[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

As I said, the club website is but one of my sources... not the only source. I am looking forward to your later posting...

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

In all fairness, we've seen that club histories are not always accurate, even at special clubs like PV.

I'm content to wait until all the evidence is presented before making a judgement.

One of Quaker Ridge's greatest assets, which is also one of their biggest problems is/were the majestic trees that bordered every hole, limiting sunlight and air cirulation.

Quaker Ridge has lost some or most of their green several times in the last few years.

From an outsider's perspective, many clubs gravitated toward lush, green conditions for many years.
Those conditions had a negative effect on play, and eventually, on the health of the golf course.

Quaker Ridge has the basic foundation to be a great golf course, they just have to alter a long standing culture and move toward firm, fast conditions with an emphasis on tree removal.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

From the Met Golfer archives, probably in the 1980s:

By 1914 most of the land that would soon become QR was owned by Bradford Rhodes, a Larchmont banker,with a small plot to the north owned by Martha LaFurgy. Much of the property was farmland,dotted with apple orchards. Early in 1914 Rhodes sold 112 acres to the "Metropolitan Golf Links," a stock corporation  headed by a Westchester entrepreneur named Hipwell and a Scottish accountant by the name of W. John Baird. Metropolitan then leased the land for ten years to to the Quaker Ridge Field and Country club. A 3-hole course was laid out that season and expanded to 9 holes in 1915 by John Duncan Dunn, a nephew of "Young" Willie Dunn and grandson of "Old" Willie Dunn. Once the pro at Ardsley, Dunn's major credit as an architect had been been his collaboration with Walter Travis on the landmark course at Ekwanok Country Club in Vermont.

Although no diagram exists, it is thought that the essence of Dunn's course remains today as parts of the first, 15th through 18th, tenth, seventh,eigth and ninth holes.

The Metropolitan Golf Links was beset by financial problems,however. Baird and Hipwell underestimated the costs and consequently,on December 19,1915,a small successor group of former Quaker Ridge country Club members formed, and chaired by Otto Elsass. At a meeting held in the Hotel Majestic on January 5,1916,the Quaker Ridge Golf Club was founded with 28 original members. Most notable  of these was William Rice Hochster,who was added to the organizational committee at this time. The new group purchased the Quaker Ridge Country Club's lease on Febrauary 18, 1916, and legally incorporated on February 21, by this time boasting 92 members. Encouraged by positive recommendations from the leading architect A.W. Tillinghast and Baltusrol professional George Low, they quickly purchased the land they were leasing from Bradford Rhodes for the sum of $175,000.00. Tillinghast then proceeded build 11 new golf holes,while at the same time radically revising seven of the old holes. The new 18 hole course opened for play on June1, 1918, and is now generally regarded as a Tillinghast "original." For several years the course played to a par of 70 at 6173 yards.

When the time came in 1924 for a major revision of the course, Hochster was there to carry out Tillinghast's plans. He lived in a house just to the right of the first green. That change came after the club purchased 28 acres from Martha LaFurgy for $35,000.00. The changes that Tillinghast recommended and Hochster implemented in 1924 brought the course into basically its present configuration. Four new holes(3,4,1213) were built at that time,and two others altered-the first green was moved from behind the fairway bunker, and the second,originally the third, was given its dogleg. At the same time, four holes were abandoned. The old second hole was a short par3 near the tennis facility that played to a punchbowl green. The fourth at that thime played from behind the 14th tee over the 13th green,to the present fourth green,directly over the "pit"  to the left of that green today, but which in those days extended completely across the "front" of the green. The old 12th hole was was a par3 to the right of the present 11th green,playing over a creek. And the 13th then was a short par4 that made a sharp turn to the right near its green,which was situated out in front of today's 14th tee.

More to come...

[Steve_ Shaffer]

During the years 1963-64, Robert Trent Jones and his associate Frank Duane worked on the course.rebuilding/enlarging 16 tees and revising the bunkering. Some 29 traps were eliminated and others "moved" so as to challenge the better players rather than penalize the average ones. The club also supported an ongoing tree planting program since that time to better define the fairways and also to replace old trees that had been lost to storm damage. Over 500 trees have been planted during the past 15 years under the direction of Green Superintendent Anthony Savone.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TEPaul,

In all fairness, we've seen that club histories are not always accurate, even at special clubs like PV.

I'm content to wait until all the evidence is presented before making a judgement.

Pat,

While club histories have been shown to be innaccurate from time to time, my impression is that golf club atlas generally believes that they are almost never accurate.  Further, some of us ask historians like Phil and any club we discuss to "prove" that their own documentation isn't faluty (i.e., the double negative)

I guess I just don't like the idea that these clubs are guilty of historical treachery until proven otherwise.

I think the real deal is that most club histories summarize their design attributions, mostly because that's about as much as members care to know. Only a few of us would want to drill down into the details, like Frank Duance influencing the 3rd green because RTJ had to go to the bathroom.

I also think the real deal is that because they weren't so inclined to be obsessed by attribution that there tended to be a lot more chefs stirring the pot than just the name gca.  Maybe not much has changed today, although the contracts for design and the attributions are more important and formal, but we still have greens chairs, contractors, superintendents, pros, design associates, etc. who all get involved and influence the design somehow.

[Michael J. Moss]

Jeff Brauer:

As long as the Club History doesn't turn out to be "spin." People have forever referred to QR as an AW Tillinghast masterpiece. It may be a very, very good golf course - one of the best in the Met area regardless of its provenance. However, if we find out that the venerated AW Tillinghast only designed let's say half the existing holes at Quaker, can we include it in any comparisons with the other more "pure" AWT designs, like the two Winged Foot courses and Fenway? Those three courses each have 18 greens that are unquestionably AWT.

If it turns out that the course we today call QR was actually designed by a committee of architects over the years, we can love it as much, but the conversation has to change. It can no longer be called the best (or near best) AWT course in the area. It has to be admired in much the same way as Wykagyl , which has a long and interesting architectural narrative.

Let's hear the truth. We can handle the truth! My sense is the AW Tillinghast banner, long flown by the Quaker Ridge membership, might be describing only a small amount the story. Tom MacWood, can you shed any additional light?

This to me is exciting stuff.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Brauer,

Some club histories have a restricted view of history, depending on the author.
Other times the author has limited resources or relies on the memories of friends and/or older members.
Usually club histories are a product of an individual or a few individuals at a particular point in time.

I like club histories, although very few of them are focused on architecture, which is where my interest lies.

I recently obtained the history of several clubs and am enjoying the read.

It would seem that the early part of the 20th Century was a fascinating time, an age of elegance and big undertakings when golf was becoming a popular sport.

[Tom MacWood]

Here are a number articles dealing with the early history of the club in chronological order. All are from the NY Times with the exception of the dark copy from the Scarsdale Inquirer.

[Tom MacWood]

.....

[Tom MacWood]

Hare are a few articles dealing with redesign in the mid-20s:

[Rick Wolffe]

Interesting stuff on Quaker Ridge...

Does anyone know when Tillinghast's par-3 2nd hole was lost and replaced with the par 4?  If it was done while Tilly was alive he would have been really pissed off...IMO

I recall reading Tilly's letters on the design and construction of Baltimore CC's five farms course in which he made his case that the tennis members preferred location for the new tennis courrts would severly impact the design integrity of the golf course.

In any event, Tillinghast lays claim to the Quaker as one of his 18 hole designs.  He did not classify his work at Quaker as reconstruction or expansion of an existing course.  He claims this as in 18 hole design in his 1925/1926 statement of qualifications/brochure, which is posted on the Tillinghast web site at,

http://www.tillinghast.net/cms/node/306

In this piece Tilly lists Quaker 7th in a grouping of 40 "Eighteen Hole Courses."  Not sure why he ordered the courses as he did, it is not in alpha order and does not appear to be in date order, although Shawnee is listed first.  Quaker Ridge is listed ahead of San Francisco.

An earlier advertisement by Tilly appears to tout the reconstruction work being done in 1920 at Quaker, Shawnee, San Francisco and some others.

[Tom MacWood]

The dates of the articles are listed by the green paperclips below each.

[V. Kmetz]

Jaeger,

Thank you for your detailed follow-up to my earlier post which focused on QR "short-comings," which I stress are just small points of notice - when comparing QR with, in and to the pantheon of classic design, especially Tillinghast.

When I read your post I can't help but think we are almost in perfect symmetry when we look at Quaker...first and foremost, we find it enjoyable, fair fun and has a lot of pleasing golf tasks required for success, but in what you cited, I sense an even more specific agreement:

1.  We both feel a little flat about the wide spread of time between Par 5s (but like both those fives) especially when further accentuated by back to back threes in the middle (though we both love those 3s - I agree with you the 9th is a just awesome one-shot architecture)

2.  Even if we disagree about our preferences regarding the closing stretch, we both, at least, notice that it is a legitimate "quality" or "characteristic" that enters ones reflection on a round of the course.  To clarify my views, I look at every course with "Level-Fours" mentality, speaking in terms of Par, a 72.  I look at Par3s that way and Par5s that way. "How can I make four or better here?" is what I see on every tee box.  So, the number on the card doesn't bother me at all - it's just that with the yardage and specifics of design #17 is the only one that affords me a chance to get on or within 75 yards of the green in one stroke.  I don't have to have that everywhere, but sprinkled in my "quest for fours," I want some opportunities use a tee (Par 3) or wedge (Par5) to get my numbers, especially in the close of fine, fine course.

3.  We both aren't as crazy about 6 and 7 as many others are.  I don't find any charm or worth in 7 at all.  I find it an un-friendly, awkward hole, the kind you find on 1970s development courses with property concerns.  It wouldn't even be good if the card said "Par 5" on it  Maybe it was better in a less overgrown day when the properties adjacent to the inside OB dogleg corner were undeveloped and there were an absence of trees (ie; you could SEE the risk/reward landing spot and hit draws or fades to it)  As is, most of the golfing population would be a fool to play that hole near the right, especially at medal play - you can't even ascertain what the proper line or height is to that side to even make a strategic choice.  I mentioned it before in the previous post; I don't like the turf in that sweet spot either.  It's alternately rocky and bald here, damp and mushy there - I think that fairway doesn't get nearly enough light or air, primarily because of that OB jungle, and the taller sparser trees on the left side of the fairway.  You wrote about #7 (and 6): "2 perfect and long shots just to reach the greens, and then they only get harder from there. I have seen plenty of people putt off the green on #7, thats if they dont pick up first." That describes a sour and merely difficult hole to me.  I can make a Par 5 here in my living room with a 4 1/2" cup that you couldn't triple bogey, that's no great feat: to make something hard.  I think 7 is really, a mediocrely- routed design merely fitted in its way because, "that's how the property goes. I think the analogies to WFE #5 and BB #1 are only in the general sense that they are sharp dog-legs to the right; BB 1 has playing width and better sight of the construct of the hole, no OB or creek;  WFE 5 is admittedly similar but more pleasing in that the safe line (to the left) is more clearly defined as well as being shorter to a more interesting and amusing target, yet guarded by an awkward rough slope if you drive TOO safely.  Also no creek and the OB isn't near as close as at QR 7

4.  We both seem to like the 14th and both fell it is a largely ignored yet superb hole in this well-regarded course.  I am eager to see older photographs of what the "20 bunker, no creek version" looked like.  I'll bet it was an inspiring appearance.  You referenced BethpageB #4 as genetically-linked to this design, I'll give you a better one...Baltusrol Lower #18 (#17 in a way too!)  BTW:  BB#4 is the finest Par 5 in America, if it were on the Back 9 of Aug.Natl. or more routinely appeared in televised championships, or was the 18th hole of the course - many more would agree with me.

Thanks for your response and thank everyone for the discussion.

cheers

vk

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Those are good articles, thanks for posting them. Unfortunately there isn't a single thing in any of them that contradict what the history of the Club, its records or its website states.

For example, the 7/29/1916 article states that the links are being CONSTRUCTED under the supervision of George Low, Peter Lees and A.W. Tillinghast. CONSTRUCTED, not DESIGNED. Tilly designed the course and the three oversaw its construction, that is all. Tilly designed a number of courses and both employed and worked with others who supervised their construction during these years. That had no bearing on his being the course designer.

As for the course changes in the mid-20's, the 6/27/1926 article states, "the man who has been largely responsible for the improvements is William R. Hochster, the President, who has worked with the might and main to put the club into the championship class anmd who has evidently succeeded..."

How do you take the idea that Hochster DESIGNED the course changes from that? The club clearly states that Tilly was brought back in 1925 to plan the changes and, as the article that Steve posted from the Met Golfer states, "Hochster was there to carry out Tillinghast's plans..."

As Rick pointed out, in 1920 Tilly advertised that he was in the process of "Reconstructing" Quaker Ridge, so Hochster's working with Tilly in this capacity was something that he would have done before...

Here is a copy of that advertisement:

[Tom MacWood]

Phil
I searched high and low and could not find anything suggesting Tilly was involved in the mid-20s. Gil Hanse conducted his own research and came to the same conclusion. What evidence do you have that Tilly was involved in the mid-20s?

[Patrick_Mucci]

V Kmetz,

What's your assessment of each of the two par 5's at Quaker Ridge.

Great
Good
Mediocre
Poor

[Phil_the_Author]

Why from the club itself... You also were unaware that Tilly was back doing work there in 1920, something that I believe that Gil was also unaware of...

[Jaeger Kovich]

VK - Thanks... here is some more of my comments on the holes...

Pat - I'd say the par 5's fall somewhere between good and mediocre. #1 is a good hole, it works really well for an opening hole, not hard until the green. Offers a chance for birdie, and the easiest shot on the course is the 2nd (layup). #14 is mediocre, but could be excellent if restored properly.

I've said before I don't know the historical facts, but if you think about each of the holes, just about all of them show direct relation to Tillinghast design theory... If Tilly actually made the plans to be like this, not exactly sure, but it sure seems at least the got some really good impersonators to me!

#1, 510 yard par 5. There is a hole nearly identical at Ridgewood Country Club... Plays uphill at the end. Huge bunker 60 yards short of the green making the hole play as a true 3-shotter. I have only seen this green reached by pros, and top-amateur players. The green slopes hard back to front. Bunkers on both sides, grass bunker on right side of fairway has been grassed over and 2 "chocolate drops" on left haven't always been there.

#2, 405 yard par 4. OB Right, a great example of "Tilly" using a dominant tree to define the hole. The large tree on the corner of the dog-leg right forces a fade of the tee to gain distance. A good drive down the left leaves you in the trees. Two tiered green, with bunkers on both sides. "Dominant" tree behind green.

#3, 413 yard par 4, par 5 for women. OB Right, what you see is what you get. Bunkers on both sides of the fairway and green. Green slopes mostly right-left, but dont be surprised if your putt goes the other way. "Dominant" tree behind green.

#4,  384 yard par 4. OB Right Split fairway, forced carry. No problem for most men, extremely difficult for women. You are a fool if you play to the right. Big tree on left blocks out shorter hitter if not accurate. 2 "chocolate drops on left" shared with 12 haven't always been there. Fairway slopes hard right-left in approach. There is a pond on the left (has been expanded over the years) and a squarish green that falls off steep on the left. Bunker on left covers the entire side and wraps around on the front making a forced carry if going for a left pin. Bunker right is shorter than it appears (Tilly deception trick?!) Ridges running down middle of green, when in doubt, it goes towards the water! New/original specimen tree will be planted soon.

#5, 151 yard par 3. OB Right, Water hazard in front. Classic "Tilly" short hole. He never minded a cross hazard on a short hole, bunkers behind the green, and on both sides. The pond has changed over the years, pond has been expanded and wall has been built. Big ridge splits green, so it plays like two. The most misread putt on the course is hear... It will break up the hill on the left! Bunkers were changed last year by Gil Hanse, and there is fescue way left. "Dominant" pine tree behind green, shares with 6 tee.

#6, 434 yard par 4. #1 handicap and most talked about hole on the course. OB Right and Long and creek on left for first 300 yards. Trees have been taken out left by the creek over the years, 2 bunkers have been grassed in over the years, one short of the big tree, the other 110 yards out. I'm not sure if the tree has always been there either, but it clearly dominants this hole, and there is another one at the end of the creek, so you must fade your drive off the tee, carry the tree with a hook, or hit a brilliantly straight drive! Green plays uphill, over the bunker on the left and around the tree, big deep bunkers on both sides of the green. The bunkers have changed over the years, the one on the right may have been grass mounding, and the left bunker may have come down much further in the fairway. Green slopes right to left. Bogey feels like par, I have only made 1 birdie here.

#7 419 yard par 4. the second most talked about hole. OB Right is clearly in your mind on this tee, creek must be crossed, but is very short, only co. The "Tiger-line" can cut off the trees, like at Bethpage #1, "Tilly?!" Trees are in the drive zone left as well, including a "dominant tree"! Long drives not up the right either catch the slope or go through left. Accuracy is rewarded just as distance is because of the  angle to the uphill green. A forced carry, most lay up short of the creek, 125 yards out. Bunkers on both sides of the green, and 2, just beyond the creek must be carried. A helping bunker beyond the green protects from Griffen Ave and OB. Front to back Green.

#8, 335 yard par 4. OB Right for the last time. Rough mounding in the middle that split the fairway.They appeared in all the photos I have ever seen, 1925 and on!  Easily carried by scratch players, left side is safe, but the ride side gives you the best angle. "Chocolate drops" on either side of the fairway exist now, but not always. Bunkers on both sides of the green, reshaped last year by Hanse. Flattest green on the course. Some might tell you all putts break towards Griffen.

#9 143 yard par 3. Clearly inspired by the redan, a "Tilly trait", this triangular shaped green is fortified by bunkers. Slopes hard right-left and front-back past center. You cant play to front pins. 3rd bunker left sometimes appears in photos, Hanse changed the back bunker pair to a single bunker last fall. Trees have been taken out, but a clear "dominant" tree off the right corner is the target. Right side has changed with addition of 10th tee 1/2 way house and clubhouse renovations. I wonder if "Tilly" designed the cartpath that goes around the back too!!!!

#10 186 yard par 3. The George Washing Tree. "Tilly" has a number of examples where his holes are sighted for historical reasons, ex. the Duel Hole. Surrounded by bunkers. Huge green, Tilly says long par -3s should have bigger targets, fairway for those who cant reach and variety. Recent changes by Hanse

#11 372 yard par 4. Clear example of Tilly's master pit. Forced carry at the green. The wall over the creek has changed and trees have come out right of the green, which slopes towards the water. Tree defines the hole with the master pit, play down the right side or get blocked out on a short par 4. Bunkers short and back left. Hanse changed single fairway bunker to set of 3, more changes to come this fall.

#12 403 yard par 4. Plays very long up the hill. Used to be a chute of trees to drive through, fescue has been added, and a creek must be crossed, not really in play, but pond from 4 and 5 catches snap hooks. Bunker on right side of fairway, just expanded, and trees everywhere. Grassed in bunker 60 yards short left has just been revived with sand by hanse. Both greenside bunkers were just renovated and grass bunker also on right, but I have only seen 3 balls in here ever! Steepest green on course, front to back is the real defense for this hole.

#13, 209 yard par 3. Reef hole with Birritz styled green. Clearly "tilly" here. 2nd bunker on right has been grassed over, looks like it could have been the hole from the tillinghast association logo. "Chocolate drops" left have changed over the years and bunkers are currently being reshaped by hanse. More fairway is also being restored here.

#14 508 yard par 5. Double Dog Leg with a great hazard style forced carry, this hole is clearly related to Fenway 3, Baltusrol 17, and Bethpage Black #4 and many more. Bunkers and trees have changed dramatically over the years. Hogs back green slits into a right and left portions. Classic "Tilly"

#15 375 Yard par 4. The green complex for #15 on WFW is only about a 3-wood from this tee... and they might as well be the same hole! This green is smaller and defined by a large elephant. Dominant tree forces accuracy on tee. Classic "Tilly"

#16 417 yard par 4. Two tee areas. Creek left. Bunkers on both sides of the fairway. Two tiered green with bunkers right, back and left, approach is bent to the left. Long Demanding and straight forward. Dont be long.

#17 344 yard par 4. Dominant tree shared with #15 behind green. Doubles as the driving range in the morning, Bunkers on both sides of the green, forced carry on this short hole... Smells like tilly ideals to me.

#18 410 yard par 4. Drives must negotiate the trees, but a good drive is rewarded with extra distance down the hill. Fairway bends around big tree left. Fairway has been changed by Hanse, as new/original bunker was added 55 yards short right. Bunkers both sides of the green to the biggest putting surface on the course. Plays back to the clubhouse. Long, hard and straight forward finishing hole.


You guys tell me... This place just stinks like Tilly! its one of the best walking courses I have ever played. it has changed a lot over the years, but for some reason it fits what we think his very adaptable design style was. I have a theory that he repeated the same holes at a number of courses and you can see it here. #1, 3, 5, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, all fit my definition at least! As Ken Venturi said "Its the best course you will never play!"

Quaker has been like a home to me, and I am very thankful!

[Jaeger Kovich]

Philip - Tilly came back while working at WF, correct?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jaeger,

# 3 East at Ridgewood has the similarity of configuration found at # 1 at QR.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Pat - I think they had it as #12 on the composite course for the Met-Open, didn't know the actual configuration. They also played it as a
par-4.

[Michael J. Moss]

Tom and Phil,

Quaker Ridge should have some document or report written by the Club President or Green Chairman that went out to the membership describing the renovation from the mid-late 1920s. It's hard to believe they don't have the evidence of who did what in their archives. The Club's Board minutes should mention contracts with architects and consultants. Golf course construction committee updates might be entered as well. In their absence, it is difficult to ascribe proper credit.

Nevertheless, it is reasonable to surmise that Tillinghast was the architect who carried out the wishes of William Rice Hochster, the Club's "driving force."

[Tom MacWood]

Phil
I knew Gil had access to the club's internal documents, but I didn't realize you did too. When did you go over their material and what did you discover?

Are you certain those courses listed as reconstruction were all in 1920? QR and Shawnee were were reconstructed in 1917, Spring Lake in 1918 and Norwood in 1919. Peter Lees was involved at Glen Ridge too, so that is likely prior to 1920 as well.  

[Phil_the_Author]

Jaeger, yes.

Michael,

"Quaker Ridge should have some document or report written by the Club President or Green Chairman that went out to the membership describing the renovation from the mid-late 1920s. It's hard to believe they don't have the evidence of who did what in their archives. The Club's Board minutes should mention contracts with architects and consultants. Golf course construction committee updates might be entered as well. In their absence, it is difficult to ascribe proper credit." What makes you believe that they do not?

"Nevertheless, it is reasonable to surmise that Tillinghast was the architect who carried out the wishes of William Rice Hochster, the Club's "driving force.""

I think that is a bit misleading. Hochster wanted his to be the great championship course and that is what is "driving force" was. He understood the need for someone of Tilly's ability to do the design and he was the person who convinced the membership to spend the money and oversaw the project. He didn't do the redesign and most likely did not run the construction crew beyond what any Club President would normally do. In the mid-1920's Tilly had several crews of his own at work both in the area and elsewhere and most likely would have had his own men supervising the day-to-day work and details.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

The advertisement CLEARLY states that this was "Some Work of 1920..." Tilly tweaked Shawnee a number of times throughout the 1920's.

You also asked, "I knew Gil had access to the club's internal documents, but I didn't realize you did too. When did you go over their material?"

I didn't. I have a trip planned there for early next spring for that very purpose. My 'awareness' of what is there comes from other sources that I trust, and I will leave it at that. If that means that you don't want to accept what I have shared a sfactual I will completely understand.

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