Shadow Creek was on before Wynn bought the place and Faz turned it into a piece of North Carolina in the Nevada desert.

Las Vegas National in Newfoundland cost about $79 million to do (in 1981 dollars)! 190 million cubic yards of Las Vegas desert sand was flown in by a fleet of leased US Government C-130 cargo planes.

The word is the course is stunning--one of the most unusual juxtapositions golf architecture has ever known with the desert in Newfoundland. There are some Golf Digest raters who although they haven't been there have seen a single snap shot of it and suspect it might be the #1 course in the world. And they are almost completely convinced that if they can ever find it and play it that it definitely will be ranked #1 in the World.

And all completely done by CAD--the first one in fact! Who would have thought it but Faz?--the man to who anything is possible and in architecture believes you should never look back!

[Richard Mandell]

William:

I have used Autocad for all my golf course construction drawings since 1992 and the biggest concern people have with CAD drawings is the way that the final product may look.  Does it appear antiseptic, unnatural, etc.?  The only impact CAD should have on design is in the efficiencies of production and not on the final product.  

(A) If you are talented enough with CAD, you can create natural appearing and interesting lines.

(B)  CAD does not do design at all, it is all about the input from the designer.  There used to be this Intergraph product and the sales people would call me and talk about how this software would spit out a routing based on the topo and property line of a site.  He thought it was the future of design.  I doubt there has ever been a golf course built with an Intergraph routing, or at least I hope not.

(C)  Lastly, if anything gets to the field with a "computer look", then hopefully the Architect and shapers will make field adjustments.

I think CAD has had a positive influence on design in its ability to allow more efficiency during production, but never on the actual design of a golf course directly.

[Richard Mandell]

William:

I have used Autocad for all my golf course construction drawings since 1992 and the biggest concern people have with CAD drawings is the way that the final product may look.  Does it appear antiseptic, unnatural, etc.?  The only impact CAD should have on design is in the efficiencies of production and not on the final product.  

(A) If you are talented enough with CAD, you can create natural appearing and interesting lines.

(B)  CAD does not do design at all, it is all about the input from the designer.  There used to be this Intergraph product and the sales people would call me and talk about how this software would spit out a routing based on the topo and property line of a site.  He thought it was the future of design.  I doubt there has ever been a golf course built with an Intergraph routing, or at least I hope not.

(C)  Lastly, if anything gets to the field with a "computer look", then hopefully the Architect and shapers will make field adjustments.

I think CAD has had a positive influence on design in its ability to allow more efficiency during production, but never on the actual design of a golf course directly.

[WilliamWang]

LOL, what a reply from the doyen.

Richard-
First of all, I'm not sure when CAD was introduced, but I always thought it was earlier than the 1990s.  When CAD was first being introduced into golf course design, did it have unintended effects?  Where there architects who liked the look of something more artificial or sterile?  And did they then use the CAD designs to achieve that desired look?

[Glenn Muckley]

If there were problems with architecture
when CAD was introduced it was due to
sterile, artificial designers not CAD.
CAD is tool, just like a pencil.  Its only
limitations lie in the imagination of the designer.
One can communicate any desired design trait
with CAD, if only he has the imagination.
Also, most architects still "design" on paper.
CAD is mainly utilized as a production tool.

[Jeremy Glenn. (Guest)]

William,

I wrote a little doo-dah on AutoCAD for this website a while back.  Click on the "In my Opinion" section in the left side menu, and see if it's still there.

[Richard Chamberlain]

I certainly echo Glenn's comments.

I've been punching design data into Cad systems since 1988 and NOT ONE design contour, centreline, bunker, tee, etc etc has ever been created by the softwate.
The designer simply hands me a design "rough' and instructs me to reproduce this in digital format for transfer to other consultants, calc the earthworks, and maybe produce some 3D imagery.

Mind you, while Cad will NEVER be able to design of a golf course, its a damn powerful tool for checking the workability of the manual method.

[WilliamWang]

thanks to the archies for their patience in explaining things.  thanks also to jeremy, that's a really informative IMO piece you wrote.  and lastly, thanks to TEPaul, for a good laugh.

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

Dr Kildare- what other programs besides cad do you use in the Sat Golf biz?  What program do you like for 3D imaging, rendering color and realistic trees etc?

[Richard Chamberlain]

RC

I use Microstation, the best Cad software program I have ever seen.

Microstation in its basic form, allows us to produce all our working drawings and the 3D imagery. No plug in's required.

Geopak is the civil software that operates within Microstation, and this builds Digital Terrain Models from the contour data. These DTM's are the foundation for all earthworks calcs, site analysis tools, and imagery.

I recently did some work for a designer that was proposing some alterations to an existing golf course. Portraying his ideas to the members was critical in deciding whether the changes would be adopted by the club.

As no design contours had been produced, I only had sketch form graphics to base it on.
Existing photographs were taken of some of the golf holes under consideration and ADOBE PHOTOSHOP was used to manipulate the photos to portray the designers intent.

The before/after photos were projected onto a big screen during an information evening for members and the outcome was a unanimous thumbs up.

They pretty much were the same result as a good artists sketch but the site accuracy was maintained as actual photos were used as the framework.

I suppose what i'm getting at here, is that these software tools are now available to designers, and being able to portray his design ideas to committees and members is becoming far more necessary to "sell' the project

[Mike_Young]

Rich,
How are you doing?
As Dr. Kildare says Microstation is the way to go.  I had a gold design program written to go on Microstation several years ago and it does everything in a very "natural manner".  Rich, this program used to be called "Intergraph".  It has greatly improved.