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TEPaul

"And again, TEPaul, while it is still none of your business, I did go to "Merion" before I allowed my essay to be posted."


Is that right Moriarty?

Well, first of all, let's establish the fact that YOU brought up the subject of Merion on this thread and not me. OK?

Next, you say you went to "Merion" before you allowed your essay to get posted?? By the way, why the hell did you put Merion in quotation marks in that statement above? Is that one of the dumb tricks that semi-failed lawyers engage in to obfuscate meaning?   ;)

You didn't establish even a modicum of a research relationship with Merion---you know that damn well---and so do I; so does Wayne, and we both know the administrators of Merion who know that as well! You both tried to get access to material after the fact and both of you, true to form as complete failures in commonsense, were total failures again in that attempt. MacWood, true to his self-centered form, actually tried to sell you and your revisionist essay down the river in his attempt to make research contact with Merion. With friends like that guy, what are enemies for? The both of you should have gone directly to Merion first before taking on some of us around here first who know that club and course and its architectural history well and who are members like Wayne. There wasn't a single thing either of you did right as numerous other independent researchers/writers of club histories have done right before you such as Labbance, Klein, Young, Quirin, Shackelford, Wexler, and others too numerous to mention have before you.

We, and that club, were actually looking forward to a great essay of theretofore unrealized information and analysis but your "The Missing Faces of Merion" was not only an abysmmal failure in that regard, it became and instant joke as you, and MacWood, have too since then!
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 12:32:06 AM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
1.  Every post of yours is about Merion these days.  Whether you say the word or not.  
2.  I knew what the Merion "researchers" had.  Much less than I had; just a couple of insecure assholes guarding the gate.   I made the right decision.
3.   It wasn't until after my essay - when I virtually had to draw Wayne a map to MCC - that he finally bothered to check there for documents.  
4.   Wayne was representing Merion, and he screwed me over and the club.   And because of that Merion's history remains inaccurate and incomplete.
5.    Even now you guys are so insecure in your own abilities that you have to hide your sources for fear of being made fools of yet again.   How that is good for Merion I'll never know but I guess blue blood must run deep.  

TomM tried to sell me out?   Did he tell Merion that I was pretty good researcher but was pretty damn dimwitted when it came to analysis?   Oh wait, I'm confused . . . That is what you told me about Wayne after my essay came out. Remember, when you were trying to convince me to let you glom on to my work?  Frankly, with the way your mind is going I think Wayne has defaulted into being the brains of the operation.  

But enough about Merion.  Let's get back to you making a mockery of Travis and CBM.  

« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 01:21:08 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

"Let's get back to you making a mockery of Travis and CBM."  





I don't view discussing a most interesting article in the British Golf Illustrated magazine in Nov 1901 by Walter Travis in which he explains the holes abroad he admires and then explains most all the courses in America at the time were on the order of kindergarten and designed towards mediocrity and then going on in the same article to say; "It is high time we awoke to a proper and appreciative realization of what real golf is, and constructed our courses accordingly" as mockery towards either Travis or Macdonald.

I think it is particularly significant because at that time Macdonald had not gone abroad yet to study architecture and that at that time seems to have only been familiar with TOC, Hoylake, Wimbleton and a course by the name of Coldburn Commons he would later call ‘the worst excuse for a golf course I have ever seen in my life.’

Maybe you think that information and discussing the significance of it on here is making a mockery of Travis and Macdonald but I don’t. Frankly, I think it is most interesting information which I would wager very few, if any, on this website ever knew before (I know I never knew that before), not to even mention the fact that Macdonald would call on Travis five years later to be one of two to serve on the committee with him to design NGLA.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 09:37:48 AM by TEPaul »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
What you do know TEP, and what has been explained very well in regards to this article, is that CBM already held the opinion expressed by Travis at that time. The real importance of the article is that it shows great minds thinking alike.......and what you also know is that you are the only one who thinks the article "is making a mockery of Travis and Macdonald". You might like everyone else to hold that view, but it's strictly yours.


Pat,
I'd say that my earlier post pretty much sums up my opinion so far, that the Dunn/Travis arrangement was somewhat like our modern version of architect/player combo. I would add that I feel Travis was handed a mostly complete package by Dunn, and that he put finishing touches on it.

I don't see where it would have been necessary for Bob Labbance to elevate him, Travis' story was already large.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 10:46:46 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0

I think it is particularly significant because at that time Macdonald had not gone abroad yet to study architecture and that at that time seems to have only been familiar with TOC, Hoylake, Wimbleton and a course by the name of Coldburn Commons he would later call ‘the worst excuse for a golf course I have ever seen in my life.’

Maybe you think that information and discussing the significance of it on here is making a mockery of Travis and Macdonald but I don’t. Frankly, I think it is most interesting information which I would wager very few, if any, on this website ever knew before (I know I never knew that before), not to even mention the fact that Macdonald would call on Travis five years later to be one of two to serve on the committee with him to design NGLA.


TEP
First you tried to make the case that Travis inspired the Best Hole Discussion (WRONG), then you tried to make the case Travis was the first to advocate templates (WRONG), and then finally you claimed CBM didn't have much playing experience in Britain (WRONG). Give it a rest, you are not doing your reputation and Wayne's reputation any good. What objectivity you had appears to be completely gone.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 12:13:23 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

"What you do know TEP, and what has been explained very well in regards to this article, is that CBM already held the opinion expressed by Travis at that time."


Jim Kennedy:

Did he? If he held that opinion ON or BEFORE the middle of 1901(when Travis went abroad on what Macdonald called a "golfing pilgrimage") I would love to see where he said what Travis did about all those holes abroad. I don't see him saying what Travis did in that December 1897 article he wrote while living in Chicago and that he refers to and quotes a portion of in his book "Scotland's Gift Golf." However, he obviously just quotes a portion of that article in his autobiography that he wrote in 1928 so maybe he said a lot more in that 1897 article that I'm not aware of.

On the other hand, it seems to be true that before his first of three study trips abroad in 1902 Macdonald (the other two coming in 1904 and 1906)was only familiar with a few courses abroad, which according to his own book, his autobiography (written in 1928), only included TOC, Hoylake, Wimbelton and some course called Coldburn Commons which he said was the worst excuse for a golf course he'd ever seen in his life.

But if you can show me where he said what Travis did in that British Golf Illustrated magazine in Nov. 1901 ON or BEFORE Travis did I would love to see it and that is precisely why I asked a few days ago on this thread if anyone could produce that article from 1897 or some other like it in which Macdonald talked about numerous holes and courses abroad and using their ideas over here BEFORE Travis did in 1901.

I have a pretty long run of The Golfer magazine from 1895 on for some years on my computer and I have Outing magazine too. I'll go through them all today or tomorrow to see if that is where that 1897 article he refers to in his book was published in which Macdonald may've mentioned more about architecture abroad than he did in his autobiography.

It also might be because Macdonald did write in The Golfer magazine in 1895 that that magazine wrote about him and the fact that he had only played golf abroad in 1879 and 1884. Maybe they were wrong about that but one wonders where they could possibly have gotten that information except from Macdonald himself who wrote an article in the very same issue about the format of the US Amateur.

But again if you or anyone else can show me where Macdonald wrote about the numerous courses and holes abroad ON or BEFORE Travis did in 1901 I would be very happy to see it and will change my opinion about this particular subject accordingly. But in the meantime, it sort of appears to me that you and some others on here are attempting to quash this subject and the discussion of it before even attempting to produce any information that would significantly reflect upon it.

Why is that? Are you afraid of some potential truth that might change what we have heretofore known or believed about Macdonald and his knowledge of GB architecture at a particular point in time? ;)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 12:00:51 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
But if you can show me where he said what Travis did in that British Golf Illustrated magazine in Nov. 1901 I would love to see it and that is precisely why I asked a few days ago on this thread if anyone could produce that article from 1897 or some other like it in which Macdonald talked about numerous holes and courses abroad and using their ideas over here BEFORE Travis did in 1901.


I more reasonable place for you to start would be by identifying where Travis wrote about using the ideas of these particular holes over here.   He does not in the 1901 article that Wayne found for you, but as usual you let facts get in the way of your mission to distort. 

I have the CBM article he referenced in Scotland's gift, but find it fascinating that you would cite it in your Walker Cup article without bothering to even look at it first, and without bothering to identify that you were relying on a mere mention of it and not the real thing.  It seems you tried to create the impression that you had actually done research, but those who know you know better.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

"....and then finally you claimed CBM didn't have much playing experience in Britain (WRONG)."


Tom MacWood:

No problem at all. But for starters, can you document for me WHERE Macdonald played golf abroad before 1902 other than the courses he seems to comprehensively chronicle and mention in his autobiography which appear to be TOC, Hoylake, Wimbleton and a course called Coldburn Commons that he mentioned was the worst excuse for a golf course he had ever seen in his life?

Apparently this very lack of play of many courses during those years is precisely why he called those years his "Dark Age."  ;) I guess I just never really thought to consider how dark it really was for his familiarity with GB or European golf couses and architecture before his first study trip ABROAD in 1902, which again was after Travis' "golfing pilgrimage" in which he mentioned in that British Golf Illustrated Nov 1901 article the numerous GB courses and about forty holes he admired.

Other than TOC and Hoylake had Macdonald ever even seen any of the rest of those courses and holes Travis mentioned in that 1901 article? We do know from Macdonald himself that he never saw North Berwick before 1906! I think that's pretty interesting considering Travis saw it and played it in 1901. Not a small point since NB contains the famous redan hole!
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 12:12:30 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

"I have the CBM article he referenced in Scotland's gift, but find it fascinating that you would cite it in your Walker Cup article without bothering to even look at it first, and without bothering to identify that you were relying on a mere mention of it and not the real thing.  It seems you tried to create the impression that you had actually done research, but those who know you know better."




In that Walker Cup program article I quoted Macdonald's own quotation from that 1897 article from his own autobiography. Do you think there is something inaccurate or wrong about quoting Macdonald's quotation in his own autobiography of his own article in an 1897 publication?   ::) ???

Some of the foolishness you spew on some of these threads, Moriarty, is just getting funnier as time goes on and as you apparently get more desperate to defend some point that has never been particularly clear anyway! It seems to be argumentation just for the sake of arguing and very little else of any worth. ;)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 12:22:48 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
"....and then finally you claimed CBM didn't have much playing experience in Britain (WRONG)."


Tom MacWood:

No problem at all. But for starters, can you document for me WHERE Macdonald played golf abroad before 1902 other than the courses he seems to comprehensively chronicle and mention in his autobiography which appear to be TOC, Hoylake, Wimbleton and a course called Coldburn Commons that he mentioned was the worst excuse for a golf course he had ever seen in his life?

Apparently this very lack of play of many courses during those years is precisely why he called those years his "Dark Age."  ;) I guess I just never really thought to consider how dark it really was for his familiarity with GB or European golf couses and architecture before his first study trip ABROAD in 1902, which again was after Travis' "golfing pilgrimage" in which he mentioned in that British Golf Illustrated Nov 1901 article the numerous GB courses and about forty holes he admired.

Other than TOC and Hoylake had Macdonald ever even seen any of the rest of those courses and holes Travis mentioned in that 1901 article? We do know from Macdonald himself that he never saw North Berwick before 1906! I think that's pretty interesting considering Travis saw it and played it in 1901. Not a small point since NB contains the famous redan hole!

TEP
If there was one golf course in the world you would have a student of golf architecture visit during late 19th and early 20th C. which one would it be? Not only did CBM have extensive experience on TOC, he spent a great deal of time at Hoylake, also in the top three or four links in the world at the time.

Can give you give me the name of an American who had more experience on the British links in 1870s, 1880s and 1890s than CBM? I asked you this question before and you did not answer it.

How is the history of golf architecture altered if CBM first played North Berwick in 1892 or 1906? I asked this question before and you did not answer it.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
1.  The period covered in the passage you keep referring to ends in 1892, not 1902.   He maid multiple trips abroad between 1892 and 1902.

2.  As for his trips pre 1892, he noted that he stayed multiple times (and for extended periods) at at the Hotel near Hoylake and golfed every day.   But he does NOT write that he only golfed at Hoylake.  

3.  While he discussed going to North Berwick in 1906 and asking many questions of the oldest caddy, I am not sure why you keep saying that was his first trip there.   Can you please identify exactly where CBM wrote his first trip there was in 1906?

4.   Where does travis write that he had actually seen the courses he mentioned?   I've only found record of him playing 4 courses on this trip.   Please enlighten us on how you KNOW he played the courses he listed.  Obviously listing out famous holes in not enough to establish he played them.

5.  What is your point, if you have one?   I know it has changed with almost every post, but in a sentence or two (not a rambling and repetitious paragraph or two) what is your point?  



In that Walker Cup program article I quoted Macdonald's own quotation from that 1897 article from his own autobiography. Do you think there is something inaccurate or wrong about quoting Macdonald's quotation in his own autobiography of his own article in an 1897 publication?   ::) ???


Of course I do!   Because that is NOT THE WAY YOU PRESENTED THE QUOTE IN THE ARTICLE.  You didn't tell us that all you bothered to do was look at his book, and you cannot pretend to be quoting an actual article when all you are quoting is someone else quoting an article.  This is the same problem you always have and a very basic and fundamental problem.   You cannot rely on secondary sources as if they are primary sources!   You cannot pretend you have seen the original (which using it without proper citation implies) when really you have only seen someone else telling you what the original said.   Yet you rely in this snippet for your conclusions without bothering to look at the rest of the article.  

And by the way, you quote the 1897 passage as if it were a guideline to what CBM was to do at NGLA; yet know you pretend that the 1897 article had nothing to do with what CBM ultimately did at NGLA.   Your usual duplicitiousness.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Matter of fact, while doing some research for that Walker Cup program article I believe I made a fascinating discovery that I think sheds a good deal of heretofore unrealized light on Macdonald's life and times I sure didn't know before about Macdonald. The article was entitled "Merion's Hugh I. Wilson and the Age of the Amateur/Sportsman Architect" and it mentioned and covered about 6-7 architects including C.B. Macdonald. In it I used his famous remark, "...It makes the very soul of golf shriek" but until this year I had not realized what I now believe he was referring to and when.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 05:45:42 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Matter of fact, while doing some research for that Walker Cup program article I believe a made a fascinating discovery that I think sheds a good deal of heretofore unrealized light on Macdonald's life and times I sure didn't know before about Macdonald. The article was entitled "Merion's Hugh I. Wilson and the Age of the Amateur/Sportsman Architect" and it mentioned and covered about 6-7 architects including C.B. Macdonald. In it I used his famous remark, "...It makes the very soul of golf shriek" but until this year I had not realized what I now believe he was referring to and when.

Yes, and the fact that you did not realize this until then goes to show how little you understand about CBM and what he was writing.   All one need do is read the description of the greens he is describing to see that he is not talking about geometric architecture.   As usual, your discoveries come about 7 years after the rest of us have already moved on.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

".......yet know you pretend that the 1897 article had nothing to do with what CBM ultimately did at NGLA."


I have never said on here or anywhere else that 1897 article had NOTHING to do with what CBM ultimately did at NGLA. Of course that article had something to do with what he did at NGLA and that quotation from that 1897 article at least explains some of what it did have to do with NGLA.

Where did you come up with that idea that I said that 1897 article had NOTHING to do what Macdonald did later at NGLA other than your own outright misinterpretation? Show me where I said that 1897 article had NOTHING to do with what CBM ultimately did at NGLA?

What I did say on here is it seems very possible that Travis came up with or became familiar with a good deal more of good GB architecture that could be emulated for its features or architectural principles or for its ideas to improve architecture in America BEFORE Macdonald did. The reason was in 1901 Macdonald just wasn't personally familiar with any of it other than his knowledge of TOC and Hoylake (or at least that seems to be the case from his autobiography when he listed the courses and holes he actually had played before he went abroad for his first study trip in 1902).

Sure, he could probably see in that "Best Hole Discussion" in 1901 that the redan of North Berwick was voted as one of the best par 3s in GB but the point is Macdonald would not actually see the redan for the first time and become familiar with it until 1906!
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 01:04:07 PM by TEPaul »

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
When did the hole at Biarritz change that supposedly inspired CBM for his template?
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
TEPaul,

Look what you have done with this thread.  You have taken an interesting discussion and turned it into a wild goose chase that obviously has no merit whatsoever to anyone with even the most basic understanding of golf course design.    Travis said nothing at all novel in that article.  Others had been saying the same thing.   Four years before, Whigham had advocated modeling courses in america after courses abroad.  There is no point to your inferences as far as I can tell, and even if they were supportable, they change nothing!  

You are like a toddler in an upper division university symposium only worse, because you insist on dominating the conversation. So it has become pointless for the rest of us.

________________________________________________

David Stamm,

Not sure I understand your question, but the evolution of that concept is probably worth its own thread.

So where is the answer to my MacKenzie questions?   Maybe that would get the conversation moving in a better direction . . .
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 01:13:31 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Biarritz question was posed because I thought it would be worth establishing the template concepts used at NGLA and when he might have seen them. Even though Brancaster, North Berwick, Prestwick, etc aren't mentioned in his book, we know he went to these places.


Now, as far MacKenzie and Macdonald comparisons, while both claim to have thought St Andrews to be the very best, I don't think AM went out of his way to try and duplicate anything from the UK, while CBM would look for the best areas of the property to implement a template, and if substantial earth had to be moved, he would. There are certain features on AM's courses that I think he had perhaps some features from overseas in mind, such as the 14th fw "trench" feature at Pasatiempo, but it was much more subtle. I don't think AM tried to compete with courses such as SA, whereas CBM tried to emulate or even tried to improve upon the original concept.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

TEPaul

"Four years before, Whigham had advocated modeling courses in america after courses abroad."


Did he indeed? In that case I would very much like to see exactly what Whigam said about that? Can you produce it? If you can and we can look at it to see if Whigam actually said that four years before (four years before WHAT or WHEN?) as Travis did in that British Golf Illustrated magazine in Nov 1901 then I believe Whigam should probably be given a whole lot more credit for truly INFLUENCING Macdonald's later ideas for NGLA in the context of emulating GB architecture, perhaps even a great deal more credit than should go to Travis for influencing Macdonald in that vein because I think it is looking more and more likely that CBM had very limited personal knowledge of architecture abroad before 1902 other than TOC and Hoylake (If CBM emulated anything at NGLA from Wimbleton GC I'm not aware of it and I doubt he emulated any of the architecture at NGLA of that other course he mentioned he had played, Colburn Commons, since he did say it was the worst excuse for a golf course he had ever seen in his life!  ;) ).

It would certainly make sense too if Whigam actually said that four years before since Whigam was a natural born Scotsman and probably had a great deal more opportunity and experience and familiarity to see far more GB courses and holes and architecture in those early years CBM called his "Dark Age" and also considering Whigam was 32 years old in 1901.

So let's take a look at exactly what Whigam did say four years earlier about emulating GB architecture in America to improve architecture over here.

I do recall, at some point, Whigam advocated for making American course more difficult for the very same reasons Travis did in that British Golf Illustrated magazine article in Nov, 1901.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 01:41:15 PM by TEPaul »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
"What I did say on here is it seems very possible that Travis came up with or became familiar with a good deal more of good GB architecture that could be emulated for its features or architectural principles or for its ideas to improve architecture in America BEFORE Macdonald did" -TEPaul

Meaningless, untrue and illogical. Where else was any thinking man of the time going to look to see what was good in architecture, Florida?

"Why is that? Are you afraid of some potential truth that might change what we have heretofore known or believed about Macdonald and his knowledge of GB architecture at a particular point in time"-TEPaul

I don't have a dog in the hunt other than curiosity. I'm not writing any books about architects, nor do I have the urge to dampen the memory of any one of them. Don't you ever feel a little remorse about your ongoing and feckless attacks against Macdonald? I think I once compared you to Inspector Javert, but after a few more years of the same inane persecution I think you've graduated into the title of 'Pompous Pile-It'.  ;D ;)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 01:38:41 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

"Don't you ever feel a little remorse about your ongoing and feckless attacks against Macdonald?"


Jim Kennedy:

For the life of me I just cannot understand why you keep saying that on here. I am not ATTACKING Macdonald at all. All I'm trying to do is get to the real truth and facts of Charles Blair Macdonald's life and times at any particular time in his life and career.

I truly cannot understand why you have a problem with that the way you seem to which leads to all those screeching red text comments of yours; it's nothing more than an ongoing search for the truth which obviously includes facts. Do you have some problem with the truth or the facts of Macdonald's life and times becoming better known, particularly since many of us are labeling him the father of American golf course architecture? If we are going to do that it seems pretty reasonable to investigate who had some important influences on him, particularly to do with golf course architecture, at any point in time.

I think even you should be able to admit that before someone can advocate the emulation and/or imitation of something somewhere else they should at least have a pretty good familiarity with what they are going to emulate or imitate. It seems to me, at the moment, that other than TOC and Hoylake Macdonald did not have that familiarity before 1902 and later. Can you document that he did have that familiarlity with GB architecture other than TOC and Hoylake before 1902, 1904 and 1906 which are the dates of his three dedicated architectural study trips abroad?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 01:55:59 PM by TEPaul »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
TEPaul,

Do not send me anymore of your insulting personal messages.

If you cannot stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Melvyn Morrow


Tom Paul

Memories can and are special, memories of a time when you first started to experience freedom and understand of life remains with you for your lifetime particularly if in a foreign land.

Charles Blair MacDonald was back I believe in his father’s native country, he was introduced into the elite circle of golfers from the R&A to Old & Young Tom, David Strath, Charlie & James Hunter. He was in St Andrews at the time of great things happening in Golf. His friends were the Open Champions, he was at the centre of the golfing world, at the course that set the standards and fundamentals we today take for granted. He lived and was part of that period at St Andrews, so I firmly believe he remembered his days and the experience of St Andrews including Old Tom. From that, he was able to perhaps understand and actually noticed and remembered  details which I presume set his standards and goals in his golfing life recalled later around the turn of the century.  Being part of the St Andrews set, I expect he would have travelled to some of the other courses while he was at St Andrews in 1872-4.

Lets not forget that being known to Old Tom, he would have been told all about design and Green Keeping and would have had TOC explained to him., So I for one see no problem in an older man remembering the happy days of his youth bearing in mind the company he kept. MacDonald was a very lucky and fortunate young man, yet he was not alone, think of all the many Scotsmen that travelled to the USA in the 1890’s who had experience of Old Tom and his design ways. The Foulis Brothers, D Ross, Willie Campbell are just a few names that spring to mind. So MacDonald may not have known them but he knew the message they brought from over the sea. Dismiss his memories at your peril. If it was a special period in his life, he would have remembered. In addition, the fact that Scottish golfers were making the trip to America to play, teach and design courses around that time would that not awaken some of his early memories of golf in Scotland. After all, where else would he have obtained his experience?  Regrettable the written word or records don’t always reflect the true story or what was really the reason behind the idea in the first place.

Who really knows, perhaps only the dead.
 
Melvyn

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Biarritz question was posed because I thought it would be worth establishing the template concepts used at NGLA and when he might have seen them. Even though Brancaster, North Berwick, Prestwick, etc aren't mentioned in his book, we know he went to these places.

David, He did mention going to NB, but I agree that we obviously cannot rely on his book to figure out everything he saw, because he does not give us a full account of his golf and travels in Europe.    Somewhere CBM wrote about playing in France with HJW while studying golf holes for NGLA.  So he most likely would have seen the famous hole at Biarritz then.  But there are also a few holes at N.B. that could have influenced the design.   I think there are two different concepts related to the Biarritz, both found in CBM holes but not always what we would think of as the Biarritz.

Now, as far MacKenzie and Macdonald comparisons, while both claim to have thought St Andrews to be the very best, I don't think AM went out of his way to try and duplicate anything from the UK, while CBM would look for the best areas of the property to implement a template, and if substantial earth had to be moved, he would.

David, I think you may be confusing Macdonald with Raynor, or at least confusing what CBM accomplished at NGLA with later work where Raynor was more heavily involved.   So far as I know, CBM did not move substantial dirt to implement any templates at NGLA.   Depending on how one counts, there were only between two and four holes at NGLA that even approximated holes from abroad.  Of these, they all contained substantive differences (improvements in CBM's eyes) from the originals, and more importantly, they ALL FIT THE LAND.  As for the rest (and even for the supposed copies) CBM applied an amalgamation of different strategic concepts as they fit the land.  It is true that when it came to building the Lido, CBM did try to be "a Creator," trying to build a landscape of nothing, but even he ultimately admitted that he could not match nature in this regard.

You've got to remember the timing and the oft stated goal of NGLA.    He wanted to change the focus back onto the fundamental principles found in  links golf, and so it made sense for him to explicitly identify the strategies of his holes with holes abroad.   His holes were examples intended to teach us what a good golf hole was, and examples intended to teach us where to look for good golf design.   At the time it may not have been enough to merely build the course.  Linking the principles to holes that were already considered to be the best in the world gave the holes at NGLA legitimacy as exemplars that could be studied and followed, whether the names of the holes were used or not.  

And in a very real sense all of the same concepts from NGLA are present throughout AM's work (at least the work I have seen;) not that AM was explicitly copying golf holes from CBM or the holes abroad.  Rather he was just applying basic strategic concepts as they fit the land, and that is exactly what CBM was advocating.  Both were incredibly advanced at using the existing landscape to bring out fairly fundamental yet sophisticated strategic problems in the golf course.  Note that AM was an admirer of CBM's work at NGLA and thought it better than Pine Valley, and that CBM obviously liked AM's winning hole since he used it at the Lido (and since it was similar to a hole CBM had always wanted to build, but hadn't got the chance because he had never had the right land for it.)  Obviously, AM had a very different aesthetic style and he was very creative and original, and he mastered the use of slopes as a strategic concepts, but using slope strategically was one of CBM's great strengths as well.   Both at their bones represented strategic golf course design at its best.   CBM just put names old to his holes, while AM did not.  But the same bones are there.

As CBM wrote in SG:
The National has fulfilled its mission, having caused the reconstruction of al the best known golf courses existing in the first decade of this cnetury in the United States, and, further, has caused the study of golf architecture resulting in the building of numerous meritorious courses of great interest throughout the country.

If one takes a look at the discussion while Augusta National was under way, it was often presented as if it would be an "ideal" course made up of copies of great holes from St, Andrews and elsewhere.   AM ultimately clarified that while the holes were largely inspired by the strategic principles found in holes abroad, it did not contain actual copies.   This was a perfect realization of what CBM was advocating and hoping for when it came to American golf.   In fact in CBM's obituary, H.J. Whigham praised AM's Cypress Point, not as a CBM course, but as the type of course made possible by NGLA, and the type of course CBM wanted in America.

[One thing I find fascinating about the construction photos of CP is H.J. Whigham's presence in the construction photographs.  Not saying or even implying that he or CBM were at all involved in the design, but the course was certainly meant to be in the same school of design as what CBM advocated, thus the later praise by HJW.   Also, Raynor as the first as the first choice of designer hints at the same thing (although I wonder if whenever Raynor got a job if he really wasnt the second choice.)  
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 04:36:13 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

David Moriarty,

I think most of the dirt moving occured at the green ends.

This becomes apparent when you examine each green from the sides and rear.

TEPaul

Melvyn:

There seems to be no question at all that C.B. Macdonald was incredibly familiar with TOC during his years at the University of St Andrews (1872-75) and why wouldn't he have been as he obviously played it so much? He writes about those years and all the important people and great players he got to know and played with while at TOC including Old and Young Tom. He even mentioned in 1927 that he had always felt that Young Tom was the greatest player he had ever known (who he mentioned in his book died as he was just returning to Chicago in 1875) until Bobby Jones won the Open in 1927 which he says he became aware of as he was in the midst of writing his book.

Macdonald was also clearly very familiar with Royal Liverpool GC at Hoylake having played it many many times over the years. He was a member of that club as he was of the R&A at St. Andrews.

Macdonald writes in his autobiography in real detail when and where he played while abroad between the years of 1875 and 1892 (which he referred to as his "Dark Age" because he was able to play so little golf between those years) and I believe I have listed above all the courses he listed he played during those years. It appears he played a great deal at Hoylake but he actually never mentioned going back to TOC during those years he said he was in England quite frequently on business.

Have you read his autobiography, "Scotland's Gift Golf," Melvyn?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 05:19:16 PM by TEPaul »

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