Best Architects

[Mac Plumart]

Great courses? debatable

I'm with you, but all the lists and, therefore, different methodologies rate them as best of the best.

[Jason Thurman]

There are different degrees of greatness. Whistling Straits and TPC Sawgrass are both great courses, but certainly lack the pedigree of places like Merion and Cypress Point.

If I were discussing "gems," I'd give a lot more weight to the truly elite courses in a designer's portfolio as opposed to the really excellent ones. That's where Pete Dye suffers a bit if you're ranking the best architects of all-time. I'm not sure he has done a transcendent course, though he's done a lot of really great ones.

Is that partly the result of working with weak properties? Sure, and he deserves some credit for overcoming his land. But if we put too much stock in circumstances over results, we end up ranking Allen Iverson as a better basketball player than Michael Jordan, and that's just silly.

[Mac Plumart]

I'm not sure he has done a transcendent course

With all due respect, Jason, I disagree vehemently with that statement regarding Pete Dye's portfolio.  I know The Golf Club was absolutely transcendent and potentially TPC Sawgrass and for awhile Harbour Town.

[Jeb Bearer]

I'm not sure he has done a transcendent course

With all due respect, Jason, I disagree vehemently with that statement regarding Pete Dye's portfolio.  I know The Golf Club was absolutely transcendent and potentially TPC Sawgrass and for awhile Harbour Town.

What do you mean by transcendent? That's not the word I would use. Sure, they're good courses, maybe great, that are well-known and generally well-accepted, and, especially Harbour Town, have greatly influenced modern GCA. But when I think of transcendent, I think of a truly special, one-of-a-kind course that has stood, or almost certainly will stand the test of time. Just my opinion, but I don't think these courses quite hit that mark.

[Jason Thurman]

How can something only be transcendent for a while? How can something transcend if it doesn't transcend time?

Ran's review of The Golf Club laments that it didn't garner more attention. I have a hard time calling it "transcendent," even if it is excellent.

TPC Sawgrass or Kiawah Ocean I could see, maybe. But I certainly don't think they're regarded in the same league with Cypress, Pebble, Augusta, Pine Valley, Merion, etc. That's really my only point: that there's a pretty big difference between a "gem" like Harbour Town or TPC Sawgrass and a "gem" like Oakmont. Quartz is wonderful, but no woman is replacing her diamond with it, you know?

[Mac Plumart]

You guys might be right.  To "transcend" for a period of time and then lose impact, like Harbour Town might be doing, isn't transcendent.  I don't know what to call it, revolutionary...innovative...eh, I don't know.

I feel like The Golf Club did, perhaps, usher in minimalism right in the face of RTJ's "maximalism".  I do feel that qualifies.  

And there is something about TPC Sawgrass that I think is transcendent.  Dictionary definition...to rise above or extend notably beyond ordinary limits.  Didn't that course do that?  Swamp land becomes a world-class, long-lasting golf course.

Now, if you want to argue that these courses are "better" than Cypress Pine Valley...I can't do that.  I've played neither.  The ratings suggests these are better, but all these courses discussed are listed at Top 100 by everyone.  Maybe a better cut off is Top 10 or 25 by everyone.

Regardless, I do think Pete Dye is an all-time great and has had a HUGE impact on architecture as we know it.  Do you disagree with that?

[Wade Schueneman]

Mac,

It is interesting that you put Tilly so high and Doak does not appear.  According to you rankings (and based on our conversations) you love Old Mac and very highly esteem Sebonack (sans two holes).  I am thinking that when Dismal II opens that Mr. Doak might land up the list a ways (maybe #5 or #6).

By the way, Merry CHristmas and Happy New Year!  I hope that you and yours had a great holiday.

[Mac Plumart]

Wade...

On the list of gems, I'm not putting Tilly anywhere.  The numbers put him there.  He has 7 Unanimous Gems.  Mackenzie has 6, as does Dye.  Doak has 5 and so does Ross.  Here is a link to that list...  http://mrpgolf.com/archies_by_gem.html

On my personal Top 10...updated sometime earlier this year I rank them...

Mackenzie;
Ross;
Colt;
Dye;
Tilly;
Doak,
Morris;
Maxwell;
MacDonald/Raynor;
Coore/Crenshaw

But that list is just my personal opinion.  This thread was begun 3 or 4 years ago with an early version of this personal list, perhaps you were looking at that list.  FYI, here is a link to my current Top 10 list http://mrpgolf.com/BEST_ARCHITECTS.html

[Wade Schueneman]

Clarification - I was commenting on your original list.  I know that Tilly has lots of gems, but none seem to approach the top of your personal list.

[Mac Plumart]

Got it.

I should have started a different thread to avoid confusion.

My mistake.

[Wade Schueneman]

By the way, I like your list.  Your fondness for Colt explains (in part) your eagerness to get to the English heathlands.  Since I am always pushing Northern Ireland on you, I will add that Dunluce is a great Colt course (with a few weak holes at the end) on teriffic land.

[Mac Plumart]

By the way, I like your list.  Your fondness for Colt explains (in part) your eagerness to get to the English heathlands.  Since I am always pushing Northern Ireland on you, I will add that Dunluce is a great Colt course (with a few weak holes at the end) on teriffic land.

You've sold me on Royal County Down.  And Colt being right next door has nothing to do with it.   

[Jason Thurman]

Now, if you want to argue that these courses are "better" than Cypress Pine Valley...I can't do that.  I've played neither.  The ratings suggests these are better, but all these courses discussed are listed at Top 100 by everyone.  Maybe a better cut off is Top 10 or 25 by everyone.

I just think I would differentiate between the elite, top 25 courses and the exceptional top 100. The former should be weighted much more strongly, at least for me.

Regardless, I do think Pete Dye is an all-time great and has had a HUGE impact on architecture as we know it.  Do you disagree with that?

We're in full agreement there. I'd knock him down a touch based on a lack of Top 25 courses, but maybe bump him up a touch based on all the public and therefore accessible courses he's done. He's top 10 for me, but the idea that some people would put him top 3 or even top 5 is a little much I think just based on the lack of a top 25 course.

[Mac Plumart]

I would differentiate between the elite, top 25 courses and the exceptional top 100

Agreed.  Thanks!

[Nigel Islam]

I think its sad that not more of these guys are not in the real hall of fame. I feel strongly that Raynor, Tillie, Maxwell, and Colt should be. Probably George Thomas too. I mean if 41 and the Ayatollah are in come on? Colin Montgomerie? Ran should be in for this site before Colin.

[Giles Payne]

I am very surprised at very little love for Willie Park Jr - he has a pretty good catalogue of courses.

[Sven Nilsen]

Giles:

Park is going in to the World Golf Hall of Fame this year:

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golftalkcentral/willie-park-jr-to-be-inducted-into-hall-of-fame/

Mungo Park may have more information on how much his architectural work influenced the decision for induction.

Sven