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Phil_the_Author

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2009, 04:10:38 PM »
As I have always been under the impression that the Cape at NGLA was based upon the Cape hole at Westward Ho. So when they
wrote that "there is probably not another like it anywhere" they certainly didn't mean that the concept hadn't already been done, just that THEIR concept hadn't. What was their differing concept?

"The fourteenth hole at the National Golf Links is called the Cape hole, because the green extends out into the sea with which it is surrounded on three sides..."

It is this particular feature of their Cape design of the green extending out into the water that was unique and that there was not another like it anywhere for that reason.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2009, 04:14:31 PM »
If CB and Whigham aren't to be believed when they wrote that  there was .... "probably not another like it anywhere",  who the heck came up with it?

Jim,  A very good question.   In my opinion, Phil's post above denying credit to Macdonald and Whigham for the hole is what we see all too often around here.   Because Phil has a proprietary interest in Tillie he apparently feels like he must not acknowledge that anyone else (except for Old Tom himself perhaps) ever did anything all that original in golf design.  

So far as I know, the Cape at NGLA was considered an original.   Whigham seemed to have a good familiarity with just about every course on every continent, but an especially in-depth knowledge of the courses in Great Britain, so I find it unlikely if he wouldn't have been familiar with Westward Ho, yet Whigham thought Macdonald's Cape at NGLA to be original.  

Yet Phillip would rather assume that Tillie must have seen a cape hole elsewhere and before he saw or read of NGLA, and that this must have been his influence and it could not have been what was at the time the most famoust hole in America.  While I generally avoid emoticons, this deserves at least an  ::).  

Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt that a similar strategy might have existed somewhere, but no one ever pointed it out if it did.  Plus, the American original and the one called the "CAPE" was at NGLA.   Surely not even Phillip will deny that it was CBM and/or HJW who came up with the NAME at least.  

_____________________________________________________

David,

"I don't know where you got this idea that Tillie's concept of the Cape as a Par 4 was original or even his alone.  It was not.   That is all I am saying."

Please understand, I never said that Tilly's concept of a Cape hole was unique to him or was original. All I said was that he defined it in a certain fashion. As I hope you already see from my apology of my misunderstanding, I was simply trying to give a view of the hole type from what I mistakenly thought was another perspective.

Understood.  Thanks for clarifying.

Quote
You also stated, "I too like the way he (and the others) described the differences between Elbow and Dog Leg holes.  I think that what we now call a "Cape" they would have simply called a "dog leg" where one can cut the corner and has an option of how much to cut off."

This is not the view that Tilly would have had. He had a clear distinction of how and where the fairway would turn on these three different hole types. The "Elbow" would turn either without a hazard or with one that most players could carry with a "courageous shot" as Tilly put it, whereas the dog-leg turns around a hazard that it would be "impossible to carry over."

My mistake but one of semantics.  For some reason I often flip flop the way that both Flynn and Tillie used the term "dogleg" and "elbow."

Quote
The Cape was distinct in that the fairway corner was always "formed close by the green itself." Therefor in his version it wasn't one of how much of a corner one could cut off as it was the angle of the shot that MUST carry onto the green.


I think you have again misunderstood me.  I was probably unclear again.   I wrote the way we currently view the term "Cape."  I switched from speaking of the way the term was once used, to the way we currently use it -- to connote a diagonal over which we can choose to cut off as much as we want.  

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2009, 04:16:02 PM »
As I have always been under the impression that the Cape at NGLA was based upon the Cape hole at Westward Ho. So when they
wrote that "there is probably not another like it anywhere" they certainly didn't mean that the concept hadn't already been done, just that THEIR concept hadn't. What was their differing concept?

"The fourteenth hole at the National Golf Links is called the Cape hole, because the green extends out into the sea with which it is surrounded on three sides..."

It is this particular feature of their Cape design of the green extending out into the water that was unique and that there was not another like it anywhere for that reason.

I don't recall ever reading that their hole was based upon anything at Westward Ho or anywhere else.  I have read that it was an original concept.    Where have you ever seen the reference to Westward Ho?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Phil_the_Author

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #53 on: October 26, 2009, 04:20:48 PM »
David,

I couldn't possibly tell you where I heard, read or got the idea from that the Westward Ho Cape was the type that they modelled the NGLA Cape after. Just as Tom Mac alluded to that earlier in this thread (and yes I did see where he then took that point back) I, too, have always been under that impression, most probably because of the concept that the NGLA was designed based upon the great hole types of the world...

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #54 on: October 26, 2009, 04:24:11 PM »
I mistakenly thought the hole was loosely based on the Cape at Westward Ho!, but then I went back and read Macdonald, Whigham and other's comments and there was never a mention of WH, in fact they all said the hole was an original concept. Which makes sense based on the fact it bears absolutely no resemblance to the hole at North Devon.

Phil
Are you familar with the Cape at Westward Ho!?

TEPaul

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #55 on: October 26, 2009, 04:25:23 PM »
"Because Phil has a proprietary interest in Tillie he apparently feels like he must not acknowledge that anyone else (except for Old Tom himself perhaps) ever did anything all that original in golf design."


THAT is most definitely NOT what I've noticed Phil Young said on this thread or any other! Matter of fact, not even close. But that sure is the kind of diversionary and apparently potentially argumentative interpretation we really do see all too often on this website. Fortunately, most who follow these threads are pretty well aware, at this point, where and from whom those kinds of interpretations and remarks come from.  ???

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2009, 04:27:13 PM »
Phil,
If it's as you say, ..."It is this particular feature of their Cape design of the green extending out into the water that was unique and that there was not another like it anywhere for that reason", then that would seem to lend some credence to the idea that Tillinghast recognized the concept from NGLA and defined it for his own use, just as he came up with the his own definitions of dogleg and elbow.


Tom,

If you go to the photo and zoom in (400 power makes it really clear) you'll see the same bunker schemes on the model and on the ground.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 04:32:16 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #57 on: October 26, 2009, 04:38:34 PM »
Jim Kennedy:

What makes you think that Tillinghast may not have come up with some of these concepts (or terms) on his own and perhaps even without any influence at all from anything to do with previous golf course architecture? Afterall a "cape" is a pretty well known word used in a ton of other applications than just golf architecture.

If we could find examples of others using the term "cape" to describe holes or architectural concepts and principals before Tillinghast ever did that might then fairly scotch that thought. The same may be said for his use of the term "dog-leg" even if I seriously doubt he was the first to use that term. His use of the term "elbow" interests me more, however. I'm not aware of any common use of that term in architecture before Tillinghast used it and as we know he was quite the coigner of terms for architectural concepts in his career----viz his term "Cart before the Horse" hole and concept which even he admitted might be a bit controversial in play!  ;)

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #58 on: October 26, 2009, 04:58:34 PM »
I don't think it would scotch it at all Tom as AWT's idea of a Cape and CBM's idea of a Cape are basically the same stratagem.

AWT wrote about it 7 or 8 years after it had been put on the ground by CBM. AWT wasn't living on another planet and as Phil acknowledged, CBM and AWT had friendly discussions about architecture. Maybe he was taking a friendly swipe at CBM by offering up his own definition. 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #59 on: October 26, 2009, 05:10:49 PM »
JimK:


All true (to some degree) I'm sure. Another logical answer just might be that those guys just never looked at who influenced whom and from where anything like some of us do or try to do today.

I realize the entire subject of "influence" in the entire subject of golf course architecture is a most tempting one as ultimately it sort of leads to what some call "architectural family trees" but my sense is that even with that the real and accurate history of it all just may be quite a bit more amorphous than something that pat!  ;)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #60 on: October 26, 2009, 05:31:17 PM »
Jim Kennedy:

What makes you think that Tillinghast may not have come up with some of these concepts (or terms) on his own and perhaps even without any influence at all from anything to do with previous golf course architecture? Afterall a "cape" is a pretty well known word used in a ton of other applications than just golf architecture.

If we could find examples of others using the term "cape" to describe holes or architectural concepts and principals before Tillinghast ever did that might then fairly scotch that thought. The same may be said for his use of the term "dog-leg" even if I seriously doubt he was the first to use that term. His use of the term "elbow" interests me more, however. I'm not aware of any common use of that term in architecture before Tillinghast used it and as we know he was quite the coigner of terms for architectural concepts in his career----viz his term "Cart before the Horse" hole and concept which even he admitted might be a bit controversial in play!  ;)

Jim,   You see how it works?  

Never mind that CBM's Cape Hole was being written about as early as 1906 and in detail in 1909, 1910, 1911, 1912, 1914, etc. . .  never mind that Tillinghast was very well informed of everything going on in golf, was a golf writer himself and even editor of a golf magazine.   He probably never even heard of Macdonald's Cape hole . . . surely he could have just missed all the articles and references and the holes' fame and accolade, and come up with both the concept hole and name all by himself!      

What a joke.   That is what goes on here.  People get so caught up in their own guys they refuse to be reasonable about anyone else.   Of course TEPaul is not concerned about Tillie so much . . . his stake in this is to pretend (as he and Wayne have in tne past and likely do in their book) that Flynn cape hole was his original concept and creation and also that the "so called cape type hole" at Merion had nothing whatsoever ever to do with a Macdonald lineage.  

That is why these conversations get pointless.  No one just wants to figure it out, everyone wants to advocate for his own guy, even if it means tearing down others (as TEPaul and Wayne have done repeatedly.)
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #61 on: October 26, 2009, 05:32:40 PM »
Tom,
I don't. There were not more than a couple handfuls of these guys and they all seemed to travel around on the same circuits, relatively speaking. I feel that they all had a certain influence on each other, but with a definite pecking order. For instance, a man like Wilson would surely have his own ideas, but he would more likely be swayed by men like Tillinghast and Macdonald than vice versa. A man like Crump definitely had his own plan, but he surely liked the idea of input form his buddies, the architects.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #62 on: October 26, 2009, 05:36:23 PM »
This one has always confused me to be honest. I’ve read or heard so many people refer to a cape hole as one which involves a diagonal carry from the tee, however I always thought that its should be a hole with a green sticking out into a lake? Afterall the definition of the word cape is “A point or head of land projecting into a body of water.” However a quick Google search found this…
http://golf.about.com/od/golfterms/g/bldef_capehole.htm

It is only now on reading The Evangelist of Golf that I realise why there is this confusion. As I’m sure most of you will know, the original 14th at NGLA, known as the Cape hole, did have a green that jutted out into Sebonak Creek, but this was replaced by one inland when a new road to the clubhouse was built. However, the diagonal carry from the tee remains, and so it is this characteristic that has taken over as the definition of a Cape hole. Funny thing is, though I’ve not played NGLA, from the aerial photos, the diagonal carry doesn’t actually look that pronounced, though Philip's recent pictures show it to be quite pronounced?

Etymology is a funny old thing, and the definition of words does change from time to time. But for me, it’s the old definition of a green jutting out into a water hazard that should be the true definition? What does everyone think?


I think you have to amend your definition to incorporate the feature of "how much can you bite off on the tee shot in attempting to get as close to the green as possible as you skirt the hazard"

Many clubs name their holes for their general qualities or unique circumstances.

With these names one must give the hole "latitude" and not limit or constrict the name of the hole to a very specific or singular architectural configuration or definition.

The "Cape" hole at Fishers Island differs dramatically from the "Cape" hole at NGLA



Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #63 on: October 26, 2009, 05:38:15 PM »
...........so it's easy for me to imagine the Titans taunting one another, like AWT co-opting CBM's stratagem for the Cape and defining it as his own.

Or CBM doing something similar to AWT. 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #64 on: October 26, 2009, 06:16:24 PM »
"What a joke.   That is what goes on here.  People get so caught up in their own guys they refuse to be reasonable about anyone else.   Of course TEPaul is not concerned about Tillie so much . . . his stake in this is to pretend (as he and Wayne have in tne past and likely do in their book) that Flynn cape hole was his original concept and creation and also that the "so called cape type hole" at Merion had nothing whatsoever ever to do with a Macdonald lineage.  

That is why these conversations get pointless.  No one just wants to figure it out, everyone wants to advocate for his own guy, even if it means tearing down others (as TEPaul and Wayne have done repeatedly.)"


Moriarty:

First of all, neither Wayne Morrison nor I ever said what you just ascribed to us above---and that is part and parcel of the ongoing problem you have on this website and a growing number of people on here have with you.

I have no idea where in the hell Flynn came up with the idea for the design of Merion's present 10th hole (or even if it was Flynn who came up with it). I suppose I can guess if someone made me but I don't really see the point in that. All Wayne and I ever did is disagree with your assumption (or was it a conclusion?) that the influence for that particular hole must have been from Macdonald/Whigam.

And please don't talk to any of us about getting caught up with what you call "our guy" or "our guys" as it sure is patently clear that you seem to think practically everything in American architecture is somehow influenced by or attributable to C.B. Macdonald. You've even gone so far as to accuse me of roundly disrespecting or minimizing Macdonald on here while the truth is I grew up with and around more Macdonald architecture than you will probably ever know and I grew up with it before you were probably even born. I love Macdonald architecture for that reason among others. Perhaps you are getting my opinion of Macdonald mixed up with Wayne Morrison's as I wouldn't really expect someone like you to even realize there might be some distinction between the two of us!
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 06:23:29 PM by TEPaul »

Phil_the_Author

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #65 on: October 26, 2009, 06:24:47 PM »
David,

You are simply taking things way too far.

I am NOT, as you claim, "In my opinion, Phil's post above denying credit to Macdonald and Whigham for the hole is what we see all too often around here..." denying Macdonald and Whigham any credit at all for this hole. Just the opposite.

It certainly was M&W who wrote that the NGLA was to be a course with holes that would be designed on the basis of the great holes of the world. In fact weren't they the authors of the entire series of descriptive articles published in Golf Illustrated beginning in May 1914? Isn't the first sentence of the first article, "This is the first in a series of representative American golf holes to be a monthly feature of this magazine..."

Of WHAT are they REPRESENTATIVE of? Each article in the series leading up to the "Cape Hole" mentions the specific hole in the UK that it was based upon. The Cape article does not, but that doesn't mean that a reader of the day, and today for that matter, wouldn't think that it wasn't based upon the Cape Hole at Westward Ho, and yes, "Philip WIKLL DENY that they came up with the name" as Westward Ho and its Cape Hole were in existence and called such BEFORE NGLA was even thought of as a concept!

That neither lessens the greatne4ss of the hole nor does it challenge M&W's concept as being original and new in any way, shape or form, for as I have already posted, that they extended the green complex out onto a peninsula off from the fairway and into the sea WAS NEW & ORIGINAL and I stated so.

You are certainly entitled to your belief that, "Phil has a proprietary interest in Tillie he apparently feels like he must not acknowledge that anyone else (except for Old Tom himself perhaps) ever did anything all that original in golf design..." but this belief is foolish, stupid and just plain wrong.   

You stated, "So far as I know, the Cape at NGLA was considered an original." The problem with that is that you are stating as fact something based ONLY upon your knowledge. That I would state that "As far as I know all the holes at NGLA were based upon the great holes from the UK" has just as good a standing as a supposition as does yours. In fact, it may have even more so since it is based upon CBM's OWN WORDS recorded in his 1911 "National Golf Links of America: Statement of Charles Blair Macdonald" wherein he writes to the members of the club on p. 12 par. 1, "Dear Sirs, Some six years ago the idea was formulated of establishing a classic golf course in America, one which would be designed after and eventually could be favorably compared with the championship links abroad..."

"Designed after... the championship links abroad..." So why wouldn't someone believe that the "Cape" hole was therefore "designed after" the Cape hole at Westward Ho in North Devon?

"Whigham seemed to have a good familiarity with just about every course on every continent, but an especially in-depth knowledge of the courses in Great Britain, so I find it unlikely if he wouldn't have been familiar with Westward Ho, yet Whigham thought Macdonald's Cape at NGLA to be original." I, too, believe it to be an original and EVEN STATED SUCH, in how it took the concept of the hole and created something new and exciting out of it.   

"Yet Phillip would rather assume that Tillie must have seen a cape hole elsewhere and before he saw or read of NGLA, and that this must have been his influence and it could not have been what was at the time the most famous hole in America..." Once again you twist my words. I have a strong disagreement with Tom Mac as to whether or not CBM was a MAJOR INFLUENCE in forming Tilly's design philosophy.

It was TOM who stated, "The Cape concept comes from a hole at Royal North Devon. To my knowledge Tilly never visited Westward Ho! so presumably his version of the hole was based upon his exposure Macdonald's concept." It was THAT statement of fact based upon his LIMITED "To my knowledge Tilly never visited Westward Ho" that I took exception to. Once again both you & Tom claim as fact things that are simply based upon your "knowledge" yet if someone else makes a similar statement they are by definition attacking the truth and doing it because of their "vested interests." Absurd!

Yet after all that you don't have even the courage of your convictions to stand upon when you state, "I don't doubt that a similar strategy might have existed somewhere, but no one ever pointed it out if it did."

Sorry David, but you lose credibility in your criticism of me when I state that the concept might have been copied from elsewhere because it hadn't been done before according to Whigham and then state that you actually BELIEVE that it "EXISTED SOMEWHERE" already without a "DOUBT"! The height of hypocrisy!

You are wrong in your beliefs about my motivation and reasoning.

TEPaul

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #66 on: October 26, 2009, 06:30:26 PM »
"...........so it's easy for me to imagine the Titans taunting one another, like AWT co-opting CBM's stratagem for the Cape and defining it as his own."


JimK:

Frankly, to me and from what I've read the one who seemed to or tended to co-opt ideas in architecture as originally his own or just lay claim to them as such appears to be Alister MacKenzie. I have no real idea about the truth of any of it but from where I sit some of his clearly original ideas on architecture or as applied to it by him were some of the most original and significant ever conceived of.

TEPaul

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #67 on: October 26, 2009, 06:44:33 PM »
"Tom,
I don't. There were not more than a couple handfuls of these guys and they all seemed to travel around on the same circuits, relatively speaking. I feel that they all had a certain influence on each other, but with a definite pecking order. For instance, a man like Wilson would surely have his own ideas, but he would more likely be swayed by men like Tillinghast and Macdonald than vice versa. A man like Crump definitely had his own plan, but he surely liked the idea of input form his buddies, the architects."


JimK:

I hear what you're saying above and perhaps the whole thing is a bit like trying to put a thousand angels on the head of a pin and trying to figure out who the hell led them or really influenced them all somehow.

Again, I think this kind of subject is tempting to discuss for a lot of reasons but I really am with a guy like Doak who I think has said it best on here----eg the whole thing is sort of like an untrackable melting pot (of ideas, opinions, suggestions etc) in the final analysis. I have always said that the best way for any of the contributors and discussants on here to come to truly understand this and the way it has pretty much always been is to just get out there and take as much time as necessary (days, weeks, months) to watch it happen in the field with some or most architects and their support crews and consultants. That certainly was an eyeopener and education for me and the confirming news is I've done that with a number of architects over the years and it all works pretty much the same way.

Some of the guys on here are just going to have to have these kinds of experiences if they ever want to understand this and stop the petty arguments on here which this thread seems to be become another of a long list of them and of course interestingly waylaid in this way by the very same less than handful of contributors. 

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2009, 06:47:13 PM »
Here are Tilly's own words on the subject. It seems clear to me that Tilly associated the concept with CBM, and not Westward Ho!

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1919/gi111s.pdf

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2009, 07:18:13 PM »
The article has a more full description of the differences between Doglegs and Elbows. It seems that AWT is saying here that a dogleg can't be reached from the tee, but the elbow hole can be carried. That appears to somewhat different than what he wrote in his pamphlet.
He does associate CB with the Cape, and whether or not that's any kind of conclusive evidence it surely makes a good case that AWT knew who thunk it up and where it was placed on the ground.



TEP,
It may be untrackable for the most part, but when evidence starts to unfold showing that one man 'got' an idea from another it helps everyone in their understanding of the continuum of ideas.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2009, 07:54:02 PM »
"TEP,
It may be untrackable for the most part, but when evidence starts to unfold showing that one man 'got' an idea from another it helps everyone in their understanding of the continuum of ideas."


JimK:

When the evidence starts to unfold showing that one man "got" an idea from another?

What evidence is that? If you don't want to take my opinion for the way these things generally happen perhaps you'd prefer to take someone's opinion like Doak. Failing that I don't see any particular reason to assume that one architect "got" some idea from someone else unless and until THAT architect actually said or wrote so himself. Do you? ;)

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2009, 08:22:07 PM »
It's pretty simple Tom, read the article TMac posted, look at the timeline of AWT's explanation of what makes a Cape hole, and even you should be able to concede that CBM's concept was what got AWT thinking.

If you don't you can use your brush to start a self-portrait. 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Phil_the_Author

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #72 on: October 26, 2009, 09:19:11 PM »
Tom,

Thank you for posting that article of Tilly's. It is one that I had forgotten about. I do believe that you and Jim are both reading more into it than what is there. Yes, he mentions CBM as having several holes which "are fine examples of this feature" but he also mentions his own at Shawnee, the 7th, as being a "famous" Cape hole.

I've already been berated for even suggesting that Tilly's "Cape" hole versions had differences from others, especially M&W's as their definition places the cape as being surrounded by water, but here is an example of that proves the very point of being decidedly different. This hole was designed in 1909, about the same time that NGLA was being built. It was NOT a par-4 but a 522-yard par-5; an obvious difference that shows that his design was contemporaneous to M&W's and not a copy... Point of FACT is that that Tilly's course was open to the public in May 1911, and even though there was some play at NGLA, it wasn't officially open for play until later that year in September.

Jim, you suggested to Tom P that he should, "read the article TMac posted, look at the timeline of AWT's explanation of what makes a Cape hole, and even you should be able to concede that CBM's concept was what got AWT thinking." Actually by reading it the exact OPPOSITE conclusion must be drawn. There is absolutely no record of Tilly being at NGLA before it opened in 1911 and his design at Shawnee was two years old and being constructed at that time.

It is also interesting that he also stated that this "type" of holes is "encountered often." Tilly also didn't credit M&W as being the originators of the concept, though that really means nothing, yet he also doesn't say anything about any of the often encountered other versions of this hole type as owing their concept to M&W either.  I am curious as to where these other cape-type holes had already been built.

Jim, finally, your conclusion that, "The article has a more full description of the differences between Doglegs and Elbows. It seems that AWT is saying here that a dogleg can't be reached from the tee, but the elbow hole can be carried. That appears to somewhat different than what he wrote in his pamphlet..." is incorrect. That is EXACTLY what he wrote in his 1917 booklet...

Phil_the_Author

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #73 on: October 26, 2009, 09:28:23 PM »
Jim,

To help clear up exactly what Tilly wrote in his booklet, here is a copy of the two-page cenjter portion which contained these definitions:


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #74 on: October 26, 2009, 09:37:39 PM »
Phillip, 
You begin your rant at me above by quoting a comment I made to Jim before you had realized you had completely ignored my post and misunderstood how CBM and others understood the hole, and at the time of my post you were making some pretty bizarre claims about the originality of Tillie's ideas on the Cape (that Tillie had come up with the par 4 cape) and were being pretty stubborn about it.  You should read my comments to Jim in that context.   And it that context, you were crediting Tillie with far more than he actually did. You've since corrected that, but at the time my comments were appropriate.

Quote
Of WHAT are they REPRESENTATIVE of? Each article in the series leading up to the "Cape Hole" mentions the specific hole in the UK that it was based upon.

This is just plain silly.   They were representative of American Golf Holes.  Are you kidding me here?

Everything I have ever read about the Cape Hole, from 1906 on, indicates that it was an ORIGINAL CONCEPT.   I recall no mention of a hole at Westward Ho, and suspect it had nothing to do with the hole (or name) at  NGLA.   

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You stated, "So far as I know, the Cape at NGLA was considered an original." The problem with that is that you are stating as fact something based ONLY upon your knowledge. That I would state that "As far as I know all the holes at NGLA were based upon the great holes from the UK" has just as good a standing as a supposition as does yours. In fact, it may have even more so since it is based upon CBM's OWN WORDS recorded in his 1911 "National Golf Links of America: Statement of Charles Blair Macdonald" wherein he writes to the members of the club on p. 12 par. 1, "Dear Sirs, Some six years ago the idea was formulated of establishing a classic golf course in America, one which would be designed after and eventually could be favorably compared with the championship links abroad..."

Come on Phillip.  "As far as I know" includes multiple accounts of the formation of NGLA incluiding multiple firsthand accounts by CBM and HJW, and accounts but some of the leading writers of the time on both sides of the ocean including Darwin and Hutchinson.   In every account that addressed it, the Cape is described as being a wholly original concept and not based on any other hole.  So it is not as if I am making it up.  Given that you have no conflicting  information, I think your point is pointless.

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"Designed after... the championship links abroad..." So why wouldn't someone believe that the "Cape" hole was therefore "designed after" the Cape hole at Westward Ho in North Devon?


Because virtually every time the hole comes up there is a discussion about how the hole concept was original to Macdonald, and not based upon any other hole.

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"Whigham seemed to have a good familiarity with just about every course on every continent, but an especially in-depth knowledge of the courses in Great Britain, so I find it unlikely if he wouldn't have been familiar with Westward Ho, yet Whigham thought Macdonald's Cape at NGLA to be original." I, too, believe it to be an original and EVEN STATED SUCH, in how it took the concept of the hole and created something new and exciting out of it.   

"Yet Phillip would rather assume that Tillie must have seen a cape hole elsewhere and before he saw or read of NGLA, and that this must have been his influence and it could not have been what was at the time the most famous hole in America..." Once again you twist my words. I have a strong disagreement with Tom Mac as to whether or not CBM was a MAJOR INFLUENCE in forming Tilly's design philosophy.

It was TOM who stated, "The Cape concept comes from a hole at Royal North Devon. To my knowledge Tilly never visited Westward Ho! so presumably his version of the hole was based upon his exposure Macdonald's concept." It was THAT statement of fact based upon his LIMITED "To my knowledge Tilly never visited Westward Ho" that I took exception to. Once again both you & Tom claim as fact things that are simply based upon your "knowledge" yet if someone else makes a similar statement they are by definition attacking the truth and doing it because of their "vested interests." Absurd!

Tom had recanted his statement before you went off on Tillie perhaps seeing the hole at North Devon.  It is not my fault that you did not read his post.  I cannot read your mind and know what you bother to read and didn't, and it makes little sense for you to scold me about an understanding that I gained from your innaccurate comments based upon your failure to read what came before.

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Yet after all that you don't have even the courage of your convictions to stand upon when you state, "I don't doubt that a similar strategy might have existed somewhere, but no one ever pointed it out if it did."

Sorry David, but you lose credibility in your criticism of me when I state that the concept might have been copied from elsewhere because it hadn't been done before according to Whigham and then state that you actually BELIEVE that it "EXISTED SOMEWHERE" already without a "DOUBT"! The height of hypocrisy!

Frankly, Phillip, it is statements like these that make me wonder if sometimes you don't become a bit too emotional in these discussions, especially about all things Tillie.   

I wrote that I "did not doubt" that a hole with similar concepts "MIGHT have existed somewhere," but that "no one ever pointed it out IF it did.   This was my polite way of saying that your theory is all wet.   There is no evidence of any such hole much less evidence that it was the basis for CBM's cape or any other such Cape.   That is why I used words like MIGHT exist and IF it exists.   I can think of no way to make a positive any less negative than by intentionally using the double negative "I don't doubt that the something similar might exist somewhere."    After all I am not familiar with every hole ever in existence so I can't rlghtly claim no such hole ever existed, can I?    But I do make clear that if any such hole ever existed nothing was ever mentioned of it BY ANYONE.   

Yet incredibly you claim I wrote that the hole existed "without a 'DOUBT'"??  AND THEN YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO CALL ME A HYPOCRITE FOR SUPPOSEDLY WRITING WORDS I NEVER WROTE, WORDS THAT YOU HAVE TO TWIST BEYOND RECOGNITION TO FIT THEM IN MY MOUTH??

Really Phillip, it is too much.  You are behaving like TEPaul.  I understood why you might have been offended by my comment above about you having a proprietary interest in Tillie (even if, frankly, it is quite obvious to all of us who regularly read your posts) but this last bit is only cementing that impression.

The Facts Are:
-  According to all accounts of which I am aware (that is to say all the accounts of which anyone is aware, except perhaps George, Tom, Jim Urbina few others are aware here)  the CAPE CONCEPT WAS A CBM ORIGINAL CONCEPT AND WAS NOT BASED ON ANY HOLE ABROAD.
- CBM'S Cape concept for NGLA predated any other cape concept in America.
- CBM's Cape concept for NGLA was widely publicized from 1906 on, and may have been THE MOST FAMOUS HOLE IN AMERICA AT THE TIME.
- It is impossible to imagine that any of those who came after were unfamiliar with CBM's cape hole, at least in name, reputation, and description.
- The notion that any of those who came after somehow had somehow had their own independent epiphanies regarding the matter is beyond the bounds of reasonableness, as is the notion that they discovered an unmentioned hole somewhere that shaped their ideas before they became aware of CBM's hole. 

So the notion that these holes might have suddenly and spontaneously sprouted up of independent lineage and entomology is downright absurd. 

Take TEPaul's absurd suggestion above that Wilson's cape hole Merion's was entirely unrelated to NGLA's.   It is not as if Wilson was unfamiliar with the concept at NGLA long before he designed the new hole at Merion!   

(As an aside, both TEPaul and Wayne have in the past suggested that the 10th was Flynn's design.  Every source I have seen describes it a a hole by Wilson,  and they have never produced a thing publicy that says differently, except of course for Wayne's absurd theory that if Flynn ever drafted a plan then he must have been the designer. )
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While I am being frank, I am a bit surprised by your lack of understanding of CBM's and others approach to the Cape hole.   It is one thing to be an expert on Tillie, but quite another understand Tillie in the context of the times.  It can't be all Tillie all the time or your view will necessarily be skewed, as it was with the Cape hole.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

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