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jonathan_becker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2009, 01:36:31 PM »
I've walked it twice and it's not too bad.  IMO the hard part isn't walking the holes, it's walking from the greens to tees.  (i.e.- #2 green to #3 tee is like walking up a mountain for the blue and black tees).

For anyone that hasn't walked it yet, you had better eat some calories before the round because you're gonna need them.  Furthermore, unless you're haulin' ass around the property, you will be out there for more than 4 hours.  I'm sure it's been done in under 4, but because of the huge acreage of the place, realistically it's far from a quick round.

Having said this I think the property is amazing, the course is great, and it will only get better.  

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2009, 01:47:11 PM »
It will be an interesting test case from an economic point of view.  I'd be very interested to see how the number of rounds is affected by banning carts.  Most of the folks heading up there and paying $150 plus caddy are not spritely twentysomethings.  Of course Whistling Straights charges more, but then again they have 3 other courses and a large hotel/spa complex (as well as having higher ratings and having hosted a major).  
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 01:54:50 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Chris Kaebisch

Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2009, 02:16:57 PM »
Carts will not be allowed due to cart traffic stressing the grass.  We have the US Am on 2011 and our owner wants to make the course look perfect for that championship.  Having carts on the course was more of a baby-sitting job for the ranges and pro staff.  There was no respect from the golfers to allow carts.  Like I said in a previous post, The futre looks bright at Erin Hills!

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2009, 02:28:55 PM »
Cabush-

I can't wait to see it next summer! What do you think of the changes? Particularly the 2nd green?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2009, 07:23:26 PM »







cabush... do you know how difficult it will be for the disabled to obtain a cart?  Will they accept your word?  require a car placard?  Require a doctor's note?  What will be the requirements?

Jim Colton

Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2009, 08:07:25 PM »
Golfweek is reporting that the biarritz is gone. The 10th will be converted to a long par 4 to a different green.

Chris Kaebisch

Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2009, 08:54:15 PM »
that is correct #10 will be a par 4, just moving the green in

Brent Carlson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2009, 12:23:19 AM »
I have to say that I really liked this course pre changes.  It should only get better.  The walk is tough but doable.

EH has that special something.  Walking up 18 in an open landscape of fescue with the classic clubhouse and holy hill in the distance.  It doesn't get much better.  ;)

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2009, 12:30:06 AM »
Nine miles does seem like an exaggeration, but it could easily be 8 to 8.5 miles to play all the back tees.  Consider:

Playing length, as you say, is 5 miles.

If the green-to-tee walks are each 100 yards, that's 1700 yards, or one more mile.

Many of the walks to the back tees are quite long walk-backs, I'd guess that is at least one more mile for the total.

So we're up to 7 miles, and we haven't included anything to get to the clubhouse and back, or accounted for the fact that nobody hits the ball down the sprinkler line and walks the shortest distance the whole way round.

Tom,

I don't think the green to back tee walks average anywhere near 100 yards.  Maybe I'm missing something but how do walk backs add to the total distance if we are using the back tees at 8,500 yards as the length of the course?  Seems to me the green to tee walk are what they are whether they involve a walk forward or a walk back.  In any event only tee #2 requires a significant walk back from the prior green and that is around 75 yards.  

Most of us don't play the back tees so the walks can seem pretty long as we walk past the back tees but those yards in most cases would be included in the 8,500 and in some other cases we get to take some short cuts off the 8,500.  My guess is we are around 6.5 miles from car in the parking lot back to the car in the parking lot even with zig zags on the course and that is a pretty healthly hike given the terrain involved.

That said I think there are a few too many climbs to tees and inelegant green to tee walks out there, most notably from 4 green to 5 tee, from 9 green to 10 tee and from 18 green to the clubhouse.  

I had heard about about the conversion of #10 this summer.  While not convinced the 10th ever worked as a Biarittz since the green surface is blind to a long shot and the swale feature usually does not come into play for a short third shot on a long par 5, I still think the terrain and overall hole presents a stronger par 5 than the reconfigured 7th. which seems to me to still be the weak link on the course.  Others who opinions I respect see if differently but that's my view.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2009, 05:15:06 AM »
Nine miles does seem like an exaggeration, but it could easily be 8 to 8.5 miles to play all the back tees.  Consider:

Playing length, as you say, is 5 miles.

If the green-to-tee walks are each 100 yards, that's 1700 yards, or one more mile.

Many of the walks to the back tees are quite long walk-backs, I'd guess that is at least one more mile for the total.

So we're up to 7 miles, and we haven't included anything to get to the clubhouse and back, or accounted for the fact that nobody hits the ball down the sprinkler line and walks the shortest distance the whole way round.

Tom,

I don't think the green to back tee walks average anywhere near 100 yards.  Maybe I'm missing something but how do walk backs add to the total distance if we are using the back tees at 8,500 yards as the length of the course?  Seems to me the green to tee walk are what they are whether they involve a walk forward or a walk back.  In any event only tee #2 requires a significant walk back from the prior green and that is around 75 yards.  

Most of us don't play the back tees so the walks can seem pretty long as we walk past the back tees but those yards in most cases would be included in the 8,500 and in some other cases we get to take some short cuts off the 8,500.  My guess is we are around 6.5 miles from car in the parking lot back to the car in the parking lot even with zig zags on the course and that is a pretty healthly hike given the terrain involved.

That said I think there are a few too many climbs to tees and inelegant green to tee walks out there, most notably from 4 green to 5 tee, from 9 green to 10 tee and from 18 green to the clubhouse.  

I had heard about about the conversion of #10 this summer.  While not convinced the 10th ever worked as a Biarittz since the green surface is blind to a long shot and the swale feature usually does not come into play for a short third shot on a long par 5, I still think the terrain and overall hole presents a stronger par 5 than the reconfigured 7th. which seems to me to still be the weak link on the course.  Others who opinions I respect see if differently but that's my view.  

Dan

Surely a walk forward (often more accurately - sideways), toward the eventual goal of the house, makes for a shorter walk than walking back then past what would be forward tees.  This is one of my pet hates and a huge reason for not liking back tees.  They often seem to involve a hike in the wrong direction and for my money, take away from the joy of a good routing.  Not quite as bad is if back tees are near the greens and a long walk must be made to play the daily tees.  Though this is less common as the other scenario because many back tees have been added on an after thought and it doesn't make a lot of sense for the routing to best accommodate the back tees.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 05:19:53 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2009, 09:35:46 PM »
Sean

You are standing on the green and its 40 yards to the next tee.  The next hole is 400 yards long from that tee to the next green.   How does the direction you walk to the tee be it forward, sideways or back make the overall walk longer or shorter.  In the Erin Hills example the walk backs are already included in the distance from green to tee and shouldn't be counted twice.  That's all I'm saying and I certainly get what you are saying about the esthetics of walk backs on older courses. 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2009, 11:15:20 PM »
Guys,

I played Erin Hills a few years ago not long after it opened.  I enjoyed the course and its grandeur immensely.  Without knowing the specifics of hosting the US AM, and obviously the eventual goal of hosting a US OPEN, I am really struggling to see how Erin Hills can survive walking  only.

I understand the new owner has a big bankroll and is not really looking at this as a money making venture, but how much money can the club really lose each year and remain viable?

I remember the course as being WALKABLE, but i would not call it an easy walk.  Lawsonia is an easy walk, Erin Hills is not.

I have to echo the sentiments of those that are struggling to see who is consistently going to pay $160 plus the reccomended $85 dollar per caddy fee(is that a joke? I know either erin hills or the caddy management company is taking a big percentage of that, but still, $85 dollars for a caddy in the middle of Wisconnsin seems absolutely absurd to me. ( Although I will say my four caddy was very good) While there may be some golf nuts that will walk and carry their own and save the $85 I can assure you the majority of the public will not do this.  So now we are talking about $245 to play Erin Hills, plus lunch etc and we are looking at a $300 dollar day.

Where are the rounds going to come from???  The only thing I can think of that makes any sense is that if they succeed in bringing the OPen to the course then they will start to make their money back.  Erin Hills is great, but it lacks the eye candy of the Kohler Resort, Bandon, Pebble Beach, etc.

I'm going to make the call that this no cart policy does not last more than a year, if that.

Jason

You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2009, 11:58:53 AM »
Jason,

What do you think is a reasonable caddie fee?

Will Peterson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2009, 07:58:00 PM »
I thought the caddie fees at Erin Hills were not properly priced.  It was the same price from a single or a double, and if two were taking a caddie you were required to take a double.  You should have a choice about single or double, and should save some money on a double because you are giving up some service as the caddie must deal with two player.

I think a fair price would be:

-a show up, shut up, keep up type of caddie:  single $40-50, double $30-40 / per player
-a professional, skilled caddie (great with yardage, greens, lines, shot selection, and possibly club selection): single $75-100, double $50-60 / per player

I had a terrible caddie at Erin Hills, and have spoken to other that had great ones.  A ranking system, like many private clubs have, would be more appropriate and allow those who do not want the extra attention to save some money while allowing those that want it to be more assured of having it.

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2009, 08:31:30 PM »
I found EH to be a good course but certainly not great. Is it even in the top 5 in Wis? My top 5 are MilwaukeeCC, Lawsonia, Bull at Pinehurst Farms, River Course, Whistling Straits, no specific order. EH is on the same level as U. Ridge, Big Fish, Brown Deer,etc. in my book. Not sure why it gets such great fanfare. At $250 with your caddy it's a hard sell when you can go over to Lawsonia and play a better course for 1/4 the price. What in the hell would possess someone to pay the freight more than once at EH?
                                                                                            Jack

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2009, 09:46:06 PM »
Jason,

What do you think is a reasonable caddie fee?

Mike-

I play golf in the Philadelphia area, where caddies are norm.  In this area for a caddy carrying two bags, $60-65 per bag is plenty.  I think the going rate at Merion is about $75 per bag and at Pine Valley it is about $80, inclusive of tip.

What do the caddies get at Milwaukee Country Club?  I'd be shocked if the rate inclusive of tip was $85.

I understand Erin Hills is trying to put themselves in the market of Whistling, Bandon, Pebble etc.  But come on, the place is clearly not at that level yet.

I didn't mean to go off on that tangent about caddie fees, but when you are telling guys that the course is mandatory walking only and 90% of the people playing have no thought of carrying their own, it really adds to the cost.

As I mentioned I played Erin Hills once 2 years ago on a trip that included Erin Hills, Lawsonia and Eagles-Packers   :) .  I unexpectedly found myself back in Wisconsin last year at the same time when my brother qualified for the Mid Am.  I really didn't give playing Erin Hills again a second thought due to the cost.  I gave tremendous thought to playing Lawsonia again.  Unfortunately since we ended up going to the Packers game again we played Bull at Pinehurst Farms. (bad decision, should have gone out of way to play Lawsonia again).

And btw, unfortunately my fee for carrying for my brother at the mid Am didn't come close to approaching $85 per round  ;)


I found EH to be a good course but certainly not great. Is it even in the top 5 in Wis? My top 5 are MilwaukeeCC, Lawsonia, Bull at Pinehurst Farms, River Course, Whistling Straits, no specific order. EH is on the same level as U. Ridge, Big Fish, Brown Deer,etc. in my book. Not sure why it gets such great fanfare. At $250 with your caddy it's a hard sell when you can go over to Lawsonia and play a better course for 1/4 the price. What in the hell would possess someone to pay the freight more than once at EH?
                                                                                            Jack

Jack,

You found Bull at Pinehurst Farms to be better than EH?  Really? 

Jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2009, 11:35:49 PM »
I'm really sorry to hear that Mr. Lang's admirable intentions have not worked out, ideally or practically.  But, I honestly feel from what I've read that he got thrown off the noble path very early on.  All the early publicity and his efforts to just go mow out some potential fairway's to get the look of how it would lay upon the land were intentions of a minimalist, and a gentleman that really wanted to create a bit of Ireland for the avid and loyal golf fans here in Wisconsin.  But, I think the concept slowly started to get dinged here and there, where every new more grand ideal became grandiose, and the course concept became more and more grandiose, with all the talk before it was even fully designed and constructed of a potential big time USGA or major, etc. 

Then, with that pride of building a course that would be in the pantheon of hosting a major, getting caught up in the fact that any new course coming on line in this era would have to be a very long and tough test with special turfing considerations harkening back to the old days with fescue (i.e. like Chambers Bay) rather than a great course that evolved over 50-75 years like most major venues, EH became a never ending series of upgrades, design challenges, and too much creativity to design and build/grow something in the highly revered and seldom followed (minimalist, use of natural topography, fescue F&F ideals, and all the other nostalgia things that we talk about here on GCA).  The project started to get away from the early noble ideal of a simple natural course laid upon the land for the majority of avid and loyal customers, to a CCFAD, potential major, over built, over conceived and costly venue. 

It is too hard to walk comfortable, or repeatedly, too costly to be a repeat customer on a regular basis, and just over designed in creative sense of severity of greensites and blind shots and too much rough beyond the blind areas.  They started having to tweak things that should have been better thought out from the start. 

Yet, the site of this course is among the real beautiful settings in this State.  The heart and soul of Mr Lang and all the contributors was deeply into it.  But, expectations were ridiculously built up, almost in a sense of hubris and something like the "irrational exhuberance" that the investment world exhibited, IMHO.  And IMHO, this new owner Zeigler has a rather ironic backround if "irrational exhuberance" is a legitimate emotion in play. 

Perhaps you can fold these comments back into Mike Young's thread, "revelation - golf was never meant to make $$$$$".   I doubt EH ever will...  :-[ :-\ :'(
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2009, 11:49:07 PM »
I'm really sorry to hear that Mr. Lang's admirable intentions have not worked out, ideally or practically.  But, I honestly feel from what I've read that he got thrown off the noble path very early on.  All the early publicity and his efforts to just go mow out some potential fairway's to get the look of how it would lay upon the land were intentions of a minimalist, and a gentleman that really wanted to create a bit of Ireland for the avid and loyal golf fans here in Wisconsin.  But, I think the concept slowly started to get dinged here and there, where every new more grand ideal became grandiose, and the course concept became more and more grandiose, with all the talk before it was even fully designed and constructed of a potential big time USGA or major, etc. 

Then, with that pride of building a course that would be in the pantheon of hosting a major, getting caught up in the fact that any new course coming on line in this era would have to be a very long and tough test with special turfing considerations harkening back to the old days with fescue (i.e. like Chambers Bay) rather than a great course that evolved over 50-75 years like most major venues, EH became a never ending series of upgrades, design challenges, and too much creativity to design and build/grow something in the highly revered and seldom followed (minimalist, use of natural topography, fescue F&F ideals, and all the other nostalgia things that we talk about here on GCA).  The project started to get away from the early noble ideal of a simple natural course laid upon the land for the majority of avid and loyal customers, to a CCFAD, potential major, over built, over conceived and costly venue. 

It is too hard to walk comfortable, or repeatedly, too costly to be a repeat customer on a regular basis, and just over designed in creative sense of severity of greensites and blind shots and too much rough beyond the blind areas.  They started having to tweak things that should have been better thought out from the start. 

Yet, the site of this course is among the real beautiful settings in this State.  The heart and soul of Mr Lang and all the contributors was deeply into it.  But, expectations were ridiculously built up, almost in a sense of hubris and something like the "irrational exhuberance" that the investment world exhibited, IMHO.  And IMHO, this new owner Zeigler has a rather ironic backround if "irrational exhuberance" is a legitimate emotion in play. 

Perhaps you can fold these comments back into Mike Young's thread, "revelation - golf was never meant to make $$$$$".   I doubt EH ever will...  :-[ :-\ :'(

good thread your Honor....lots of changes to the course...be interesting to know all of them so far/how many holes have been changed
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Greg Clark

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2009, 12:13:35 AM »
I would say that the future of Erin Hills now rests completely with whether the USGA awards the 2017 Open to the course or not.  I like the course quite a bit.  But even after the renovations, there are still some problems - although it is nice to hear the misplaced 10th green is going to be changed.  And there is just no way the course as a stand alone offering is going to get the type of revenue needed from a walking only policy.  It is walkable, but is not easy at all, and certainly is going to eliminate a large percentage of people that would otherwise give it a look.  Maybe if it has the the abillity to market a coming US Open (the Amateur isn't going to be enough), but even them I'm not sure.

Was having fescue fairways really required to get an Open for the site?  In retrospect the decision for fescue looks pretty dubious.  The land is wonderful out there, and I'm pulling for the viability of the course, but I'm skeptical with a no cart policy in that locale.  As an aside, my group had a wonderful forecaddie at Erin Hills.  Claimed he was an Augusta native, and a regular looper at Augusta National.  The bartender also claimed he was on loan during the summer.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 10:56:46 AM by Greg_Clark »

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2009, 10:14:22 AM »
Erin Hills no carts policy presents a perfect opportunity for them to introduce a fleet of those battery powered 3 wheel trolley's like everyone uses in the UK.  I think Sun Mountain offers one. 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2009, 10:22:36 AM »
Greg-

I agree that they are going all-in betting on getting an Open...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Chris Kaebisch

Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2009, 11:03:50 AM »
I repect all your opinions, but everyone has their own tastes in wine, women, and golf courses.  You can say as much as you want about the cart fleet.  Erin Hills will just have carts anymore.  Pony up and take a caddie!  I know a lot of people cry about something that happens in their round(bad play) and they blame the golf course.....get over it!    Erin Hills offeres the authentic feel and very minimial approach.  Just shut up and play golf!

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2009, 11:12:22 AM »
OK CAbush (if that is your real name  ::) ) for that kind of money and a better enjoyment of golf, I'll play Lawsonia about 5-6 times, and walk w/o caddie, and just shut up...  ::) 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2009, 11:14:47 AM »
It's a shame we can't get frank commentary from RW on this whole thing.

Best laid plans and all.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Chris Kaebisch

Re: Erin Hills - Sold
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2009, 11:23:46 AM »
RJ-

Sounds good man!   enjoy!

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