How come we don't talk much about Utah?

[Jay Flemma]

Why don't talk much about Utah here on GCA?  Isn't it also true that Utah is one of only two states that has never hosted a USGA tourney?  (The other is definitely New Hampshire).

What great public courses are there in Utah and why are they great?  I hear good things about Sand Hollow and Bountiful.  Anyone played?

What great private courses are in Utah and why are they great?

[Joel Zuckerman]

The 200th USA Course for Team Nicklaus -- Red Ledges !

Here's a recent Utah thread from about 6-7 weeks ago.

[Jud_T]

because it's too difficult to get a cocktail at the turn!

[Matt_Ward]

Jay:

The issue is a bit complicated but the straightforward reason was that until recent times -- say the last 10-15 years there was little golf of high quality to play. That has changed -- especially within the last 10 years -- and you can see the growth in such areas as St. George, the greater Salt Lake City area and in the mountain areas like Park City.

Unfortunately, many people on this site use the heard mentality - they go to the same predictable places. No prob there -- but Utah is blessed with some of the best natural scenery in the continental USA and now golf is taking advantage of that.

Joel mentioned the Red Ledges thread that was previously posted. We have a slightly different take on that course but I see it as one of Team Nicklaus' best designs. Blends native beauty through a routing that takes advantage of all that it can offer.

On the flip side you have a place like Sand Hollow -- a superb affordable public layout that has one of the best short par-4's you can play in the 13th hole.

Jay, hopefully, more people will open their eyes to what is there.

One other course of note -- off the beaten trrail -- FR's design in Monticello called The Hideout. So aptly named.

[Jay Flemma]

How about something other than Red Ledges?

Anyone played Bountiful?  Or MIllers course Entrada at Snow Canyon?

[cary lichtenstein]

Utah never registered compelling to visit when I checked it out previously. I'll go there this summer if you can get together a good list of courses worth playing.

Anyone know how long the drive is from Aspen to where the good courses are?

[Joe Hancock]

I'm just curious about this thing called "heard mentality". Anyone who nose about it, I'm all ears.

Joe

[Rich Goodale]

Joe

I'm going to give Matt the benefit of the doubt and award him 3*** for the tyop, "heard mentality."

Rich

[Jud_T]

for what it's worth....

Best Courses You Can Play-Utah (Golfweek 2009):

1. Sand Hollow GC (Championship), St. George (m)*
2. Thanksgiving Point, Lehi (m)
3. Coral Canyon, St. George (m)
4. Soldier Hollow (Gold), Midway (m)
5. Hideout, Montecello (m)

[Joel Zuckerman]

for what it's worth....

Best Courses You Can Play-Utah (Golfweek 2009):

1. Sand Hollow GC (Championship), St. George (m)*
2. Thanksgiving Point, Lehi (m)
3. Coral Canyon, St. George (m)
4. Soldier Hollow (Gold), Midway (m)
5. Hideout, Montecello (m)

Best Courses You Should Play (Zuckerman 2009)

Glenwild
Victory Ranch
Jeremy Ranch
Dye Course at Promontory
Red Ledges

All in/around Park City--about 40 minutes from SLC

[Kalen Braley]

Jay,

As one who lives in the SLC Valley, I've been talking about Utah golf for several years now.  Here are the reviews I've done.

Bonneville Original 9 http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37223.0/
               2nd 9 http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37670.0/

Bountiful Ridge http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40797.0/

The epic and quirky Cascades 9 hole course!!     http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36430.0/

ForestDale....Original SLC CC!  http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37509.0/

Sleepy Ridge Dye Design http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31101.0/

Soldier Hollow Gold http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40317.0/

South Mountain http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30516.0/

TalonsCove http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30272.0/

Thanksgiving Point http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,28224.0/

The Hideout http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30980.0/

WingPointe http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31462.0/


Additionally:

I've got another one in the hopper, Mountain Dell Lake course, to come out soon. I've also played most of the privates in the Park City area but haven't done any reviews on them.  I'll plan on continuing to add course reviews of the better courses in the area to grow this list.

Kalen

[Norbert P]

Joe

I'm going to give Matt the benefit of the doubt and award him 3*** for the tyop, "heard mentality."

Rich

" . . . Anyone who nose about it, I'm all ears."  Joe

Eye say Joe's quite the wordsmith.


  Last Fall, I spoke with a golf course owner that wants to build a golf course in Utah because he says that all the good courses where he vacations every year are cartball layouts and he wanted a course that he could walk.  He loves it in Utah but he seemed very frustrated by the entrenched cartball culture.   

  From trips through Utah around Moab and from marketing pictures I've seen around St. George, I've always been intrigued by the land.

[Jay Flemma]

Kalen, that is a terrific review of Bountiful Ridge.  The photos are great too.  $24?  That rocks!  Is it walkable?  I mean for a reasonably svelte, athletic type...

[Steve Wilson]

 Rihc,

As you are the tyop cazr, are you awarding Matt three Micheliin *s or just ordinary *s?

 Not that it matter much to us here in West Virginia as we only know of Michelin tires.  But with three of them and a cement block you could have a snazzy looking pick up "parked" in front of the trailer.

And in keeping with the tyop theme, enquiring mines want too no.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen, that is a terrific review of Bountiful Ridge.  The photos are great too.  $24?  That rocks!  Is it walkable?  I mean for a reasonably svelte, athletic type...

Its not unwalkable like some other mountain courses in the area, but its certainly in the tough walk category.  Most of the green to tee transitions are fairly reasonable, but there are a few on the back 9 that will get one huffing and puffing.

[Rich Goodale]

Rihc,

As you are the tyop cazr, are you awarding Matt three Micheliin *s or just ordinary *s?

 Not that it matter much to us here in West Virginia as we only know of Michelin tires.  But with three of them and a cement block you could have a snazzy looking pick up "parked" in front of the trailer.

And in keeping with the tyop theme, enquiring mines want too no.

Steve

I can't believe that you have cars now in WV, much less tires.  Did that happen in the 25 years since I was lst in Charleston?  If so, well done!

As for the question about Utah, the answer is.....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[DMoriarty]

Unfortunately, many people on this site use the heard mentality - they go to the same predictable places. No prob there -- but Utah is blessed with some of the best natural scenery in the continental USA and now golf is taking advantage of that.

Joel mentioned the Red Ledges thread that was previously posted. We have a slightly different take on that course but I see it as one of Team Nicklaus' best designs. Blends native beauty through a routing that takes advantage of all that it can offer.

Matt,  Perhaps you need to reconsider your constant shots at us for not following in your footsteps when it comes to travel for golf.   After all, if we were all receiving the kind of comp you receive to see some of these courses, we might venture out there as well.  Actually, reading between the lines in your reviews of places like Red Ledges, I probably wouldn't.  But some might.   

How is the "heard mentality" supposed to work?   You heard they might need some P.R. help and heard they provide nice comp for it, so you hustled on out there? 

Jay,  do you work similar deals with these courses?   How about with Matt's old P.R. firm?  Do they compensate you for referrals as well?  I know you say you have worked with them in the past on projects . . . What does that entail?

_____________________________________________

Kalen, I've read and appreciate your reviews on public golf in the area.   Based on what else you have seen elsewhere (public and private,) would you say that the golf in Utah deserves special accolade once we move past the affordability and accessibility factors?    If so could you explain why and offer examples. 

Thanks. 

[Kalen Braley]

David,

Public golf in Northern Utah is very good as it relates to other areas....

Due to the quality of courses, the nice variety, thier inexpensive green fees, good conditioning, and never packed tee sheets... public access golf is nothing short of awesome here.  In the aggregate, I would put public golf up against anything I've seen in any other city out West when all these factors are considered, (except maybe the Denver area which I suspect is better).  I literally never pay more than $50 to play here and rarely over $40.  I've lived in both the bay area and Spokane area and would easily put No. Utah public golf above both of those.

There are less privates here but the ones I've played in Park City are pretty darn good...granted I haven't played Red Ledges or GlenWild which tend to the get the most accolades here on GCA.com.

Now all that being said, while its true they have lots of good quality public layouts, they don't have anything really worth a special trip in my opinion.  So its great if you live here because they are worth the 30-45 minute drive, but I wouldn't be flying in from out of town to see any of them. 

I'm not a very travelled golfer, especially by GCA.com standards as I've only played 110 or so courses....but for reference point, only 4 utah courses make my top 20 list and they are all in the high teens.  I suspect Sand Hollow, Coral Canyon, GW, and RL would have a chance to make it when I get around to playing them....but would likely only bump out the existing 4 courses in the teens.

[Jay Flemma]

No, I have never been compensated by any golf course, nor the Hamilton Group.

You just have rater/writer envy and have for years.  Guys, just ignore him...he's on another shameless, pointless, and evidence-less smear campaign.  Anything to smear Flemma and Ward and anyone else who doesn't buy into his theories.

David, I won't respond to you anymore on this board, but also will not tolerate slander.  You throw out lies and false rumors knowing they are not true or with reckless disregard for their falsity.  You do it to deliberately suppress discussions started by people you and your friends don't like, and about courses/architects you and your friends don't like or against whom they harbor a grudge.

Everyone knows just to stay away from you as you are sociopath troll.  I have had enough of your vile accusations.  You nave no right to accuse anyone of misconduct.  None.  These slanders have been intentional and repeated.   And you've rightly been rebuked for them every single time.  Yet, you persist in doing so, oblivious to the damage such statements have done to whatever sliver of a reputation you may once have had around here.  No wonder you are always alone.  No one can stand your miserable company.

At this point, you need to go away and stay away.  You have clearly outlived any welcome you ever had here and you have earned every word of rebuke and scorn that comes your way and every second of cold-shoulder silence you get around here.

[DMoriarty]

David,

Public golf in Northern Utah is very good as it relates to other areas....

Due to the quality of courses, the nice variety, thier inexpensive green fees, good conditioning, and never packed tee sheets... public access golf is nothing short of awesome here.  In the aggregate, I would put public golf up against anything I've seen in any other city out West when all these factors are considered, (except maybe the Denver area which I suspect is better).  I literally never pay more than $50 to play here and rarely over $40.  I've lived in both the bay area and Spokane area and would easily put No. Utah public golf above both of those.

There are less privates here but the ones I've played in Park City are pretty darn good...granted I haven't played Red Ledges or GlenWild which tend to the get the most accolades here on GCA.com.

Now all that being said, while its true they have lots of good quality public layouts, they don't have anything really worth a special trip in my opinion.  So its great if you live here because they are worth the 30-45 minute drive, but I wouldn't be flying in from out of town to see any of them. 

I'm not a very travelled golfer, especially by GCA.com standards as I've only played 110 or so courses....but for reference point, only 4 utah courses make my top 20 list and they are all in the high teens.  I suspect Sand Hollow, Coral Canyon, GW, and RL would have a chance to make it when I get around to playing them....but would likely only bump out the existing 4 courses in the teens.

Thanks Kalen,  That is what I had gathered from your past posts.

As for the topic of this thread, I think you have answered it.   First you noted that you (and a few others) have discussed the public courses in Utah.  Second, you answered why more haven't with this . . . 

Now all that being said, while its true they have lots of good quality public layouts, they don't have anything really worth a special trip in my opinion.  So its great if you live here because they are worth the 30-45 minute drive, but I wouldn't be flying in from out of town to see any of them. 

We generally tend to focus on a pretty high quality of courses around here, and I think that this explains why Utah isn't discussed as often as some places.    Don't get me wrong, I find the reviews that you post on Utah to be interesting, helpfu , and informative especially if one might find themselves out there.  But those types of reviews don't necessarily garner too much discussion because not many know the courses in question, nor are the necessarily of the high quality of some of the great courses people to tend to discuss.

[DMoriarty]

Jay,  You've edited your post above so many times, I am not sure to what to respond.  

You've removed some of the snide and defamatory remarks in your first few attempts at a coherent post, but your latest still falls well short of coherence and contains more garbage.    

As for my question, it is an honest question and has nothing to do with raters.  After all, you consider yourself a "golf writer" don't you?   I asked because I read somewhere where you claimed to put on a press week with the Hamilton Group for some course or another, so I was curious.   Surely as an attorney you understand the reasons behind the rules regarding disclosing conflicts, so I would think you would understand why I and others are curious about such things.  If someone is receiving benefits at the same time they are pumping up courses or designers or calendars or whatever, then they should disclose that, don't you agree?  

[ADDITION:  I've been reminded that you made the statement about working with the Hamilton Group (to put together the Press Week at Black Mesa) on one of your little homemade youtube videos that you and your friends put together.  It wasn't the creepy one with you riding between holes at Pradera, but the creepy one of you in the back of a van, apparently on your way to Black Mesa.]

As for raters' envy, I don't envy them at all. Nor do I have anything against those who rate.  But I can think of few things worse than having to play courses I have no interest in playing, when I could be playing ones I love to play.    So even with the obvious perks and access, it seems like hell to me.   Surely one can have an opinion on the process without being jealous, can't they?   Do you understand that not all opinions are personal vendettas against others, or this that too abstract for you?  

[Kalen Braley]

David,

Public golf in Northern Utah is very good as it relates to other areas....

Due to the quality of courses, the nice variety, thier inexpensive green fees, good conditioning, and never packed tee sheets... public access golf is nothing short of awesome here.  In the aggregate, I would put public golf up against anything I've seen in any other city out West when all these factors are considered, (except maybe the Denver area which I suspect is better).  I literally never pay more than $50 to play here and rarely over $40.  I've lived in both the bay area and Spokane area and would easily put No. Utah public golf above both of those.

There are less privates here but the ones I've played in Park City are pretty darn good...granted I haven't played Red Ledges or GlenWild which tend to the get the most accolades here on GCA.com.

Now all that being said, while its true they have lots of good quality public layouts, they don't have anything really worth a special trip in my opinion.  So its great if you live here because they are worth the 30-45 minute drive, but I wouldn't be flying in from out of town to see any of them. 

I'm not a very travelled golfer, especially by GCA.com standards as I've only played 110 or so courses....but for reference point, only 4 utah courses make my top 20 list and they are all in the high teens.  I suspect Sand Hollow, Coral Canyon, GW, and RL would have a chance to make it when I get around to playing them....but would likely only bump out the existing 4 courses in the teens.

Thanks Kalen,  That is what I had gathered from your past posts.

As for the topic of this thread, I think you have answered it.   First you noted that you (and a few others) have discussed the public courses in Utah.  Second, you answered why more haven't with this . . . 

Now all that being said, while its true they have lots of good quality public layouts, they don't have anything really worth a special trip in my opinion.  So its great if you live here because they are worth the 30-45 minute drive, but I wouldn't be flying in from out of town to see any of them. 

We generally tend to focus on a pretty high quality of courses around here, and I think that this explains why Utah isn't discussed as often as some places.    Don't get me wrong, I find the reviews that you post on Utah to be interesting, helpfu , and informative especially if one might find themselves out there.  But those types of reviews don't necessarily garner too much discussion because not many know the courses in question, nor are the necessarily of the high quality of some of the great courses people to tend to discuss.

David,

I would call that a pretty fair assessment.

For me personally I like doing course reviews and so I certainly haven't hesitated writing up and posting reviews for the better public courses in the area.  At the same time, I'm certainly also aware that of the courses I've played I haven't seen anything that is top 100 worthy on either the public or private side.  However when it comes to "bang for your buck" type ratings lists, I would be the 1st one advocating the virtues of what Northern Utah has to offer.

Overall, the golf scene here really fits in well with what is Utah's biggest asset and that is its outdoors activities.  Whether it be golf, mountain hiking, biking, off-roading/4 wheeling, skiing, rafting, exploring, fishing, boating, National parks, etc, etc....the state as a whole has a ton to offer.  So when one visits to do some of those other things, be sure to squeeze in some golf!! 

[DMoriarty]

I see that after your first post you have decided to up the ante.  

You need to pull out your barbri book or whatever it is you use for legal research and check up on a few things.  I am not a practicing lawyer, but even a lay person such as myself can tell you that what you think you are accusing me of is libel, not slander, and ironically you are libeling me in the process.  Perhaps you should consider leaving the bogus not so veiled threats of litigation to the litigators?  I can recommend some excellent ones if you would like.

Also, Jay, perhaps you could explain to me how it is that my asking you a question, based on your own past representations of having worked with the Harrison group to set up a Press Week, could possibly ever be slander, or libel, or whatever you think it is?   Because I am not following you here.   Again, perhaps you need a litigator to explain the concepts to you.   Unfortunately, I cannot because I am not currently practicing.  Plus even if I was practicing, since you have chosen me as your latest victim of your empty threats of litigation, it would be a conflict.  

If you'd like some examples of some actionable falsehoods, I suggest you check your own posts.  Otherwise, get off your hi-horse.   You may be able to scare some away with your bullshit legal proclamations, but I know better.  

[Jay Flemma]

Because the article itself has the disclaimer in it:

http://www.cybergolf.com/golf_news/black_mesa_golf_media_week_gilligans_island_with_dinosaurs

From the piece:

"this week I help Eddie Peck, John Frew and Kevin Sniffen of the Hamilton Group host the golf media to see one of the public golf wonders of the world - Black Mesa Golf Club in New Mexico."

All I did was agree to come and meet people and have a good time with them.  I don't work for them, and have never gotten paid by them.

[Matt_Ward]

Sand Hollow and The Hideout are two of UT's best public layouts.

Sand Hollow has taken public golf to another level with its recent opening in the greater St. George area -- it's located in Hurricane just minutes from town. I've provided info on it as well as a few others.

Hats off to John Fought for demonstrating a consistent output in terms of golf design.

The Hideout is located on the southeast side of the state in Monticello. I liked the course but there have been reported issues of conditioning matters which have needed a fair amount of attention. Forrest Richardson -- a regular poster here provides for a layout that is blessed to have some fine topopgraphy and a slew of holes where placement is a major element needed to play well there.

Both courses are completely different from one another.

Affordable and walkable for those who seek that route and the layouts are quite fun and challenging.

Sand Hollow and The Hideout are worthy of no less the kind of acclaim that other public courses of this type are mentioned here on GCA -- for those who trek through those areas of UT -- be sure to have your clubs handy to play these two layouts. UT is still not in Colorado's league for depth of quality and affordable public layouts but it's making some clear progress on that front in my mind.