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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #100 on: October 27, 2009, 10:32:59 AM »
Tom, I'm sorry if you missed the humor.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #101 on: October 27, 2009, 10:35:18 AM »
Bill,

The hole at Deal is on relatively flat land, next to the sea, # 16 at NGLA has huge elevation changes from tee to DZ to green.

As to the amphitheatre like quality of the green at Deal, yes, it's there, but, that amphitheatre like quality exists at many green sites in the UK.

What's different about NGLA's 16th green is its true saucer like green, within the amphitheatre.

I don't see # 16 at NGLA as anywhere near a replica of # 3 at Deal.

TEPaul

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #102 on: October 27, 2009, 11:41:22 AM »
JimK:

I never miss the humor----either way!

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #103 on: October 27, 2009, 12:39:40 PM »
Bryan,

Thanks for the  clarification on Westward Ho.

There are only 4 holes (maybe 5) at NGLA that could be considered holes closely modeled on holes abroad, and even with these there are significant differences (improvements, CBM would say.). Many others had features and aspects inspired by aspects of holes abroad but they were applied in an original manner and in original arrangements as the site allowed.  From various descriptions, the Cape was a step beyond even this category.  It was considered a new concept, one not based upon any particular hole or features or even on a combination of these.  It was thought to be original.  Unique.  Nothing else like it anywhere.

That isn't my opinion or analysis.  Rather, it is how the hole was described by Macdonald, Whigham, and others with a very good understanding of what else was out there.  So this notion that the hole and concept must have been based on some other hole or holes is revisionist history.

I don't know about the hole at Dornoch.  I recall that someone (Rich?) claimed CBM never made it to Dornoch, but idont know.  However if we are to believe CBM, HJW, and others this was not the inspiration nor was any other hole.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Paul I generally agree with much of what you wrote in your commercial break but not all of it:

1.  the transition from finding holes on the links to applying those principles elsewhere was neither direct  nor fluid.  While it may seem onviously the best approach to us, for whatever reason those early practicioners creating courses on non-links (as opposed to finding them on the links) were not transferring the concepts and arangements to their courses, at least not generally.  Macdonald established that this was the correct way to approach design and provided a terrific example of how to do it, thus establishing the design approach of what we think of as the golden age of golf design.

2.  As strange as it may seem, in the case of the Cape concept, it is not clear that anyone had ever found this type of land formation and used it in the manner that CBM did at NGLA.  If they had, then certainly CBM, HJW, were not aware of it, nor were the various commentators on both continents who commented (favorably and less favorably) on the hole.  And this hole may have beenthe most famous hole on by far the most talked about course in the World, so surely the proud Brits and Scots would have come up with a prototype if they had one!

So while your  description of the process may apply to the development of design principles generally,  it does NOT apply to this partular concept or this particular hole.

3.  Same goes for the name and description of the hole.  So far as I know,  "Cape" was not some oft used descriptive name or concept from the lexicon of early links golf, like alps or long or punchbowl or home.  The term appears to have been coined by M&W at NGLA.   At least so far as know.

4.  Those others such as Wilson, Crump, Flynn, Tillie, and others who regularly incorporated the original cape concept into their designs did so from well within CBM's long shadow.   They all knew the concept from NGLA's Cape Hole and the extensive discussion about the course and that had taken place on both continents.   And they even cooptedt he name for one of their three basic types of par 4's from CBM's Cape hole at NGLA!  What stronger evidence of the influence of CBM's  Cape hole could there be?    

So, in short, no matter how hard it usually is to trace the geneology of golf holes and names, it just isn't that complicated in this particular case.   It was a CBM hole and named by him.

That you now see the concept everywhere and see it as a basic fundamental building block of good design is a tribute to CBM, his creativity, and his tremendous influence on all who came after.

---------

Paul I just reread your post and had a thought ....  Is it possible that you are focusing on the modern understanding of the term "cape" as in a diagonal carry where the golfer can bite off as much as he/she can handle?  I ask because if that is the context of your post then it makes much more sense.   Because there just isn't that much mystery to the origins of the cape concept as they used the term in the first third of last century.      
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 01:31:03 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #104 on: October 27, 2009, 01:29:23 PM »
Bill,

The hole at Deal is on relatively flat land, next to the sea, # 16 at NGLA has huge elevation changes from tee to DZ to green.

As to the amphitheatre like quality of the green at Deal, yes, it's there, but, that amphitheatre like quality exists at many green sites in the UK.

What's different about NGLA's 16th green is its true saucer like green, within the amphitheatre.

I don't see # 16 at NGLA as anywhere near a replica of # 3 at Deal.

Based on your comments above, I wonder if you've been to Deal.

I hadn't until a couple of weeks ago, two years after my only day at NGLA.

I'm not saying the third at Deal inspired the 16th at NGLA, but there are some strong parallels.

The tee shot starts off on level ground and soon starts climbing steeply up to a plateau some 100 yards out.

The green sits well down inside a bowl, and has great contouring within the green's punchbowl surrounds.

The shot is blind from 150 yards and all you can see from closer is the top of the flagstick.

Both holes are straight.  The hole we played at Deal was a 450 yard par 4, not the par 5 it plays from the back tees.

I thought there were many parallels.

Here's where the steep hill starts at about 280 yards from the green:



From the top and looking ahead at the punchbowl:



From right in front of the green:



The green down inside the punchbowl:



Very cool green contours, from the right side:



(Thanks to John Mayhugh for the use of his photos  ;) )
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 04:37:57 PM by Bill_McBride »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #105 on: October 27, 2009, 04:38:35 PM »
Bump for Pat Mucci.......

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #106 on: October 27, 2009, 06:40:10 PM »
Bill,

By your measurements that would mean that the hill doesn't begin until you're 270 yards off the tee.
That's a rather demanding requirement, especially if there's just the slightest breeze in your face.

While NGLA's tee shot is uphill, reaching the elevated plateau isn't that challenging unless a north wind is up.
# 16 it has two cavernous depressions flanking both sides of the central spine of the fairway.
I don't believe that Deal has that configuration.

While there are similarities there are also substantive differences, but, I see what you mean by the general concept.

Was Deal one of the courses CBM studied ?


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #107 on: October 27, 2009, 07:48:53 PM »
Bill,

By your measurements that would mean that the hill doesn't begin until you're 270 yards off the tee.
That's a rather demanding requirement, especially if there's just the slightest breeze in your face.
There's a gentle uphill before the hill starts at those bunkers.  I may be 20 or 30 yards off on the 450 yards.  From the back tee as a short par 5 it plays completely differently at 510 yards.  The club is building a new tee 30 yards back to lengthen the par 5.

While NGLA's tee shot is uphill, reaching the elevated plateau isn't that challenging unless a north wind is up.
# 16 it has two cavernous depressions flanking both sides of the central spine of the fairway.
I don't believe that Deal has that configuration.  You could definitely consider those deep fairway bunkers as the challenge to the tee shot presented by the depressions at NGLA.

While there are similarities there are also substantive differences, but, I see what you mean by the general concept.

Was Deal one of the courses CBM studied ?  It could have been.  Wasn't Sahara at NGLA based on a hole at Royal st George's (Sandwich?)  That's only a couple of miles away on the north side of Princes.  I'll have to get out Scotland's Gift: Golf and see if he lists the holes that inspired NGLA.  I think George Bahto has a similar listing, will look at that as well.

Whether or not the hole at Deal inspired Macdonald, it is the best hole on a wonderful course, so happy I was able to play three rounds there at the BUDA Cup.




Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #108 on: October 27, 2009, 08:01:53 PM »
What I find most interesting about the definition of a Cape Hole is that nobody seems to mention that both shots are effected by water.  While we know there existed holes with the drive over water before NGLA and hence at least one reason why those holes weren't called Capes, were there holes with an approach to a peninsula green?  When was Dunbar's 12th built?  Were there par 3s with a peninsula green?  In other words, did CBM just take the Cape concept from two separate holes and call it original or was the peninsula green concept original? 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Michael Rossi

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #109 on: October 27, 2009, 08:05:57 PM »
In the book golf course design by Graves and Cornish they give CBM credit for the Cape design.

"The Cape. This is a Charles Blair Macdonald original - not a links hole but nevertheless a classic. It is most often a par 4 dogleg left or right with a "heroic" carry required from the tee if a golfer is to reach a green perched on a cape... An excellent example is the 5th at Mid-Ocean...In creating NLGA CBM set out to adapt British classics to his masterpiece"

Back to the cape, what characteristics are required for a golf hole to be considered a cape? Par 4, heroic carry, green site perched on a cape?

IMO par is not a requirement only the heroic carry and the green site.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 09:10:29 AM by Michael Rossi »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #110 on: October 27, 2009, 08:21:11 PM »
Bill,

None of Deal's holes are included in CBM's ideal golf course, but, that doesn't mean that it might not have influenced him.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #111 on: October 27, 2009, 09:38:52 PM »
Obvious links hole that have Cape elements are North Berwick's 2nd and Machrihanish's 1st.  And looking at some of the drawings, I think the 8th at Brancaster has some too.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #112 on: October 27, 2009, 11:12:01 PM »
Bill,

None of Deal's holes are included in CBM's ideal golf course, but, that doesn't mean that it might not have influenced him.

George Bahto doesn't mention Deal in his discussion of the Punchbowl hole in The Evangelist of Golf.

I still wonder if old CB visited Deal while playing the Sahara at Sandwich.  The coincidence wouldn't be farfetched.

TEPaul

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #113 on: October 28, 2009, 02:39:17 PM »
"I still wonder if old CB visited Deal while playing the Sahara at Sandwich.  The coincidence wouldn't be farfetched."


BillB:

Of course it's not farfetched. One has to appreciate that Macdonald made three separate architectural study trips abroad over a four year span (1902, 1904 and 1906) all or some over a number of months. In his book he says:

"I completed my research studies and brought home surveyors maps of the more famous holes; the Alps, Redan, Eden, and the Road Hole, also some twenty or thirty sketches, personally drawn, of holes embodying distinctive features, which in themselves seemed misplaced, but could be utilized to harmonize with a certain character of undulating ground and lay the foundation for an ideal hole."

Unfortunately all that material he referred to has apparently been lost. And one can't forget that it has been often said that Devereux Emmet did the same thing abroad perhaps anyway and perhaps for Macdonald.
 
 
 
 

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #114 on: October 28, 2009, 02:59:35 PM »
I recently read an extract from a club history of Machrihanish which was written in the 70's/80's, where the author (I think) talks about the first being even more of a carry from the tee back in the 1920's when he was a boy as the beach has receded or the grass has taken over to make the landing area more generous. That being the case it is easy to imagine the green being a lot nearer the shoreline.

I also came across a plan of the old Forres course near Findhorn as it existed in 1894. There is one hole where the drive cuts over the bay and the approach plays to a green which sits adjacent to a "cape" although it would appear not actually in it. Hard to say purely from the plan whether the water actually came into play.

Also I think it was Eyemouth which had/has a hole which played over the cliffs to a green which had a green with cliffs front, back and left. I'm sure there were other holes which had different elements of the Cape design.

I think therefore that maybe the ideas were out there and what Mac did was refine them and then define them.

Niall

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #115 on: October 28, 2009, 03:42:11 PM »
I recently read an extract from a club history of Machrihanish which was written in the 70's/80's, where the author (I think) talks about the first being even more of a carry from the tee back in the 1920's when he was a boy as the beach has receded or the grass has taken over to make the landing area more generous. That being the case it is easy to imagine the green being a lot nearer the shoreline.

I also came across a plan of the old Forres course near Findhorn as it existed in 1894. There is one hole where the drive cuts over the bay and the approach plays to a green which sits adjacent to a "cape" although it would appear not actually in it. Hard to say purely from the plan whether the water actually came into play.

Also I think it was Eyemouth which had/has a hole which played over the cliffs to a green which had a green with cliffs front, back and left. I'm sure there were other holes which had different elements of the Cape design.

I think therefore that maybe the ideas were out there and what Mac did was refine them and then define them.

Niall

Niall,  unless I am reading them incorrectly, in all of these descriptions you seem to be focusing on the drive over a corner.   CBM's Cape was defined by the green.    

As for the idea, it is a take on a very general idea about diagonals and angles and choices and carries, the same general idea behind most great strategic features and it is used repeatedly on his courses on all sorts of holes.

But as to the Cape Hole in particular, Macdonald thought and wrote that this particular application or arrangement was original to this particular hole.   Others with great experience on the links courses agreed with him.    The hole wasn't based on anything but sound strategic principle applied in a manner that, according to Macdonald and others, had never been done before.  

So I think it a bit inaccurate to conclude that CBM just refined and defined ideas that were already out there.    Yes it is true at the most general sense wherein all architects are always just refining ideas that are already out there.  But according to all the accounts I have seen, the Cape concept was unique, and not based on any other hole.  

I don't think anyone has yet come up with a hole yet that would have been considered a Cape as they understood it then, have they?  And they certainly have not come up with a hole that CBM and others saw and understood to be a Cape, have they?  

What I keep coming back to is this:   CBM wrote that as far as he knew the concept underlying the Cape Hole was original.   Others who knew quite a bit more about these courses than we do agreed with him.  

So why is there so much reluctance to give CBM his due?    
- Was there some sort of conspiracy to give CBM credit he did not deserve?  
- If credit for originality was what CBM was after, then why did he spend years explaining and describing all the holes he was emulating at NGLA?  
- Why was he so insistent that the only sound way to do architecture was to look to the principles underlying the great holes?    

Again, I can't help but wonder what is driving many of these posts (not yours necessarily.)    It is not as if this is my new crazy theory.  I am not the one who claimed this hole was an original concept, CBM did and others with great knowledge did as well.   Why are we so intent on second guessing them?  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

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