[JC Jones]

Are we giving Pine Valley to Colt?

[Jay Flemma]

Are we giving Pine Valley to Colt?

It's not a redesign or a collaboration...it's a restoration.  Old White is a Raynor...not a Lester george design.  Then people could take cherry hill or ACCC as a doak...ridiculous.

And I thought Pine valley should be Crump...not colt, but that has a much better argument going  for it than yours does.

Commish...make a ruling please!  No restorations?

[Kalen Braley]

Are we giving Pine Valley to Colt?

It's not a redesign or a collaboration...it's a restoration.  Old White is a Raynor...not a Lester george design.  Then people could take cherry hill or ACCC as a doak...ridiculous.

And I thought Pine valley should be Crump...not colt, but that has a much better argument going  for it than yours does.

Commish...make a ruling please!  No restorations?

Jay,

Its no more utterly ridiculous than calling Shinnecock a CBM...there is virtually nothing left of what he did, its all Flynn. 

[Jay Flemma]

I agree with that too...

[Eric Smith]

Are we giving Pine Valley to Colt?

It's not a redesign or a collaboration...it's a restoration.  Old White is a Raynor...not a Lester george design.  Then people could take cherry hill or ACCC as a doak...ridiculous.

And I thought Pine valley should be Crump...not colt, but that has a much better argument going  for it than yours does.

Commish...make a ruling please!  No restorations?

Jay, this is how Golfweek sees it (from 2007 Best Classic list)...

They listed Doak as having 1 course on the Classic list:

99. (90) Atlantic City Country Club (d)
Northfield, N.J.
William S. Flynn, 1923; Tom Doak, 2003

With the criteria Jim posted at the onset, anyone could pick ACCC as a Doak.

[JC Jones]

what about lahinch where there is only a par 3 left from Old Tom Morris but calling it an OTM?

[Jay Flemma]

Eric, Doak redesigned 2 holes...9-10.  Lester didnt redesign any...

are we going to call essex cty and knoll club bahtos?

[Jaeger Kovich]

Oh would you people stop complaining about Shinny!!! It was a genius pick and you know it!

Jay - I like your sleeper... I was considering Silva as well, but thought I could use a few from down under... plus I dont like to bother with tee times and slow play so... when my picks come up all will be explained!

[Kalen Braley]

Oh would you people stop complaining about Shinny!!! It was a genius pick and you know it!

Jay - I like your sleeper... I was considering Silva as well, but thought I could use a few from down under... plus I dont like to bother with tee times and slow play so... when my picks come up all will be explained!

A genius pick?  Ha ha, thats one name for it.

I would say its a dishonest pick at best and you only did it cause the rules left you a massive loophole.....it still belongs to me anyways!       I'm going to trade it away just for that...

[JC Jones]

Btw, Greenbriar was originally designed by CBM.  Later "renovated" by Lester George....

[Bill Brightly]

I can't wait for this draft to be officially over so I can fully critique and point out some glaring omissions

But I'll wait for someone to organize the results so I don't have to do too much work

[JC Jones]

Also, if I cant have Greenbriar then I will select:

Mackenzie:

Alwoodley, Ganton, Scarlet Course

[Jim Colton]

If the guy is listed on one of those sources, it's a legit pick.  If somebody made a pick that doesn't check out, it can be challenged and the guy will lose that course and won't be able to replace it.  I'm not going to double check all the picks for validity, but if anybody wants to screw over a fellow compadre in a meaningless exercise, then more power to you.

[Mac Plumart]

Y'all better not mess with my courses built by Tibetan monks and yaks.  If I can't lay claim to those wonderful courses and places of spiritual enlightenment, I will be incredibily dissapointed!!! 

[Jay Flemma]

Also, if I cant have Greenbriar then I will select:

Mackenzie:

Alwoodley, Ganton, Scarlet Course

done...that's cool.

great pix too.

so what are Jaeger and Jud's last pix?

[Jim Colton]

Round 1:
1. Jud Tigerman: MacKenzie - Crystal Downs, Cypress Point, Palmetto
2. Jaeger Kovich: CBM - The National, Shinnecock, Chicago Golf
3. Jay Flemma: Strantz - MPCC Shore, Bulls Bay, Tobacco Road
4. JC Jones: Ross - Pinehurst #2, Seminole, Wannamoisett
5. Mac Plumart: Dye - Kiawah Ocean, Pete Dye Golf Club of WV, and The Golf Club
6. Alex Miller: Tillinghast - San Francisco Golf Club, Bethpage Black, Winged Foot (West)
7. Ron Montesano: Perry Maxwell - Old Town Club, Southern Hills and Prairie Dunes
8. Eric Smith: Old Tom - Royal County Down, Muirfield, Royal Dornoch
9. Tim Bert: Doak - Pacific Dunes, Ballyneal, Old Mac
10. Kalen Braley: William Flynn - Philly Country Club, The Country Club (Shinny already picked so no soup for you!)
11. Patrick Hodgdon - Coore & Crenshaw - Sand Hills, Bandon Trails, [Friar's Head traded to Ben S. for Pasatiempo #18]
12. Jim Colton: HS Colt - Pine Valley, Royal Portrush, Sunningdale (Old)
13. Dell Sims: Raynor - Camargo, Shoreacres, Yeaman's Hall
14. JNC_Lyon: Ross - Oak Hill East/West, Teugega
15. Rob Rigg: Thompson - Highlands Links, St George's, Banff Springs

Round 2:
16. Rob Rigg: Thomas - Riviera, LACC - North, Bel Air
17. JNC Lyon: Emmet - Leatherstocking, Garden City, Seawane
18. Dell Sims: MacKenzie -  Augusta, Royal Melbourne, [Pasatiempo traded to Patrick H. for Friar's Head #11]
19. Jim Colton Doak - Barnbougle, Rock Creek, Sebonack
20. Patrick Hodgdon: Hugh Wilson - Merion East & West, Cobb's Creek
21. Kalen Braley: Mike Young - Longshadow, Wolf Creek (GA), Southern Hills (GA)
22. Tim Bert: Mike DeVries - Kingsley, Greywalls, Mines
23. Eric Smith: Tom Simpson - Ballybunion (Old), Cruden Bay, Morfontaine
24. Ron M: Walter Travis - Yahnundasis, Ekwanok, Lookout Point
25. Alex Miller: Raynor - Fishers Island, [Yale, Mid-Ocean to Jones]
                     Tillie - Quaker Ridge, Philly Cricket (Wissa.) in 3way from Flemma (33) for Oakmont (57) from Jones
26. Mac Plumart: Fazio - Shadow Creek, Gozzer Ranch, The Green Monkey
27. JC Jones: God--The Old Course
28. Jay Flemma:  ross - oakland hills, white bear, the balsams (panorama)
29. Jaeger Kovich: Colt - Swinley Forrest, and St George's Hill (Muirfield already picked)
30. Jud Tigerman: Old Tom - prestwick, lahinch, machrihanish

Round 3
31. Jud Tigerman: Coore/Crenshaw - austin golf club, old sandwich, lost farm
32. Jaeger Kovich: - James Braid - Carnoustie, Gleneagles, and Royal Aberdeen
33. Jay Flemma:  Tilly...Sleepy Hollow [Quaker Ridge, Philly Cricket (Wissahickon) to Miller]
                         Fownes...Oakmont (57) in 3way from Jones for Mid-Ocean and Yale from Miller (25)
34. JC Jones: [Rye, Toronto, St Andrews Eden to Miller]
                   Watson - Olympic (Lake), Harding Park, The Belvedere from MIller (66)
35. Mac Plumart: Willie Fernie - Troon, Turnberry (Ailisa), Shiskine.
36. Alex Miller: Jack - Cabo del Sol, Muifield Village, and Harbourtown
37. Ron Montesano: Ross - Charles River, Aronomink, CC Rochester
38. Eric Smith: MacKenzie - Kingston Heath, New South Wales, Royal Adelaide
39. Tim Bert: Ross - Holston Hills, Beverly, Newport
40. Kalen Braley: Engh - Black Rock, Sanctuary, Lakota Canyon
41. Patrick Hodgdon: Doak - Cape Kidnappers, Bay of Dreams, and Lost Dunes
42. Jim Colton: CH Alison - Hirono, Kawana, Naruo
43. Dell Sims: RT Jones:  Valderamma, Peachtree GC, Spyglass Hill
44. JNC_Lyon: Raynor--Mountain Lake (FL), Country Club of Fairfield, Fox Chapel.
45. Rob Rigg: Hanse - Castle Stuart, Rustic Canyon, Boston Golf Club

Round 4:
46. Rob Rigg: Hackett - Carne, Eniscrone, Waterville
47. JNC_Lyon: Ross - Essex County Club (MA), Plainfield, Country Club of Buffalo
48. Dell Sims: Jack Neville - Pebble Beach, Pacific Grove
49. Jim Colton: Pete Dye - Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog), TPC Sawgrass, The Honors Course
50. Patrick Hodgdon: Mackenzie: Valley Club of Montecito, Jockey Club (Cancha Colorada), Titirangi
51. Kalen Braley: Brauer - Giants Ridge, Sand Creek Station, Wilderness at Fortune Bay
52. Tim Bert:  Nuzzo - Wolf Point, Aztec Club, Swanson Golf Center
53. Eric Smith: Colt - Woodhall Spa, Kennemer, De Pan
54:  Ron Montesano:  Leeds - Bass Rocks, Kebo Valley, Myopia Hunt
55. Alex Miller: Kyle P - Cal Club, Kingsbarns, and Dundonald
56. Mac Plumart: Drew Rogers/Arthur Hills - Oitavos Dunes, Olde Stone, and Country Club of Columbus
57. JC Jones: Fownes - [Oakmont to Flemma]
                   Raynor - Yale, Mid-Ocean in 3way from Miller (25) for Q. Ridge, Philly Cr. from Flemma (33)
58. Jay Flemma:  William Flynn - Atlantic City C.C., Cherry Hills, Rolling Green
59. Jaeger Kovich: Tilly - Somerset Hills, Winged Foot East, and Baltimore CC East
60. Jud Tigerman: Langford- Lawsonia, Skokie, Harrison Hills

Round 5
61. Jud Tigerman: Doak - Stonewall (old), Rennaisance Club, Stone Eagle
62. Jaeger Kovich: Coore & Crenshaw - The Plantation Course, Talking Stick (North) and Hidden Creek
63. Jay Flemma: Perry Maxwell - University of Michigan, Oklahoma City Golf and Country Club, Colonial!
64. JC Jones: Willie Park, Jr. - Maidstone, Huntercombe and Olympia Fields
65. Mac Plumart: Muirhead - Stone Harbor, CC Boca Raton 1 & 2
66. Alex Miller: [The Belvedere, Olympic (Lake), Harding Park to Jones]
                     Colt - Rye, Toronto, St. Andrews (Eden) from Jones (34)
67. Ron Montesano: Stiles/Van Kleek - Putterham Meadows, Taconic, Woods Hole
68. Eric Smith: Colt - Royal Portcawl, MIlwaukee GC, Hamilton GC
69. Tim Bert: Cupp - Pumpkin Ridge (Witch Hollow)m Sun River (Crosswater), Vanderbilt Legends North
70. Kalen Braley: Chandler Egan - Eugene Country Club, Indian Canyon, EastMoreland
71. Patrick Hodgdon: David McLay Kidd - Bandon Dunes, The Castle Course at St. Andrews, Machrihanish Dunes.
72. Jim Colton: George Lowe Jr - Royal Birkdale, Royal Lytham, Seascale Golf Club
73. Dell Sims: Old Tom -  Royal North Devon (Westward Ho!), Lundin Links, Crail Golfing Society (Balcomie Links)
74. JNC_Lyon: Herbert Strong - Engineers, Canterbury, Saucon Valley (Old)
75. Rob Rigg: C&C - Dormie Club, We Ko Pa Saguaro, Chechessee

Round 6
76. Rob Rigg: Braid - Brora, Nairn, Deal
77. JNC_Lyon: Banks - Forsgate, Hackensack , and Whippoorwill
78. Dell Sims - David Strath - North Berwick
79. Jim Colton - Ross - Inverness, Scioto, East Lake
80. Patrick Hodgdon: CBM - Piping Rock, St. Louis CC, The Creek Club
81. Kalen Braley: Robert Muir Graves - Lake Merced, Sea Ranch, Quail Lodge
82. Tim Bert: Fazio - Pine Barrens at World Woods, Karsten Creek, Pinehurst #4
83. Eric Smith: Fowler - Walton Heath (Old), Saunton (East), Beau Desert
84: Ron Montesano:  Fazio - Wade Hampton, Martis Camp, Pine Hill
85. Alex Miller: Jones II - Chambers, Westchester, Spanish Bay
86. Mac Plumart:  Some crazy yaks - Phulbari Resort and Spa, The Himalayan Golf Club, Gokarna Golf Resort and Spa
87. JC Jones:  Wilson - Pine Tree, NCR South, Cog Hill #4
88. Jay Flemma:  Banks - The Knoll Club (West), Essex County Country Club, Tamarack
89. Jaeger Kovich:  Flynn: Lancaster Country Club, Huntingdon Valley, The Homestead Cascades
90. Jud Tigerman:  Hawtree- Western Gailes, Hillside, Island

Round 7
91. Jud Tigerman:  Alex Russell - Paraparaumu Beach, Royal Melbourne (East), Yarra Yarra
92.  Jaeger Kovich:  Tillinghast - Ridgewood, Fenway, (Newport selected but ineligible:  already taken)
93.  Jay Flemma: Dye - Bulle Rock, Whistling Straits [straits course], Antigua
94.  JC Jones:  RTJ Sr. - Baltusrol [Lower], Point o' Woods, Congressional
95.  Mac Plumart:  Red Lawrence - Desert Forest, University of New Mexico GC, Boulders CC in Arizona
96. Alex Miller: Bell - Torrey South, Sandpiper, Hawaii Kai
97. Ron Montesano:  Hurzan/Fry - Devil's Pulpit, Devil's Paintbrush, Erin Hills
98. Eric Smith: Doak - Sheep Ranch, St. Andrews Beach-Gunnamatta, Heathland
99. Tim Bert:  Thompson - Capilano, Jasper, Westmount
100. Kalen Braley:  Miller - Thanksgiving Point, Entrada, Metropolitan Links
101. Patrick Hodgdon - Flynn - Kittanset, Lehigh, Indian Creek
102. Jim Colton: Marsh: Prairie Club (Pines), Sutton Bay, The Vines (Lakes)
103. Dell Sims:  Raynor - CC Charleston, Lookout Mountain, Blue Mound
104. JNC_Lyon:  C&C - Cuscowilla, The Warren Course, Sugarloaf Mountain
105. Rob Rigg: Whitman - Cabot Links, Sagebrush, Blackhawk

Round 8
106. Rob Rigg:  Ruddy - The European Club, Rosapenna (Sandy Hills), Ballyliffin (Glashedy)
107. JNC_Lyon: Smyers: Old Memorial, Wolf Run, The Members Club at Four Streams
108. Dell Sims:  Kidd - Nanea, Queenswood, tetherow
109. Jim Colton:  Dye - Crooked Stick, Long Cove, Blackwolf Run (River)
110. Patrick Hodgdon: Ross - Interlachen, Biltmore Forest, Biltmore (Coral Gables)
111. Kalen Braley:  Bates - Circling Raven, Soldier Hollow-Gold, San Juan Oaks
112. Tim Bert:  MPCC Dunes, Pinehurst 7, Reynolds Plantation
113. Eric Smith:  James Braid - St. Enodoc, Panmure, Murcar
114: Ron Montesano:  RTJ Sr. - Anglebrook, Crag Burn, Montauk Downs
115. Alex Miller: Robin Nelson: Wind Valley golf club (private course), Kau Sai Chau, and Mangilao
116. Mac Plumart: Weiskopf/Moorish; Loch Lomond, Forest Highlands (Canyon), Double Eagle
117. JC Jones: MacKenzie - Alwoodley, Ganton, Scarlet Course
118. Jay Flemma: Brian Silva - Black Rock, Black Creek, Red Tail
119. Jaeger Kovich: Greg Norman - Ellerston, The Medalist Club, and THE NATIONAL MOONAH COURSE
110. Jud Tigerman: Colt-Royal Worlington, Formby, Ganton

Let's let Bill Brightly make up a wild-card team of any scraps left over.  8 picks in groups of 3.  Have at it.

[Tom_Doak]

Jay F:  I do call Atlantic City one of my own courses, although sometimes I forget to count it.  There are only a few holes from the original 18 that weren't substantially changed.  It is the only "redesign" I claim as my own; all the rest of our consulting work is restorations, although when we do our project in Japan, that will be another redesign.

However, there are many "claims" for different architects here that I would disagree with.  I wouldn't give Milwaukee CC to Colt -- it was really Alison -- and to my knowledge Mr. Colt never set foot on Woodhall Spa.  JC Jones just posted Ganton as a MacKenzie course, which is also wrong; but then JC is right that calling Lahinch an Old Tom Morris course is also a real stretch.  There are several others, but I've forgotten them all by now, and I don't really want to be your referee anyway.

Maybe you guys should consider instant replay, like the World Series should.

[JC Jones]

JC Jones just posted Ganton as a MacKenzie course, which is also wrong; but then JC is right that calling Lahinch an Old Tom Morris course is also a real stretch. 

I didn't say it was a MacKenzie course, only that he is credited enough to have his name attached to it, which is the criteria we are operating under.

Ganton could have gone to several people including MacKenzie, Simpson, Colt, etc.  Similar to Pine Valley.

[Jay Flemma]

Jay F:  I do call Atlantic City one of my own courses, although sometimes I forget to count it.  There are only a few holes from the original 18 that weren't substantially changed.  It is the only "redesign" I claim as my own; all the rest of our consulting work is restorations, although when we do our project in Japan, that will be another redesign.

However, there are many "claims" for different architects here that I would disagree with.  I wouldn't give Milwaukee CC to Colt -- it was really Alison -- and to my knowledge Mr. Colt never set foot on Woodhall Spa.  JC Jones just posted Ganton as a MacKenzie course, which is also wrong; but then JC is right that calling Lahinch an Old Tom Morris course is also a real stretch.  There are several others, but I've forgotten them all by now, and I don't really want to be your referee anyway.

Maybe you guys should consider instant replay, like the World Series should.

Fair enough.  I know you did 9-10 because we talked about that.  It was a lot of fun to play, that's for sure.  I tried your short cut on 10.

How about Cherry Hills?  How are things coming there?  How much Flynn remains?

[Kalen Braley]

Tom D,

Thanks for showing up.  Can we get a ruling on Shinny?  CBM or Flynn?   

[Jim Colton]

Tom,

Based on the picks, which team would you most want to own?

Jim

[JC Jones]

Coltrain,

Jud's Ganton pick is out b/c I got it a few picks before him.

[JC Jones]

"The Flying WASPs"

Round 1: Pick 4: Ross - Pinehurst #2, Seminole, Wannamoisett
Round 2: Pick 27: God--The Old Course
Round 3: Pick 34:  Watson - Olympic (Lake), Harding Park, The Belvedere
Round 4: Pick 57: Raynor - Yale, Mid-Ocean
Round 5: Pick 64: Willie Park, Jr. - Maidstone, Huntercombe and Olympia Fields
Round 6: Pick 87: Wilson - Pine Tree, NCR South, Cog Hill #4
Round 7: Pick 94: RTJ Sr. - Baltusrol [Lower], Point o' Woods, Congressional

Trades: Colt: Rye, Toronto, St Andrews Eden traded to Miller
             Fownes: Oakmont to Flemma

Round 8: Pick 117: MacKenzie: Alwoodley, Ganton, OSU-Scarlet  (amended pursuant to commish ruling)

[Bill Brightly]

OK, I'll make up a team from the scraps! Here are my first 6, I will finish it up whne I get to my library at the office

Ross: Mountain Ridge, Misquamicut, Seaview Bay Course

Tillinghast: Alpine, Bethpage Red, Baltustrol Upper

Fazio: Galloway, Trump National, Butler National

RTJ Tuxedo, Wilmington, Metedeconk

Eddy Hackett: Ballyliffin Old, Enniscrone , Letterkenny

William Gordon: Saucon Valley Weyhill, Stanwich, Saucon Valley Grace

[Garland Bayley]

Bill,

Rob got Enniscrone. You need a different Hackett.

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