next »

[TEPaul]

"Unlike you, I don't go into every discussion with some pre-ordained legend to protect or predefined point to make.   I follow the facts where they lead me, and the facts have lead me to change my views on CBM significantly over the past six years.   As I said above, I still believe much of what I wrote in that old thread, but would put it differently today.   I welcome disagreement from Jim or anyone else, so long as they disagree without being a complete jerk.

And Tom, there is nothing hypocritical going on on my side   You and Wayne obviously think that CBM was arrogant, but that has never been the problem.  Rather, my problem with you guys is that you trash him with rumor, gossip, innuendo, and caricature, but you never bother to try to make your case with actual fact and analysis.   Six years ago I set out the basis  for my claim for all to see and challenge.  In contrast you and Wayne stick to petty, small minded gossip, trying to trash the CBM's eputation indirectly, without ever bothering to back any of it up.

Make your case or let it go."


Moriarty:

If you changed your mind about CBM or his arrogance in approaching or applying golf course architecture, that is just fine with me---that's very cool with me, actually. I think as we live and learn we sure can and do change our perspectives and opinions about golf architecture and its architects, including CBM.

I've always thought he was arrogant with his approach, application, and the way he dealt with the world he lived in and that has always been fascinating to me---totally fascinating.

My problem with you is you said he was arrogant back in 2003 and in the interim you have been accusing Wayne and me of saying that first on here about Charles Blair Macdonald, but we never did. You've been saying we have but the fact is WE NEVER DID! I just proved that with that 2003 thread ("Re; Did Macdonald "Jump the Shark' with the Lido") you started YOU were the one who said that first, claimed that first and maintained it first and the fact you find it impossible to admit it to now and even deny on this thread is just about the height of hypocricy on your part, in my opinion!

If you think Wayne or me said Macdonald was some kind of arrogant ogre before you did with that thread or yours back in 2003  just show us all where we said that before you did. I've asked you to show us all that and the fact is you just completely avoid it? Why is that? In my book, it's totally obvious and shows you to be the hypocritical twit you are and always have been on this website!! You're the dude who asks for facts, right?? Well then, you weasel, show us the facts where we said that before you did on your 2003 thread (Re: Did Macdonald 'Jump the Shark" with The Lido?").

My bet is you can't do that or won't do that which shows totally loud and clear the complete hypocite you are and always have been on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com.

Let's see you prove me wrong about that, Moriarty. My bet is you can't and all we will see is more of your tranparent attempts at argumentative deception!

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
Whatever you say.

[DMoriarty]

My problem with you is you said he was arrogant back in 2003 and in the interim you have been accusing Wayne and me of saying that first on here about Charles Blair Macdonald, but we never did. You've been saying we have but the fact is WE NEVER DID! I just proved that with that 2003 thread ("Re; Did Macdonald "Jump the Shark' with the Lido") you started YOU were the one who said that first, claimed that first and maintained it first and the fact you find it impossible to admit it to now and even deny on this thread is just about the height of hypocricy on your part, in my opinion!

If you think Wayne or me said Macdonald was some kind of arrogant ogre before you did with that thread or yours back in 2003  just show us all where we said that before you did. I've asked you to show us all that and the fact is you just completely avoid it? Why is that? In my book, it's totally obvious and shows you to be the hypocritical twit you are and always have been on this website!! You're the dude who asks for facts, right?? Well then, you weasel, show us the facts where we said that before you did on your 2003 thread (Re: Did Macdonald 'Jump the Shark" with The Lido?").

My bet is you can't do that or won't do that which shows totally loud and clear the complete hypocite you are and always have been on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com.

Let's see you prove me wrong about that, Moriarty. My bet is you can't and all we will see is more of your tranparent attempts at argumentative deception!

Is this a joke?   

Are you seriously contending that you and Wayne have never said that CBM was arrogant, that he was an egomaniac, that his personality interfered with his designs?  Do you really believe that you guys haven't incessantly mocked him and portrayed him as a temperamental self-worshiping asshole who listened to no one and only gave a damn about himself?  Do you really think I cannot come up with examples of you guys portraying him as an egomaniac? You were cc'd on Wayne's recent email to me, weren't you?

Probably not a joke, so it must be your latest bizarre game.  Obviously you've set it up so the result is dependent upon a bizarre and irrational condition:  Who used the word "arrogant" first?   Sorry, but I won't play.  I never wrote that you guys portrayed him as an arrogant ogre first.  I wrote your presentation of him as an arrogant ogre is old and tired, and has been overplayed and unsupported for years.  I stand by that.

And for the record, I have never portrayed CBM the way you guys portray him.  Lumping me in with you guys is absurd.

[TEPaul]

"Are you seriously contending that you and Wayne have never said that CBM was arrogant, that he was an egomaniac, that his personality interfered with his designs?"


Moriarty:

No, I've never contended on here that I've never said CBM was arrogant or some type of egomaniac. I think anyone who's studied the man admits that and so do I. I have said many times on here though that that really does fascinate me. I've also said many times that I think that aspect is a very good one for a good discussion on here. I would hope you would participate in it but you seem to only want to deflect the whole thing with posts similar to the ones you've made in the last few days. As to what you said about his personality interfering with his designs I have no idea what you mean by that unless it is some implication to some other personal problems he had that were referred to in some old letters from others who knew him.

What bothers me about you is you're now contending that Wayne and I were the ones who first claimed on here CBM was an arrogant man but I have shown it was you who did that on that six year old thread of yours "Re: Did Macdonald 'Jump the Shark' with The Lido?" Part of the point you were making on that thread of yours was that he was an arrogant man to have taken on a project like The Lido so as to practically play God or the Creator with a particular site and you even said you felt he was arrogant to have done NGLA. You tried to make the point that his arrogance with that project (The Lido) may've even destroyed the Golden Age of architecture and ushered in the beginning of some modern age of architecture where the land itself was not particularly respected or used to lead the roll of golf course architecture. Frankly, and in my opinion, that point really is a pretty interesting one to make and consider whether it was actually true or not.

I just think you need to admit that and stopped trying to blame Wayne and I for first claiming that on here. If you can't or don't admit it I think that shows some real hypocrisy on your part and obviously I don't think that's appropriate and certainly not at the expense of Wayne Morrison and I.

So, no, what I'm trying to say to you is not a joke at all; it is very serious, and I'm serious about it! You should be too.

[TEPaul]

"You were cc'd on Wayne's recent email to me, weren't you?"


Yes I was and I thought it was a most thoughtful and helpful message to you about this very subject. I think it's too bad you ignored it and failed to respond to him. I think a copy went to Tom MacWood too and he failed to respond as well. That's too bad, as a resolution was certainly in the offing with that message of Wayne's.

[TEPaul]

David Moriarty:

Let me just say this, and if you really consider it carefully, I think it can serve to get us off the dime of this constant adverserialness on here, at least about C.B. Macdonald and what his career was all about not just in and of itself but how it may've affected other architects and their approach at the time and afterwards----at the very least in an architecturally "symbolic" sense----ie Man as the ultimate Creator of GCA or Land (Nature itself) as the ultimate Creator or canvas.

I just reread the first page and a half of that six year old thread of yours "Re: Did Macdonald 'Jump the Shark' with The Lido?" and I can very clearly see how your primary point was pretty much misundertood as most of the rest of us (not all to some extent but most of us) sort of compartmentalized the thread into other points or subjects or Sub-subjects that didn't have much to do with your point. Some seemed to understand your point or premise but just rejected it out-of-hand fairly quickly.

Your first post really wasn't bad at all or misleading at all (with my recent rereading) as you claimed it may've been on your post #33. That post (#33) was very clear as to what you were trying to say.

I think this (that thread) is a large and fascinating and very important subject and I think it should be reprised (or restarted on another thread) and thoroughly discussed on here.

The irony may be that even though I apparently missed your point in that thread six years ago I don't think I am missing its point now, and I also believe I pretty much completely agree with the point you really were trying to make on that thread.

Frankly, I don't think it even matters if no golf course like a Lido was done again for the next half century; it occurs to me that the fact The Lido happened the way it did very well may've turned much of the Golden Age and some of its most signficant architects down a road that was essentially the opposite of Lido and that may even explain some of Macdonald's later discontent with the things he saw around him into the 1920s and beyond! 

[DMoriarty]

1.  I never claimed you guys were the first to call him arrogant.  Rather, I wrote that your guys have never bothered to back up or support your long continuing gossip and innuendo about his supposed character flaws.  See Wayne's "Macdonald's Gift: Golf" post in the Lido thread, for example. 

2.  My take on Wayne's recent email (and the insults and cheap shots it contained, especially at the end) is a bit different than yours.  Nonetheless, while it is none of your business, I did respond to him and invited continued dialogue so long as it was civil.   He declined the invitation.

3.  Last night you were ranting against me, insulting me, trashing my efforts on the old thread, harassing me via private email despite my requests that you leave me alone, and demanding that I be kicked off the website, and threatening to leave if I was not kicked off.  This morning you want to rehash this six year old discussion as if things are peachy keen?   No thanks.

[V. Kmetz]

I think the last post for this thread should come not from me, or from any other actors, but from JC Urbina who posted the original inquiring thread; something like...

"Well JC, you've seen it from all corners and watched it played in many winds...what do you now think about the question you posed?"

[john_stiles]

 
Based on what was in CBM's rear view mirror, the date he started his GCA, and his accomplishments, I am agreeing with HW Wind.

[Mac Plumart]

Vinnie...

I wanted to thank you for your post #38.

Right about the time this thread started my Scotlands Gift arrived in the mail.  I'd previously read your post and thought it was good, as are all your posts.  But as I began reading the book and especially that chapter on his time in St. Andrews and then his returning home to nothing but garbage golf courses...your post really hit home with me.

I can't imagine being so deeply in love with golf, being in the home of golf, playing with others who love the game as much as you, and then going somewhere where there is no golf to speak of.  I would be crushed, depressed, and in agony.  As I imagine CB MacDonald was...and your post really hit home on that one.

Terriffic work.  And I mean this sincerely, I think reading your post while at the same time reading Scotlands Gift opened up my eyes to how fortunate I am to be in such a golfing mecca and  have all these opportunities to play this great game at almost anytime I want.

It is truly a blessing.

Thanks!!!

As an FYI to all GCA'ers...there is a 99% chance that I will have an unfilled spot in a foursome at East Lake the 3rd of December.  Pop me an private message if anyone has interest.  The spot has now been filled...FYI.

Anyway...that is all.

[TEPaul]

JohnS:

Interesting what you just said there. I was rereading Herbert Warren Wind's Forward in the Classic Books reprint of C.B. Macdonald's 1928 autobiography, "Scotland's Gift Golf" and I believe he definitely summed up in seven pages CBM's life and times a whole lot better than anyone on this website ever has, but then again, none of us are a Herbert Warren Wind.