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Mike_Cirba
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« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2009, 11:31:32 AM » |
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Kyle Harris and I were talking about Paxon Hollow the other day and I told him that I would share the original routing with him.
This was sent to me a few years back from a fellow by the name of Kurt Kimmerling..
"#1 was as it is now. #2 was a short par four that ran down over the hill behind the current hole's green. #3 was at the bottom of the hill, a par three that ended near the existing #3 tee. #4 is now number #3. #5 was as it is now. (That's right, the current #4 didn't exist on original course.) #6 was as it is now. #7 was as it is now. #8 green is original but the tee was back then, further to the right near the current #4 green. #9 was as it is now."
"You need to use our imagination now for the back nine. The original #10 teed off near the existing practice green. (You can still see the old tee. It's used as part of today's "shag range".) It was a par five that ended about where the existing #17 green is today. #11 was actually the existing #16 played the other direction! THe tee was at today's green and the green at today's tee. #12 was the exsting #11. #13 was the existing #12. #14 Teed where the existing #13 tees today It plays the same fairway, but the hold green was back in what is now the field behind the existing #13 green. (You can still see the old green back there if you use your imagination). #15 was a par three coming back towards today's #16 green. #16 was the existing #16 #17 was what is now #15. #18 played down the hill from today's #15 green and then played to the existing #18 green."
"The course routing was changed to remove the hill which had to be climbe between the then #10 green and the then #11 tee."
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D_Malley
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« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2009, 01:02:55 PM » |
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mike you are close but how can you play hole #16 twice. once bacwards and then again forward. #10 played as you described with the green somewhere in the front of current 18 fairway. Then #11 played as a par three to the current #17 green. then you walked up the hill and played the old #12 which was basicall current #16 in reverse. then down to the current #11 which was the old #13.
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Mike_Cirba
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« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2009, 01:07:06 PM » |
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D_Malley.
Thanks...I saw that when I waas typing and hoped someone would chime in!
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Kyle Harris
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« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2009, 09:55:02 PM » |
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Pity that 13 isn't original to the Meehan design - it could be one of the best green sites I've played.
Who made the changes? There is plenty of commendable work there!
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...And I ask myself what I now ask you: 'Why should I teach him the language of painting, since there seems to be absolutely nothing which he is desperate to talk about?'" kwh132@gmail.comAIM: Stonewall435 |
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Steve_ Shaffer
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« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2009, 05:14:22 PM » |
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"Golf is a hard game to figure. One day you'll go out and slice it and shank it,hit into all the traps and miss every green. The next day you'll go out and, for no reason at all, you really stink."
Bob Hope
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Steve_ Shaffer
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« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2009, 01:30:21 PM » |
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I recently played Paxon Hollow on a beautiful fall day last week. I was favorably impressed with the recent bunker work of Gil Hanse and Company. The course is fun to play and seems longer than the stated yardage because of the hilly terrain. IMO PH is just as hilly as Huntingdon Valley and perhaps even more so.Here are some pics: From the 10th tee-short par4- 288y  Bunker 13  Approach 12  |
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« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 01:54:44 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
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"Golf is a hard game to figure. One day you'll go out and slice it and shank it,hit into all the traps and miss every green. The next day you'll go out and, for no reason at all, you really stink."
Bob Hope
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Joe Bausch
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« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2009, 02:00:09 PM » |
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Yowser, Steve, either my monitors are broken or your camera is not functioning well! Just a tad heavy on the green color me thinks.
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D_Malley
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« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2009, 03:02:20 PM » |
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steve,
what day were you here?
sorry i did not see you
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Matt OBrien
Jr. Member
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Posts: 229
They dont ask how you got there, just how many
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« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2009, 03:17:14 PM » |
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Yowser, Steve, either my monitors are broken or your camera is not functioning well! Just a tad heavy on the green color me thinks.
If your monitor is broken then mine is as well!!! |
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mike_malone
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« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2009, 03:17:48 PM » |
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I would love to see those evergreens go on#10. This brings the creek into play. I'm familiar with the safety issues on #18, but "visibility" is the best safety. Besides I want to move the fairway way to the left on 18 anyway to bring more of the slope into play.
There are so many available areas for play that aren't being used on that course. Most courses would cry ( I was going to say"kill" but I'm afraid to use that word on this site) for such options.
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« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 03:41:27 PM by mike_malone »
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AKA Mayday
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Steve_ Shaffer
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« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2009, 03:36:37 PM » |
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Adjust your monitors fellows. That's a Leica lens.  |
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"Golf is a hard game to figure. One day you'll go out and slice it and shank it,hit into all the traps and miss every green. The next day you'll go out and, for no reason at all, you really stink."
Bob Hope
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D_Malley
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« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2009, 08:34:19 PM » |
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I would love to see those evergreens go on#10. This brings the creek into play. I'm familiar with the safety issues on #18, but "visibility" is the best safety. Besides I want to move the fairway way to the left on 18 anyway to bring more of the slope into play.
There are so many available areas for play that aren't being used on that course. Most courses would cry ( I was going to say"kill" but I'm afraid to use that word on this site) for such options.
Mike,
there are 5 evergreens down the right side of #10 which are all on the 18th hole side of the creek as you play the 10th hole. i would like to see them all go except for that big one seen clearly in pic above which is closest to the tee. That tree is very effective in forcing you to shape your tee shot (r to L) on #10 if you attempt to drive the green. but the other four behind it are very close to the creek and are more in play on 18. if you take them out you could cut the 18th fairway much closer to the waters edge.
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« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 06:18:40 AM by D_Malley »
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Sean Arble
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« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2009, 01:01:46 AM » |
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Wow, this site looks VERY severe for golf. It looks loike on some of those holes a shot 20 yards off line could end up in the next state.
Ciao
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THE NEXT DOZEN: Brancaster, Silloth, Ganton, Berkshire Red, Pulborough, Sunningdale Old, Deal, Crystal Downs, Kingsley Club, Franklin Hills, Pasatiempo & Cypress Point
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mike_malone
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« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2009, 10:29:21 AM » |
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Sean,
This course is a few miles from Rolling Green, so it shares our topography.
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AKA Mayday
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D_Malley
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« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2009, 10:33:12 AM » |
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Sean,
It is a site with several hills and valleys. just about every green has fall offs in the back and at least one side, approaches and recoveries can be very challenging, but are usually played with short irons. there are alot times where you must make club selection choices on the tee shots. the current total yardage is about 5700.
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mike_malone
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« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2009, 10:34:58 AM » |
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Dan,
I would suggest that a natural hazard like a stream should be used as much as possible, particularly for visual intimidation. By eliminating the tree by the tee you encourage people to bring the creek into play in an effort to drive the green. I'm for moving the line of play on #18 to the left to bring that ridge at about 100 yards more into play. In fact , I would create a huge bunker in the side of that hill. This creates the possibility of a blind third shot. How fun would that be? I also would encourage more fairway on the left of the creek for the tee shot on #18. This allows one to get across the creek early and likely shortens the hole but requires driving across the creek.
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« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 10:57:23 AM by mike_malone »
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AKA Mayday
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D_Malley
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« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2009, 03:14:13 PM » |
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mike,
re: the large pine closest to the tee on hole #10
i do understand what you are saying, and i really hate to see a tree that dictates the play of a hole.
but I think this one enhanses the risk/reward of the #10 tee shot.
at least for my game, that drive becomes much easier without that tree.
i will have much more room to miss my driver without worry.
where as now if i hit driver and it does not cut, it is a lost ball in the area above the new cart path.
and by the way:
are you saying that a stream is a "natural hazard" and a tree is not?
or that a stream is a better "natural hazard" than a tree or group of trees?
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mike_malone
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« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2009, 03:29:18 PM » |
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Let's put it this way. You wouldn't be able to put that stream in today and it has natural beauty and strategic possibilities for a golf course. Evergreens can be planted anytime and have little reason to be on a course like PH.
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AKA Mayday
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D_Malley
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« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2009, 03:37:43 PM » |
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the real hazard i see when attempting to hit a cut driver onto #10 green is not the pine tree.
although the pine tree does dictate the shape of the shot because of how close it is to the tee.
It is if the drive does not cut it will end up in the woods above the new cart path.
without the pine tree i do not have to worry about that.
that is a much worse fate than hitting it in the creek.
hence more of a risk/reward quotant
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« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 03:43:33 PM by D_Malley »
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mike_malone
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« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2009, 03:42:35 PM » |
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Dan,
I understand how it affects your game, but courses should relate to a wide range of players not just pros.
My main point is that the land at PH is so interesting that there are many options available to challenge players and increase the fun and variety. Most courses are far behind PH in the interest of the land.
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AKA Mayday
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D_Malley
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« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2009, 03:53:37 PM » |
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Mike
I totally agree with your post above
and i was only talking about the way i play that hole.
i do feel that #10 at PH is a very good sub 300 yrd. par 4
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mike_malone
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« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2009, 09:11:31 AM » |
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When you have a great piece of ground for golf just think of a variety of ways to use it. Never reduce the playing area when you have this kind of land. That is my view which I learned from studying William Flynn's writings and work.
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AKA Mayday
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D_Malley
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« Reply #57 on: November 19, 2009, 12:00:59 PM » |
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Mike here are some additional pics of #10     The first two pics are the view from the lower men's tee, where you can only see the scruffy pine which sits right behind the large Pine we were referring to earlier. as you can see the large pine does not effect the tee shot from the lower tee. i do like your idea to create more playing area near the creek but i would add that the trees (not pines) up by the green near the creek should also be taken out. and the fairway should be enlarged to encompase the area in pics 2 and 3. I would also like to see native grass area to the left of cart path after you cross the bridge. this would all be a plus whether or not you take the large pine out, that effects the tee shot from the back tees |
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« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 12:06:56 PM by D_Malley »
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Sean Arble
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« Reply #58 on: November 19, 2009, 05:18:25 PM » |
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I keep looking at these pix as they are compelling. Is there some catch? Why didn't I know about this course before I went to Philly? Does the course ever get keen?
BTW - Mayday is right. The trees should be hacked down without mercy.
Ciao
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THE NEXT DOZEN: Brancaster, Silloth, Ganton, Berkshire Red, Pulborough, Sunningdale Old, Deal, Crystal Downs, Kingsley Club, Franklin Hills, Pasatiempo & Cypress Point
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mike_malone
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« Reply #59 on: November 19, 2009, 05:29:27 PM » |
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Sean,
The land in Delaware County is fabulous for golf if you like the challenge of elevation change. We told you about Cobbs Creek (legally in Philly, but just across the street.), you probably have seen things on here about a newer course, Glen Mills. But, PH is a wonderful golf course. Close by RG is Springfield CC. This is another municipal course that gets NO mention. But, it also sits on the same topo as PH and RG. It has some very fun golf holes as well.
I think our area can hold its own against almost anywhere because the change in elevation is neither too abrupt nor too gradual. It creates several options for good architects to make use of.
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AKA Mayday
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D_Malley
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« Reply #60 on: November 19, 2009, 08:39:48 PM » |
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"Why didn't I know about this course before I went to Philly?"
because it is a public course & it is 5700 yds
I think all the trees should go also, except for one
I do know several other people who would love to see that tree go also.
and they all have one thing in common........... a draw
sean
i think you would of loved PH if you had the chance to play it
i will post some more good pics 2morrow
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