Best Architects

[Mac Plumart]

On my goofy little site, I have a variety of Top 10 lists.  One of those lists is the Top Ten Golf Course Architects of All Time.  Below is my list.  Check it out and the little blurbs I put next to the names and let me know your thoughts.  Should someone be one that isn’t?  Should someone be off who is on?  Etc.  I am wide open to constructive criticism…and I am a former Marine, so I can take any amount of abuse you want to throw my way…just in case you think I have committed a total SNAFU on the list and want to let me know in no uncertain terms.

#1—Mackenzie…With Augusta and Cypress Point under his belt (among quite a few others), I feel pretty confident that the argument for Dr.  Mackenzie to top this list is easy to make.

#2—Ross…Pinehurst #2, Inverness, East Lake, Seminole, etc, etc, etc. are credited to Donald Ross.  With this resume, he certainly has to be among the top 10.  

#3—Colt…Let me know on this one.  I’ve heard that he doesn’t have that one unreal course…like Cypress or Pinehurst #2.  But then I hear a lot about Royal Portrush and that he hired Charles Alison and Mackenzie and he consulted on Pine Valley, etc.  Is ranking him #3 selling him short?

#4—Dye…Say what you will about Pete Dye, but his courses are amazing.  Kiawah Ocean, The Golf Club, the Kohler courses, TPC Sawgrass (say what you will)…I think he is the top “new guy”.  Am I wrong?

#5--MacDonald/Raynor…I ranked them together.  Weak and gutless or good idea as it really makes the list the top eleven and, therefore, makes room for another architect to grace this list?  They both have to be on the list, right?  Chicago, NGLA, Shoreacres, Yale, Camargo.

#6—Tillinghast…Has to be on the list, right?  Bethpage, San Fran, Winged Foot, Baltusrol.  Should he be higher or lower?

#7--Coore/Crenshaw…Sandhills is considered the greatest course built in the modern era by most experts.  Friars Head, Cuscowilla, Old Sandwich, Bandon Trails.  I feel good about having them on the list.

Here starts the controversy..

#8--RT Jones…I am thinking that many people on this site won’t like his work as much as other architects.  But I have him on my list as he ushered in an entire era of golf course architecture and some nuances…perhaps not subtle nuances.  “Make the terrain fit the course”, pinch the fairways with bunkers, target golf, heroic carries.  For these reasons, I feel he’s got to be on the list…but I am wide open to criticism and counter opinions.

#9--Tom Fazio…I know, I know.  A lot of y’all won’t like this name on the list.  But my God, look at his courses all over these top 100 lists.  Golf Digest LOVES this guy and his beautiful and playable courses.  But here is a question that I have…why does Golf Mag and Golfweek like World Woods (Pine Barrens) and Trump National, but Golf Digest seems not to.

#10--Tom Morris…I’ve got him on my list of best architects to simply pay homage to him.  Greens-keeper at St. Andrews, design work at Askernish, Muirfield, Royal County Down, Dornoch, etc.  But am I giving him too much credit as I’ve read that these design projects weren’t nearly as detailed as people do today?  FYI…I’ve paid homage to him in many other spots…he’s #1 on my “Class Acts” and “Most Important People” lists.

With this in mind, I am thinking of pulling off Old Tom and putting on Tom Doak (maybe at the #8 spot ahead of RT Jones)…with Cape Kidnappers, Barnbougle Dunes, Pacific Dunes (all unanimous gems) and now Rock Creek Cattle Company.  Would this be a valid ranking?  Should he be above Coore/Crenshaw?  Tillinghast?  I know he is a member of this site and I hope to get a rational opinion, but I think his work speaks for itself.  As an aside, do you think Rock Creek will get enough panelists to rate it as high as the limited number of Golfweek panelists did who put it on the “Best New Courses” for it to make the actual Top 100 lists.  Mr. Doak…feel free to comment!


And also, a reader of my site told me that Stanley Thompson should be on my list.  Thoughts?

[Ryan Admussen]

one vote for Stanley Thompson

[Ronald Montesano]

1-Ross
2-MacKenzie
3-Dye
4-MacDonald/Raynor
5-Tillinghast
6-Coore/Crenshaw
7-Doak
8-Travis
9-Thompson
10-RTJ

This would be a USA designers list, only.  I am not familiar enough with the ROW to state an opinion.

[Mike_Young]

I would consider Dick Wilson in there somewhere.....

[Anthony Gray]

I would consider Dick Wilson in there somewhere.....

  Is he the man that stayed at Tom Paul's fathers house?


  Anthony

[Mike_Young]

I would consider Dick Wilson in there somewhere.....

  Is he the man that stayed at Tom Paul's fathers house?


  Anthony

How would I know.. do you think I'm a nerd or something.....ask Kyle he is the NICPHILFCT ( nerd in charge of philly facts)

I just thought a list like that needed to have a least one Dick in it....or a Johnson

[Emil Weber]

Bill Coore and Tom Doak need to be waay higher on the list IMO. And I think Dye is a little too high. And RT Jones could be off the list.
 

[David Stamm]

RTJ, Fazio and Dye need to be replaced by Maxwell, Thomas and Flynn.

[Jim Colton]

If you came up with a numbers-based approach based on the rankings (top 100 U.S. and top 100 international), you'd get something looking like this:

1. Mackenzie
2. Pete Dye
3. Donald Ross
4. H.S. Colt
5. A.W. Tillinghast
6. Raynor/MacDonald
7. Jack Nicklaus
8. Tom Doak
9. Old Tom Morris
10. Tom Fazio

[Jon Spaulding]

If you came up with a numbers-based approach based on the rankings (top 100 U.S. and top 100 international), you'd get something looking like this:

1. Mackenzie
2. Pete Dye
3. Donald Ross
4. H.S. Colt
5. A.W. Tillinghast
6. Raynor/MacDonald
7. Jack Nicklaus
8. Tom Doak
9. Old Tom Morris
10. Tom Fazio

Jim, that's a set of numbers which induces some serious nausea on my end.

[Mac Plumart]

Jim...

On your numbers based approach, how do you handle a course like Harbour Town?  Points for Nicklaus and Dye or do you pick a lead archtiect and give them all the points or 1/2 points for each?

Thanks.

[Jim Colton]

I didn't spend too much time studying each instance, I just split the points in half if there were 2 guys listed. So Jack got half credit for HT and Sebonack.

[Anthony Gray]

RTJ, Fazio and Dye need to be replaced by Maxwell, Thomas and Flynn.

  Cool David. Can I call you Old School?

  Anthony

[Jon Spaulding]

RTJ, Fazio and Dye need to be replaced by Maxwell, Thomas and Flynn.

  Cool David. Can I call you Old School?

  Anthony

He only answers to Frank the Tank....

[Mac Plumart]

As long as he doesn't go streaking through the quad, I'm cool with him!!!

[Anthony Gray]

RTJ, Fazio and Dye need to be replaced by Maxwell, Thomas and Flynn.

  Cool David. Can I call you Old School?

  Anthony

He only answers to Frank the Tank....

  Jon,

 Come clean, What's up with your aviatar? Play the game Spalding!!

  Anthony

[Sean_A]

Its an impossible task as there are more than 10 archies that deserve to make the top 10 - if that makes any sense.  I don't know whether or not these guys can hang with the best, but I think

Fowler
Simpson
Alison

all deserve to be in any conversation of this sort.  At the bare minimum I would take out Jack and out in Fowler.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

I don't think anyone should try to "rank" architects.  You can rank our courses, but you can't really tell what part of those courses are ours, and what are our associates', and what are Mother Nature's.

A golf course is a finished product.  An architect is always a work in progress, and we are only as good as our next course.  [Of course, only a few of those on your list still have a next course to build.]

[Ronald Montesano]

Agreed...lists are personal favorites, based on likes and dislikes.  Very difficult to distance yourself in the end.  As one wise man asked, were Ross' greens really his?  Probably not.

[Jim Colton]

Tom,

  I think it's natural to rank architect careers, although the results may not be meaningful for the reasons you outlined.  But if somebody asked you something like 'which architect's career would you want to have?' or 'who do you think was the best of all time?', you'd probably have an answer for that, effectively creating a ranking of 1.

  The interesting point, perhaps a topic for another thread is...why doesn't Jack get his due?  I'm not saying I agree or disagree with him in the top 7, but he's had a role in a number courses likely considered in the top 200 or so in the world if you trust the collective wisdom of the various ratings.  Is there somebody else behind the scenes that deserves more of Jack's credit?

Castle Pines
Mayacama
Shoal Creek
Muirfield Village
Sebonack
Vista Vallarta
El Dorado
Cabo del Sol
Harbourtown

[Brian Phillips]

Jim,

His three best courses on that list were designed with other architects.

Harbour Town -  Dye
Sebonack - Doak
Muirfield Village - Muirhead

[Jim Colton]

Question for Mac RE: Coore/Crenshaw vs. Doak.  Would you rather have Doak's top 5 or C&C's Top 5?

[Mike_Young]

I agree with TD....why rank architects?
Think about it.....the basis for using  many of the new signatures is for real estate sales....the 35-40 year old VP of marketing for most of the large housing developments only cares about how much a particular name increases his "lot value"..it has nothing to do with how good the architect is...they will give (gave) him enough budget (both construction and maintenance) to have something that would turn heads and they spent fortunes on advertising and pr.....the architectural talent and skill was secondary.....and you never knew which associate would actually perform the routing, design etc.....actually most of the large fees of the time were mainly marketing fee attached to a much smaller design fee....pure hype...
Golf architects don't have the budgets to advertise and promote like housing developments DID....so housing development created these signatures not golf design.....
ALSO...most of these guys have agents that sell them....and there is nothing a young marketing VP likes more than to tell his buddies while drinking comp drinks at the club bar at the 100 million clubhouse how he had lunch "professional golfer signature architect"....I know a bunch of guys here have seen it.....
DISCLAIMER: no where above have I said their work was better or worse than us lowly regional golf architects....

[Brian_Ewen]

Braid !

[Mike_Young]

Tom,

  I think it's natural to rank architect careers, although the results may not be meaningful for the reasons you outlined.  But if somebody asked you something like 'which architect's career would you want to have?' or 'who do you think was the best of all time?', you'd probably have an answer for that, effectively creating a ranking of 1.

  The interesting point, perhaps a topic for another thread is...why doesn't Jack get his due?  I'm not saying I agree or disagree with him in the top 7, but he's had a role in a number courses likely considered in the top 200 or so in the world if you trust the collective wisdom of the various ratings.  Is there somebody else behind the scenes that deserves more of Jack's credit?

Castle Pines
Mayacama
Shoal Creek
Muirfield Village
Sebonack
Vista Vallarta
El Dorado
Cabo del Sol
Harbourtown

Why?
JN has my utmost respect....and for the contributions he made to the golf design industry over the last 30 years....
BuT he has had several really good senior designers over the years.... SO I DISAGREE WITH JACK NOT GETTING HIS DUE.....the guys that don't get the due are guys like Jim Lipe ,  Jay Moorish and a couple of others.....that is who doesn't get their due......and to prove that signature design is nothing more than RE Development promotion....do you see the same RE developers going after the talent that did their "signature" course when that talent leaves?