[Carl Rogers]

except many or most on this web site and Mr. Nicklaus.

With all the moaning and groaning about the ball here, what percentage of the golfing public or the golf industry really cares one way or another?

Please allow me to make myself clear ... I am with many of you that have the opinion that it is a real tragedy and travesty that all of the classic courses are now irrelevant.

[Padraig Dooley]

Please allow me to make myself clear ... I am with many of you that have the opinion that it is a real tragedy and travesty that all of the classic courses are now irrelevant.

Carl, that is some statement to make that all!!! of the classic courses are now irrelevant.

Irrelevant to who? They are very relevant to everybody who posts here.

[Mac Plumart]

I struggle with this issue.  Are the classic courses irrelevant?  Or are the simply not ideal to host pro golf tournaments or top notch amateur tournaments?  Most of the classic courses are private clubs, right?  And don't most of the members who play those courses love them?  If this is correct, they aren't irrelevant...right?  

How about that...6 sentences, 5 questions!

[Carl Rogers]

Mr. Pluamart & Mr. Dooley,

Please excuse me, a bit overstated and mistated  ... I should have said irrelevent to golf at its highest level ... not to middle age fellows like myself or the women's game.

But the question still is only a very very tiny minority of the golfing public really cares?!

[Mac Plumart]

I agree with you...but I think others on this site and other might not.

I played Inverness earlier this year...classic course supposedly too short for a men's major and I LOVED IT!!!!

I played the Country Club of Columbus (original Ross course, rennovated by Arthur Hills' Drew Rogers) this year as well...6,500 yards from the tips and I LOVED IT!!!!

Technology hasn't made these courses irrelevent to my 11.1 handicap index 250 yard drives game.

[Padraig Dooley]

Mr. Pluamart & Mr. Dooley,

Please excuse me, a bit overstated and mistated  ... I should have said irrelevent to golf at its highest level ... not to middle age fellows like myself or the women's game.

But the question still is only a very very tiny minority of the golfing public really cares?!

Carl golfers in general are only interested in what effects their game. It is found at every course, you'll have a group of guys giving out about a bunker and another group of guys wondering what bunker they're talking about because it doesn't effect their game.

The statement that all classic courses are irrelevant to golf at it's highest level is also overstated. I played a few of them, I'm not the worst player in the world and they're not irrelevant to me.

[Mac Plumart]

Padraig...your comment you are not "the worst player in the world" prompted me to do an internet search on your name.

Yeah...I'd say your not the "worst player in the world".

If I read this right, you qualifed for the 2007 Open at Carnoustie...among other things.

Is that right?  If so,  WOW!!!!!!  I am very, very impressed.  One of my good friends here locally just qualified for the Atlanta Match Play Finals today.  Tomorrow he plays heads up for the title.  And I thought that was awesome.  The Open!!!!  Wow!

Later.

[Jud_T]

Carl,

the problem is that it all trickles down...You pay more in greens fees, membership dues, time on the course, etc....

[Brent Hutto]

Cypress Point Club will never host a US Open. I'm absolutely certain of it.

Does that make CPC irrelevant?

Does it mean that unless the ball is rolled back CPC will be forced to add 500 yards?

Not hardly.

[Padraig Dooley]

Padraig...your comment you are not "the worst player in the world" prompted me to do an internet search on your name.

Yeah...I'd say your not the "worst player in the world".

If I read this right, you qualifed for the 2007 Open at Carnoustie...among other things.

Is that right?  If so,  WOW!!!!!!  I am very, very impressed.  One of my good friends here locally just qualified for the Atlanta Match Play Finals today.  Tomorrow he plays heads up for the title.  And I thought that was awesome.  The Open!!!!  Wow!

Later.

I'm afraid Mac I didn't qualify for the Open in Carnoustie but I have played plenty of events at a high level.

To use Brent's example, I played Cypress a few times and it definitely far from irrelevant.

[Mac Plumart]

Padraig...

I'm sorry, I mis-read.  This article said that you advanced from the regional qualifier at Royal Dublin to the final qualifying round before the Open.  And you were on the Irish Golf Team and another shows you were tied with Trevor Immelmen after the first round in the South African Open...I could go on and on.  Still, that is damn good stuff.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Who cares?... interesting question...

I think the general golfing public, including cart ballers, joe 6 pack, and most who belong to private clubs WOULD care. I think they would be pretty pissed actually if they reduced the length their ball travels. You just made a hard game harder. Also I think you take away a lot of the excitement that hitting a big drive creates... remember most golfers NEVER break 100, they swing as hard as they can every time they tee it up. Some times the best memory they have of their entire round is that 1 drive where they finally squared the clubface and smoked one down the middle... when the ball rolls back, I think you are going to lose a lot of the top-flite playing, cart driving, wrong tee playing golfers. Remember most golfers introduction to the game comes at the driving range, where most are trying to drive the ball over the fence.

At the same time... The extreme distance the pros get is killing our classic courses. Shot values are lost, and some of the best courses are trying to change to keep up with them.


I think either the tour needs to roll the ball back so they can continue to play the classic courses, or they need to take their tournaments to courses that can handle the distance, because its not right to ruin classic architecture for the few days when the pros come to town

[noonan]

The ball only travels further because of different construction:
1. The majority of pros played wound balls until the mid 90's
2. Until Precept put a good cover on a sold ball no good golfers played solid balls
3. The Pro V's and other balls get exploited by higher swing speeds

The only golfers who have benefited from the new balls are the ones with high club head speed.

Fit a normal 95 mph driver speed golfer with a launch monitor and he might gain 10 yards.

The classic courses would be relevant to the pros if you made them play a wound high spinning ball again.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Why doesn't the PGA tour look to Nascar again (FedEx cup) and use a spec ball for certain courses, and an "open" ball for the bethpages of the world. This would be similar to the way they use the restricter plate.

PS - I'm no nascar fan, but maybe the rednecks came up with a good idea!

[Tim Bert]

I generally play with conforming equipment for no real good reason. I never have been and never will be a competitive golfer. Let me just say if they ever roll back the ball on a wider scale than the professional game I will proceed to my nearest golf store and buy how ever many balls I think I might need for the next few decades.

I would enjoy the game less if I hit my drives much shorter than I already do. I haven't found a course that is too easy for me yet.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

Well said -- you simply penned what Titleist already knew when it featured it's satirical commercials against the desire to check golf balls such as the ProVI. One other note - the skill level for golfers at the average level has only slightly improved over the last 30 years or so.

Carl:

Consider this before going on and on about such a noble crusade for the nth time that I have seen this on GCA.

The classic courses you are enamored with -- those certain few courses sought to validate themselves by serving in the host role for major events -- PGA Tour events, etc, etc. The clubs that have sought such a higher profile were the first ones to throw their design qualities to the wind in order to land an event tied to their own self importance. One would think that if anyone should know what type of course they have it would be the top people who represent such a club.

Why they need to validate themselves even what they have already works for 99% of the golfing population?

I mean if Merion never got another US Open -- although it will host in '13 -- is the course anything less than what's there now? Clearly, certain folks in the hierarchy felt compelled to alter what was there in order to land the biggest event in goilf in the USA.

Classic old time courses are likely going to face a completely different landscape as we move deeper and deeper into the 21st century. More and more of the events will use public oriented facilities because of the logistical elements such facilities have for these events and because of built-in advantages many of them come with in being aligned so closely to the public taxpayer.

Gents:

Titleist was very smart a few years back with the John Gleese commercials that poked fun at the distance situation. Joe Sixpack doesn't want his ball lessened -- he wants and for many -- needs even more distance. I certainly agree with what Jerry mentioned that those who swing the club fast likely gained the most yards with the new type balls we see today.

But, I see the inclusion of the new groove rule as being a step that makes perfect sense in minimizing to some degree the issue that length can play. Reduced spin -- especially from rough areas -- will make accuracy a bit more of a premium in order to score well.

Guys, the answer would be to have a split game with different balls on the Tour and those by the everyday player. That won't happen for a host of reasons -- the Joe Sixpacks of the world want to play what the Tour players play. The ball companies want to link what happens at the Tour level and let it filter down to the lowest levels to generate additional sales $$ for their overall bottom lines. The USGA is also not interested in having a split version of the rules as tied to what is proper in the equipment area.

Here's the reality -- if anyone bothers to check the last few years the distance gains have already spiked. The real surge in distance gains came after such balls like the ProVI were brought into the market. Let me also point out that mega-sized titanium clubheads, increased shaft lengths and the overall training / skills of the elite players also played a role too.

[TEPaul]

Tim Bert:

Don't you worry about hitting the ball a lot shorter if the USGA/R&A actually do try to enact a distance rollback. If they do I think they will do it only if they are fairly convinced that it really won't have much effect at all on swing speeds lower than about 100-105 (and on up). This I&B science and the physics of what happened in the last 10-15 years is sort of weird to most but I think it has become pretty obvious to those who really understand the science as well as what-all to do to put back the distance differential it really did effect along the swing speed continuum in the last 10-15 years.

Personally, I really think they are going to do it somehow but so quietly that most golfers won't even notice. The only ones who probably will are those high swing speed players who are definitely not in the majority by a long shot even if they are the most visible golfers to most of us because those are the ones who are most skilled with the highest swing speeds in golf.  

And even amongst those highly skilled high swing speed players (such as the tour pros) I think there has been and continues to be a growing contingent that's for it.

[Garland Bayley]

At least 33 PGA Tour pros and other golf influential people care.

Geoff Shackelford keeps a list.

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/the-list/

[Garland Bayley]

I generally play with conforming equipment for no real good reason. I never have been and never will be a competitive golfer. Let me just say if they ever roll back the ball on a wider scale than the professional game I will proceed to my nearest golf store and buy how ever many balls I think I might need for the next few decades.

I would enjoy the game less if I hit my drives much shorter than I already do. I haven't found a course that is too easy for me yet.

Tim,

You seem to indicate you hit the ball pretty short. What is your swing speed? The below data shows that if your swing speed is below 90 mph with the driver, you could benefit from a roll back to the old high spinning ball.

Low spin ball - actual data from a modern tour ball from Golf Magazine
http://www.golf.com/golf/equipment/article/0,28136,1878631,00.html
Swing speed  80   100    120
Spin rate     2000 2200 2500
Distance from http://probablegolfinstruction.com/PGI%20Newsletter/news05-02-04.htm
                   182   247   306


I doubt anyone has data from Tour Balata that I can find so make some spin rate data up for demonstration purposes, hypothetical ball
Swing speed  80    100     120
Spin Rate     3600  3900  4200
Distance from http://probablegolfinstruction.com/PGI%20Newsletter/news05-02-04.htm
                   187    248    297

[Tim Bert]

Garland

I'm not remarkably short of the tee. I am comfortable with how far I hit the ball; I just don't want to bit it any shorter.  My normal tee ball in the summer pushes 250 in the summe and settles in around 230 when i am not playing regularly or when it is cold. If I really get a hold of one on a good day I hit it 265. This all assumes normal elevation no wind etc. 

My swing speed is probably above 90 but below 100 on the driver. I swing pretty hard but I am just a skinny dude with no muscle to generate power. 140 pounds soaking wet and I am just shy of 6 feet tall.  I am the definition of skin and bones.

[Jon Nolan]

I'm not at all connected like many of you guys.  I play munis and the occasional destination course.  Nothing I play, not one, has been lengthened/adjusted/redesigned to support longer play.  It's just not relevant to my world and probably never will be.

However, I think guys like me can have altruistic interest in the topic.  I'll never play it but it pains me to see what has happened to Augusta.  Every time a classic is ruined (subjective) in defense of that 0.01% of players... I dunno, it's like killing kittens.

[Garland Bayley]

Jon,

You say you play destination courses. How new are they? Do they have 5 or 6 sets of tees stretching them to 7200 yards? Does it take foreever to get around, perhaps because of the added length when practically everyone there could have a good game at 6200 yards?

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