[Tom MacWood]

Phil
Shawnee opened May 1911. Play began at the NGLA in late 1909, and there were numerous profiles of the course prior to that including Whigham's famous article in May 1909 where he described all the holes in detail. Here is Tilly's description of the 7th at Shawnee in 1914:

"In the opinion of many the seventh hole is one of the best, although in design it is quite simple. A ridge extending out in front of the green makes a pronounced dogleg of it and the drive must be long and accurately placed before the green is opened up to the second shot. The necessity of placing the tee shot, with the second in mind, is obvious on many of the Shawnee holes."

When did Tilly first mention the Cape in his writing? I believe the Wernersville hole was designed in 1915 and Tilly's description was written in 1916.  

[DMoriarty]

I've already been berated for even suggesting that Tilly's "Cape" hole versions had differences from others, especially M&W's as their definition places the cape as being surrounded by water, but here is an example of that proves the very point of being decidedly different. This hole was designed in 1909, about the same time that NGLA was being built. It was NOT a par-4 but a 522-yard par-5; an obvious difference that shows that his design was contemporaneous to M&W's and not a copy... Point of FACT is that that Tilly's course was open to the public in May 1911, and even though there was some play at NGLA, it wasn't officially open for play until later that year in September.

Come on Phillip, you are being a big baby.  You weren't berated for this at all.  You were berated for claiming that AWT had come up with the concept of the Par 4 cape hole (as opposed to the fictional par 3 cape hole) and for claiming that AWT came up with the notion of using hazards rather than a body of water.   Neither was the case, but because you hadn't read what I had written you argued about it for quite a while before you finally figured out you were wrong.   Don't now twist it so that we were unfairly picking on you.  

Also, as is always the case on this particular your timelining leaves much to be desired.   They had been golfing on NGLA since 1909 and had played a tournament of many of the the major figures in golf in 1910, so you always trying to rely on the opening of the club house at NGLA to slip Shawnee is getting a bit old and is more evidence of what I called your proprietary treatment of Tillie.  

As for your timelining of Shawnee, I've never seen this completed 1909 plan that you often refer to, could you post it?   Is it exactly the same as the course turned out?  If so, how do you know this?

Plus, in this particular situation, the Cape hole had been discussed since 1906 in the golf press.  Both Macdonald and Whigham had written about it multiple times over those years.  Buy the spring of 1909 every reader of Scribner's magazine had heard of the hole and even had seen a schematic of its strategy, including Perry Maxwell in rural Oklahoma even though he had never even played golf much less designed a course!    
So your suggestion that somehow Tillie beat CBM to the punch on the Cape is a bit much, don't you think?  

[TEPaul]

"It's pretty simple Tom, read the article TMac posted, look at the timeline of AWT's explanation of what makes a Cape hole, and even you should be able to concede that CBM's concept was what got AWT thinking."


JimK:

I read that article and it is not the first time I've seen it; I read it many years ago, and not from Tom MacWood. I must say I cannot see from it that Tillinghast said or implied that Macdonald was where he (Tillinghast)got his ideas of a Cape Hole from (as MacWood seems to imply is obvious). All Tillie said is that Macdonald's iteration is a good example of a Cape hole; and not that Macdonald's iteration is where the idea or concept came from.

"If you don't you can use your brush to start a self-portrait."

I must say, Jim Kennedy, I have no idea at all what that remark means. Why don't you try to enlighten me about it?    

[Phil_the_Author]

David,

Sorry top disappoint you, but this "Big Baby" is NOT being "a bit too emotional" but am simply responding to your comments, especially where you misrepresent what I have stated as you once again have done.

"You were berated for claiming that AWT had come up with the concept of the Par 4 cape hole (as opposed to the fictional par 3 cape hole) and for claiming that AWT came up with the notion of using hazards rather than a body of water.   Neither was the case, but because you hadn't read what I had written you argued about it for quite a while before you finally figured out you were wrong.   Don't now twist it so that we were unfairly picking on you..."

I NEVER stated that Tilly had come up with the concept of the par-4 cape hole or with the notion of using hazards rather than a body of water. I CLEARLY stated that Tilly's definition of a "Cape" hole was as stated in his 1917 brochure. That is ALL that I said. That it is different from M&W's is true as THEY CLEARLY i when they wrote in Golf Illustrated in 1914 that it is "called the Cape hole, because the green extends out into the sea with which it is surrounded upon three sides..."

Let's see, one has a hole extending into the sea and surrounded by water on three sides the other has a sandy waste or mounds beyond which the green complex sits... sounds ths exact same thing to me all right!  

Even you should be able to see that there are at least a few differences in the two definitions...

[DMoriarty]

Here is a photo of NGLA's Cape Hole from the August 1910 American Golfer.



The photograph is curious, because there appears to be a golf course there with golfers, yet Phillip and others like to think that NGLA didn't exist until over a year later.  

[DMoriarty]

David,

Sorry top disappoint you, but this "Big Baby" is NOT being "a bit too emotional" but am simply responding to your comments, especially where you misrepresent what I have stated as you once again have done.

"You were berated for claiming that AWT had come up with the concept of the Par 4 cape hole (as opposed to the fictional par 3 cape hole) and for claiming that AWT came up with the notion of using hazards rather than a body of water.   Neither was the case, but because you hadn't read what I had written you argued about it for quite a while before you finally figured out you were wrong.   Don't now twist it so that we were unfairly picking on you..."

I NEVER stated that Tilly had come up with the concept of the par-4 cape hole or with the notion of using hazards rather than a body of water. I CLEARLY stated that Tilly's definition of a "Cape" hole was as stated in his 1917 brochure. That is ALL that I said. That it is different from M&W's is true as THEY CLEARLY i when they wrote in Golf Illustrated in 1914 that it is "called the Cape hole, because the green extends out into the sea with which it is surrounded upon three sides..."

Let's see, one has a hole extending into the sea and surrounded by water on three sides the other has a sandy waste or mounds beyond which the green complex sits... sounds ths exact same thing to me all right!  

Even you should be able to see that there are at least a few differences in the two definitions...

Come on Phillip,  you also wrote that Tillie's understanding was unique in that it applied to PAR FOURS and not just PAR THREES.  And you wrote this repeatedly before figuring out it was wrong.  And by the time Tillie wrote is 1917 Pamphlet, CBM had already designed multiple Capes without water.

Tillie was a great marketer of himself.  It is hard to find him wrtiting of a hole or concept where he does not manage to mention his own work, but surely you cannot suggest that this was a Tillie concept, can you??   If so, where does Tillie even write about it before CBM was doing it?  

[TEPaul]

"The photograph is curious, because there appears to be a golf course there with golfers, yet Phillip and others like to think that NGLA didn't exist until over a year later."


That's just another BS deflection and argumentative diversion. Noboby I'm aware of who knows anything about the real and true architectural history of NGLA (including Wilson and his committee   ) said that the golf course did not exist in 1910----it was only a question of when it formally opened for play which had a lot to do with at least one real agronomic failure at NGLA (or perhaps even two) for reasons that have been well documented from many parties!    

[Phil_the_Author]

David,

You must really enjoy misquoting and misrepresenting what I say as you do it so often. I NEVER stated anything that would deny that there was a course there and that limited play hadn't occurred prior to the official opening day as you misrepresent by stating, "Phillip and others like to think that NGLA didn't exist until over a year later" as you posted below the 1910 photo. Point of fact is that I clearly stated that they had been doing so.

But you did ask a question that I didn't answer. "As for your timelining of Shawnee, I've never seen this completed 1909 plan that you often refer to, could you post it?   Is it exactly the same as the course turned out?  If so, how do you know this?"

You'll be able to see it in the next issue of Tillinghast Illustrated that will be on-line sometime next week. It contains a partial evolution history of Shawnee up to the late 1930's. Tilly's original routing is included copied directly off the advertising document upon which he himself created and, as it states on it, drawn by Tilly's own hand.

Tilly wrote that he began work on Shawnee with the design and layout in late 1909 followed by course construction in 1910 with the course opening for play in May, 1911. Yiou can choose to believe it or not...


  

[Phil_the_Author]

Last time David as this has becaome more than a complete waste of time. I NEVER ONCE, not a single time stated that this was a Tilly concept, just that Tilly DEFINED the hole type as HE SAW IT AND DESIGNED THEM... I've said that over and over again and will now bow out of this thread...

 

[DMoriarty]

"The photograph is curious, because there appears to be a golf course there with golfers, yet Phillip and others like to think that NGLA didn't exist until over a year later."


That's just another BS deflection and argumentative diversion. Noboby I'm aware of who knows anything about the real and true architectural history of NGLA (including Wilson and his committee   ) said that the golf course did not exist in 1910----it was only a question of when it formally opened for play which had a lot to do with at least one real agronomic failure at NGLA for reasons that have been well documented from many parties!    

If you actually believe this then you haven't been paying attention, not even on this thread.  And you are wrong about the supposed agronomic failures and their timing.  I've explained this to you before repeatedly, but you weren't paying attention then either.   Or maybe your memory is just shot.   That happens they say with age, neglect of active use of ones intellect, or the repeated abuse of one's brain cells.

________________________________________

Phillip, if anyone doubts any of my representations of your posts they are above.

As for your timelining, if your implication was not that Shawnee was first, then what is the point of repeatedly pointing out that Shawnee opened before NGLA's clubhouse was ready and they had their official opening?  And what is the point of repeatedly noting that Tillie had may not have seen NGLA before the opening?   He could read couldn't he?   And wouldn't you say he was pretty well informed on what was ongoing in golf?   It is not as if NGLA was a closely held secret before the official opening was it? Tillie would have had to have been living in Oklahoma to not have known about the Cape Hole by 1909 or before, no wait he would have known in Oklahoma.  He would have had to have been living in Siberia, and that is presuming the mails would have been running very, very late to Siberia.

And Phillip, we cant count it Shawnee's as a cape hole if Tillie himself only retrospectively decided it was one in order to slip it into a self-promotion in one of his articles.  t one until 1919!

As for Shawnee, what was the date of the drawing in the advertisement?    When did it first appear as an advertisemen?  Are the holes labeled by name?  

___________________________________

Last time David as this has becaome more than a complete waste of time. I NEVER ONCE, not a single time stated that this was a Tilly concept, just that Tilly DEFINED the hole type as HE SAW IT AND DESIGNED THEM... I've said that over and over again and will now bow out of this thread...  

Again Phillip, if you are not trying to create the implication, then what is the point of almost all that you have written. From your first post it has been aimed at creating the impression that Tillie might have come up with this on his own.  Why then, if this is not your claim?
_________________________________________

I am interested in this plan of Shawnee so could you at least address my question as to its date?


Thanks.

[David Stamm]

You know, Batman has a pretty cool cape.....

[DMoriarty]

You know, Batman has a pretty cool cape.....

I'm surprised you noticed.  Aren't you usually staring at his tights? 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Phil,
Before we saw the written word of AWT you said this was his definition of an elbow and a dogleg:

"The "Elbow" would turn either without a hazard or with one that most players could carry with a "courageous shot" as Tilly put it, whereas the dog-leg turns around a hazard that it would be "impossible to carry over."

Then you said:

"Jim, finally, your conclusion that, "The article has a more full description of the differences between Doglegs and Elbows. It seems that AWT is saying here that a dogleg can't be reached from the tee, but the elbow hole can be carried. That appears to somewhat different than what he wrote in his pamphlet..." is incorrect. That is EXACTLY what he wrote in his 1917 booklet"...
 

I'm sorry Phil, but you presented AWT's words in an ungainly manner when you said the dogleg turns around a hazard that would be 'impossible to carry over". That leaves the impression of trees that are too high to carry, not just distance. It is completely clear from the article what he meant but at first it did seem at odds with what you wrote.

I'm not trying to beat you over the head Phil, but I fail to see how a man as wise as yourself cannot see the obvious similarities of the two Capes, AWT's and CBM's. Their main feature is their position in regards to the fairway, they both sit off to the side at the end of it, and secondly, they are both protected by hazardous means. 

No one seems to have called this configuration a Cape until CBM, it appears that it was unique to him,  and it was copied later by others, AWT included.

Those are the most real, the most reasonable and the most believeable facts. 

[Bryan Izatt]

After wading through all the bickering from the usual suspects, I looked up the Cape hole at RND.  Seems most references to it are referring to the Cape Bunker as the feature.  It seems to have nothing to do with the Cape concept (either of them) that are being discussed here.  So, it doesn't seem like that hole inspired CBM.

I'm left with a question for the NGLA/CBM'ophiles.  If the Cape hole at NGLA is an original concept not based on any famous hole in Scotland or England, are there any other holes at NGLA that are also original concepts.  Were not all the holes supposed to be inspired by famous holes from abroad? 

Is not Foxy at Royal Dornoch also a Cape hole of sorts, both off the tee and in the positioning of the green?

[paul cowley]

COMMERCIAL INTERRUPTION:


The only thing that I have enjoyed about this thread is Tom Paul's reference to a Doak statement;

 "Again, I think this kind of subject is tempting to discuss for a lot of reasons but I really am with a guy like Doak who I think has said it best on here----eg the whole thing is sort of like an untrackable melting pot (of ideas, opinions, suggestions etc) in the final analysis."

I like the visual of an untrackable melting pot of ideas....well stated, and appropriate when describing the so called Golden Age.

Much of the rest has become a squabble over who first coined the term, or came up with a definition, or even who first utilized or created certain land features that resemble what we now commonly refer to as a "Cape".

The land forms and features that form this type of hole have always existed, and have been utilized as a strategic element since men first started whacking a ball around with a stick.

In the beginning these "Cape style" holes were not created, but found....because this type of land feature, [a stretch of land that curves around an open hazard] is found naturally in links golf terrain.

As the game became more sophisticated, designers started to create and build this strategic concept on land where it didn't exist naturally.

Its a common design element that has been used by all golf designers.

Its very central to my "Curves of Charm Theory".

Who first used this type of land feature will never be known.

Who came up with the first "term" for this type of hole will never be known as well.

But whatever this term was, I'd bet it wasn't in English....but in Gaelic.



NOW BACK TO THE ORIGINAL PROGRAM

[Rich Goodale]

paul cowley

stop all that straight talk, please!  don't you know that threads like this one are common sense free zones?

rich

[Jim_Kennedy]

Its a common design element that has been used by all golf designers.

Its very central to my "Curves of Charm Theory".

Oh, now we know who invented it, it was you Paul.   

[James Boon]

Blimey, what did I start with such an innocent query... 

Cheers,

James

[Bill_McBride]

You know, Batman has a pretty cool cape.....

I'm surprised you noticed.  Aren't you usually staring at his tights? 

Right on cue, a perfectly snarky reply!

[TEPaul]

Paul Cowley did invent the "Curves of Charm" theory or at least he invented the term for it (I may've even been in the geographic vicinity when it came to him although I can't be 100% certain of that---but I am sure I was nearby in what might be called the "time spectrum" when if first came to him). If some of us go after him and tackle him and pin him down and apply constant nuggies to both his arms until he can't take it anymore we may  get him to admit WHERE he was when the idea first came to him and we may even get him to show us precisely how it works on the very landform he first thought of it. Shit, I'll even bring the spray paint cans so we can line the whole thing out on the ground where his novel and original idea first occured to him. Can't get much more historically accurate and FACT-based than that my little Architectural Munchkins!

[Patrick_Mucci]

After wading through all the bickering from the usual suspects, I looked up the Cape hole at RND.  Seems most references to it are referring to the Cape Bunker as the feature.  It seems to have nothing to do with the Cape concept (either of them) that are being discussed here.  So, it doesn't seem like that hole inspired CBM.

I'm left with a question for the NGLA/CBM'ophiles.  If the Cape hole at NGLA is an original concept not based on any famous hole in Scotland or England, are there any other holes at NGLA that are also original concepts.  Were not all the holes supposed to be inspired by famous holes from abroad? 

Bryan,

I think that's an interesting question, and perhaps a question of varying degrees.

The topography for # 16 is so unique, so wild, that I can't imagine it being a replica.
Certainly the area of the green, with its punchbowl green may have been inspired by another hole, but, I can't imagine the amphitheatre like surrounds as having existed elsewhere, and certainly not at any links course.

# 18 also has unusual topography that doesn't seem to lend itself to replication.

Could there be design elements that CBM observed, even minor elements that he expanded for his purposes, his architectural versions ?
Possibly, but, is it also possible that the landform cried out for an original design.
An additional question might be, did the landform dictate an original hole, with features CBM found appealing during his visits and studies ?

[Bill_McBride]

After wading through all the bickering from the usual suspects, I looked up the Cape hole at RND.  Seems most references to it are referring to the Cape Bunker as the feature.  It seems to have nothing to do with the Cape concept (either of them) that are being discussed here.  So, it doesn't seem like that hole inspired CBM.

I'm left with a question for the NGLA/CBM'ophiles.  If the Cape hole at NGLA is an original concept not based on any famous hole in Scotland or England, are there any other holes at NGLA that are also original concepts.  Were not all the holes supposed to be inspired by famous holes from abroad? 

Bryan,

I think that's an interesting question, and perhaps a question of varying degrees.

The topography for # 16 is so unique, so wild, that I can't imagine it being a replica.
Certainly the area of the green, with its punchbowl green may have been inspired by another hole, but, I can't imagine the amphitheatre like surrounds as having existed elsewhere, and certainly not at any links course.

# 18 also has unusual topography that doesn't seem to lend itself to replication.

Could there be design elements that CBM observed, even minor elements that he expanded for his purposes, his architectural versions ?
Possibly, but, is it also possible that the landform cried out for an original design.
An additional question might be, did the landform dictate an original hole, with features CBM found appealing during his visits and studies ?

Pat, take a look at the thread now on page 1 about the third hole at Deal, check out the photos and see if there's any similarity to #16 at NGLA.

[TEPaul]

"Were not all the holes supposed to be inspired by famous holes from abroad?"


No, not according to Macdonald, even if those holes that were not copies of holes abroad used some of what he called some architectural "principles" or even features of various holes abroad he referred to as "classical" but those architectural principles or features were only used in part apparently on some of the original holes of NGLA. A perhaps decent way to tell the different between template holes from abroad compared to the rest of the holes of NGLA is to simply check out the names of the holes at NGLA! For instance, you may not find any holes abroad named "Valley," "Shinnecock," "Sebonac," "Narrows," "Peconic."    

[Jim_Kennedy]

Paul Cowley did invent the "Curves of Charm" ...............we can line the whole thing out on the ground where his novel and original idea first occured to him. Can't get much more historically accurate and FACT-based than that my little Architectural Munchkins!

That wasn't what my post was about, we were talking Capes. I figured that if Paul felt the need to remind us of his discovery then he might as well take responsibility for the Cape, too. After all, if he's one of the few, if not the only, architects to have ever found or used anything in a new configuration then we should just give him credit for all of it, from time immemorial to now.  (Two smileys so no one thinks I'm trying to upset them)     

[TEPaul]

No smileys are necessary, at least not on my account. I've been aware for some time now that you and your posts have a novel way of taking what someone says and trying to extrapolate it far beyond what they either said or meant. A few on here have become quite good at telling others they know better what some meant than the people who said it in the first place. It's quite the talent if one really thinks about it! 

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