Are the FATHERS of american architecture really better than todays guys?

[Anthony Gray]

  Many of the "Old Dead Guys" (I don't like that term) get fame and high rankings in the top 100.

  Are they better than the current guys?

  Many of those guys had carreers in things other than golf. Todays designers have advanced educations in golf course architecture.

  By the way who was the first architect that can say he majored it in college?

  How can a physician, stock broker or insurance salesman design a course that ranks higher than men with a degree in the field?

  Please Discuss

  Thank You

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

Anthony,

Why is it that you are better at social interaction than college speech majors?

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,

Why is it that you are better at social interaction than college speech majors?

  I know that your comment is humorous, but there is a great deal of wisdom hiding in it.

  Anthony

 

[Chris_Clouser]

I wouldn't say many.  If you look through Cornish and Whitten's book The Golf Course, there are several bios of architects.  I'm guessing over 300, maybe more.  Of the Old Dead Guys you probably have under 20 that have multiple courses in the rankings today.  Of the new guys working today, there are several that have multiple courses and some have more than many, if not all, of the Old Dead Guys. 

The industry is completely different today.  Comparing the two eras is difficult at best. 

[Sean_A]

I have always been one to believe that any like thing can be compared with another like thing and from that comparison we can draw at least preliminary conclusions that may or may not change over time.  But, I don't think we can say the designers of any age were better than another.  For that matter, it is hard to accurately compare designers within an age.  So much depends on the quality of the land, restrictions, budgets, maintenance practices and opinion (both personal and group think).  Without all the info its just a stab in the dark.  Its far better to discuss what is good or bad about courses rather than archies unless you really know the score about projects or have seen so many courses of an archie that obvious patterns emerge.  Of course, what an obvious pattern is may be quite different among rational people!

Ciao

[Anthony Gray]

  Just a thought.....
 
  Geoff Shackleford and David Stam have more knowledge about golf course architecture than CBM or The Good Doctor had when they were designing their Top 30 courses. So why are the older courses ranked better? Are THey better? Why? Why don't the new courses break in?

  Anthony

 

[Anthony Gray]

I have always been one to believe that any like thing can be compared with another like thing and from that comparison we can draw at least preliminary conclusions that may or may not change over time.  But, I don't think we can say the designers of any age were better than another.  For that matter, it is hard to accurately compare designers within an age.  So much depends on the quality of the land, restrictions, budgets, maintenance practices and opinion (both personal and group think).  Without all the info its just a stab in the dark.  Its far better to discuss what is good or bad about courses rather than archies unless you really know the score about projects or have seen so many courses of an archie that obvious patterns emerge.  Of course, what an obvious pattern is may be quite different among rational people!

Ciao

  Sean,

 Understood and thank you for your input. But do the YLG (Young Living Guys) have a chance to break into the top 10? Is Shinnycocbetter land than Bandon? Is Pinehurst better land than Castle Stuart? How important is tradition? THe Old Course is flat......

  Anthony

 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Anthony,
I think RTJones Sr. is credited as being the first to design his time in college around his architecture pursuits. Bruce Matthews Sr. was another who did the same thing, and I think around the same time frame as RTJ.

This may sound flippant, but not much about the game has changed in 400 years. You can earn a degree in landscape architecture and all the modern techniques of construction but you can't earn a degree in talent. You're either good then or now.

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,
I think RTJones Sr. is credited as being the first to design his time in college around his architecture pursuits. Bruce Matthews Sr. was another who did the same thing, and I think around the same time frame as RTJ.

This may sound flippant, but not much about the game has changed in 400 years. You can earn a degree in landscape architecture and all the modern techniques of construction but you can't earn a degree in talent. You're either good then or now.

  Jim,
 
  Thank you for your input. A couple years ago I designed some bunkering at a local public course with only my golfing travels as education. They were well recieved. I have been looking for that "Awersome" course for years that I can play and is the quality of say Augusta. So why don't we have it? Augusta...designed by a golfer and a doctor......

  Anthony

 

[Jaeger Kovich]

Its one thing to be great at what you do... its another to invent what you do.

Originality is the key... And some of our modern guys proven to be more than capable of original thought. And they are the ones that we will be talking about for a long time.

[David Stamm]

 Anthony, you make the observation that can a physician, a stock broker, insurance salesman rank higher than men who studied, ie had formal schooling for the subject. Just think about what you're saying! These "Fathers of American Architecture" had no formal training! And yet their work stands the test of time. They were the trailblazers, the ones that led golf course design out of the dark ages of steeplechase golf. We will never know for sure the answer, but, IMO, we would not have the great designs today if these men had not done what they had first. These men did not have themselves to look to for inspiration, they had to make it up as they went, all the while trying emulate what they saw across the sea and implement those ideas on a totally different (in most cases) canvass. After WWII, golf course architecture went through a 45 year abyss. And why has it emerged from that era? Because the classical elements have been resurrected, elements that were born out of that era we call the golden age.

[Mike_Young]

Anthony,

There were good and bad ODG's and good and bad YLG's.....and a college major had nothing to do with it...
As for how todays courses will fair.....
Our oldest courses are not more than 90 years old.....how many of the courses from the 80's will make it that long?
Maybe a few more from the 21st century will last that long but the double loaded housing fairways may not be here in 80 or 90 years.....

I have a friend that performed the  Rachmaninoff Piano concerto #2 tonite I went to see him...amazing......he is 37 years old....Julliard grad at 15..Julliard Masters at 17....performed all over the world.....has to teach piano lessons to kids......yet we have a 400 pound golf pro rapper that just made it as a country rap artist.....

Another friend that could not stand art school ....leaves and is making a fortune...and the artist that stayed and got masters and have to do draft fairs can do nothing but slam the guy.....

what does that say for GCA's

I think the main attraction to the ODG stuff is the maturity....ability of the owner/club to maintain/improve and survive over the last century

But I don't think for one minute the ODG's were better....nor worse.....

Go clean some teeth.....

[Ben Sims]

Was C.B. Macdonald a better golf architect than Bill Coore?

Forgive me for saying.  But it's a little like saying that Eddie Rickenbacker was a better pilot than Robin Olds. If Gen. Olds had been thrown back in time and stuck into Rickenbacker's Nieuport 28, and Rickenbacker had strapped on Olds' mother hen F-4, would they both have been aces?  That's pretty much impossible to say.  

It seems to me that what we consider minimal earth moving by today's standards could possibly have been massive in scale to the fathers of American architecture.  The same thing went in aviation.  Fast in 1917 is the same speed that most modern jets fall out of the sky at today.

[Bill Brightly]

The ODG's ( I LOVE that term, I really do! ) have two huge advantages over the YLG (hate that term.) The first is the sites. The ODG's had far greater choice of sites. Macdonald spent several years traveling between Boston nd DC before settling on Southampton. I have no doubt that part of the ODG's assignment was to help clubs choose among various optional locations to build a course, whereas today, the site is probably a given. So to the extent that you can't have a great course without a great site...the ODG's have a huge edge.

Secondly, many of the ODG's were hired by the wealthiest people, and those clubs remained strong over time, with plenty of resources to create and maintain near-perfect playing conditions. When people rave about Augusta, it is not just the course design, it also includes the fabulous greens and meticulous manicuring. That is true of almost all of the top old courses.

The current architects probably know 1000% more about HOW to build a quality course, how to make the course drain, how to make the grass grow best, how to build greens that will putt well and withstand traffic, etc, etc.

So, IMO, if we could send  today's best architects back one hundred years in time and give them their choice of sites,  they'd build BETTER courses than the ODG's (did I mention that I like that term? )  

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony, you make the observation that can a physician, a stock broker, insurance salesman rank higher than men who studied, ie had formal schooling for the subject. Just think about what you're saying! These "Fathers of American Architecture" had no formal training! And yet their work stands the test of time. They were the trailblazers, the ones that led golf course design out of the dark ages of steeplechase golf. We will never know for sure the answer, but, IMO, we would not have the great designs today if these men had not done what they had first. These men did not have themselves to look to for inspiration, they had to make it up as they went, all the while trying emulate what they saw across the sea and implement those ideas on a totally different (in most cases) canvass. After WWII, golf course architecture went through a 45 year abyss. And why has it emerged from that era? Because the classical elements have been resurrected, elements that were born out of that era we call the golden age.

  David,

  Thanks for your comments and forgive me missing the other m. Please let me share a little story. In the dental literature there was this dentist that was doing some unique things. I was impressed so one day I called the guy. He graciously invited me to his office. I watched him work for a day and we viewed his photos. I left and took what he taught me and improved on it. My work eventually became better than his...the original. So Why are the modern courses not better than the originals?

  With great respect,

  Anthony

 

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,

There were good and bad ODG's and good and bad YLG's.....and a college major had nothing to do with it...
As for how todays courses will fair.....
Our oldest courses are not more than 90 years old.....how many of the courses from the 80's will make it that long?
Maybe a few more from the 21st century will last that long but the double loaded housing fairways may not be here in 80 or 90 years.....

I have a friend that performed the  Rachmaninoff Piano concerto #2 tonite I went to see him...amazing......he is 37 years old....Julliard grad at 15..Julliard Masters at 17....performed all over the world.....has to teach piano lessons to kids......yet we have a 400 pound golf pro rapper that just made it as a country rap artist.....

Another friend that could not stand art school ....leaves and is making a fortune...and the artist that stayed and got masters and have to do draft fairs can do nothing but slam the guy.....

what does that say for GCA's

I think the main attraction to the ODG stuff is the maturity....ability of the owner/club to maintain/improve and survive over the last century

But I don't think for one minute the ODG's were better....nor worse.....

Go clean some teeth.....

  Mike,

  Every tme I eat the hickory smoked stuff it gets stucked between my teeth. The ODG no better or no worse, then why are they rated and written about more?

  Anthony

[Mike_Young]

  Mike,

  Every tme I eat the hickory smoked stuff it gets stucked between my teeth. The ODG no better or no worse, then why are they rated and written about more?

  Anthony

Perverts enjoy reading and studying them more than us younger dudes

[Anthony Gray]

  Mike,

  Every tme I eat the hickory smoked stuff it gets stucked between my teeth. The ODG no better or no worse, then why are they rated and written about more?

  Anthony

/
Perverts enjoy reading and studying them more than us younger dudes

  So why isn't your work more respected than an insurance salesman? Will you have to croak for people to value your efforts or write a book about your designs? I pulled teeth on 6 out of my first 7 patients this morning, I thought I was back in WV. Does it piss you of when people say your bunker style is Rossner? What is so wrong with it just being Young?

  Anthony

 

[Ben Sims]

Anthony,

This is a rhetorical question of course.  But is Greene Vardiman Black a better dentist than you?

More innovative?  Maybe.  But a "better" dentist.  I think not.

[David Stamm]

The ODG's ( I LOVE that term, I really do! ) have two huge advantages over the YLG (hate that term.) The first is the sites. The ODG's had far greater choice of sites. Macdonald spent several years traveling between Boston nd DC before settling on Southampton. I have no doubt that part of the ODG's assignment was to help clubs choose among various optional locations to build a course, whereas today, the site is probably a given. So to the extent that you can't have a great course without a great site...the ODG's have a huge edge.

Secondly, many of the ODG's were hired by the wealthiest people, and those clubs remained strong over time, with plenty of resources to create and maintain near-perfect playing conditions. When people rave about Augusta, it is not just the course design, it also includes the fabulous greens and meticulous manicuring. That is true of almost all of the top old courses.

The current architects probably know 1000% more about HOW to build a quality course, how to make the course drain, how to make the grass grow best, how to build greens that will putt well and withstand traffic, etc, etc.

So, IMO, if we could send  today's best architects back one hundred years in time and give them their choice of sites,  they'd build BETTER courses than the ODG's (did I mention that I like that term? )  

Bill, what classification would you give the sites that the Bandon courses, Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Chambers Bay, Sebonack, Bulls Bay, Arcadia Bluffs, Kinglsey, Kinloch, Erin Hills, Hidden Creek, Tallgrass, Rustic Canyon, Cuscowilla, Tobacco Road, Whistling Straits, Chechessee, Friars Head, Inniscrone, Kapalua, Lost Dunes, Rock Creek, etc, occupy, compared to what the golden age architects had to work with?



How would you compare the men who hired the golden age arch's vs say, Mike Keiser, Herb Kohler, the O'Neals, Dick Youngscap, Mark Parsinen, Michael Pascucci?


As for knowing 1000% more about grass, drainage etc., I'm not so sure. More technology at their disposal? Sure.



It seems to me that today's architects have built great courses on the sites they have been given. Fazio states that he prefers having a flat, featureless site. But the premise that today's architects could go back in time and build better courses on the same sites as CPC, NGLA, Maidstone GCGC, Pasa, Valley Club, etc is bit presumptous. They would have the advantage of knwoing what someone else had built there at one time, and "go from there".

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,

This is a rhetorical question of course.  But is Greene Vardiman Black a better dentist than you?

More innovative?  Maybe.  But a "better" dentist.  I think not.

  Ben,

  Excactly.... My point. Shouldn't the modern courses be ranked higher than the old ones?

  Anthony

[Mike_Young]

  So why isn't your work more respected than an insurance salesman? Will you have to croak for people to value your efforts or write a book about your designs? I pulled teeth on 6 out of my first 7 patients this morning, I thought I was back in WV. Does it piss you of when people say your bunker style is Rossner? What is so wrong with it just being Young?

  Anthony

 

Dear dentist dude,
In the past couple of years I have realized a couple of things about this architect business.....
Most boards and committees don't know if you do good or bad work.....only what their buddies recommend to them from other clubs...and on top of that it really doesn't matter to them as long as no blame goes toward them and there is someone there to blame.....SO RESPECT for architect's work is something I don't think really exist much out there....the average person making the decision doesn't know what he is supposed to like or respect.....IMHO
That insurance salesman does pretty good......
I am writing a book right now.....
Yes it pisses me off when someone says my bunker style is Rossner....he was a pervert.....
I don't care what they call it.....the object is to survive to design another day......
If you pulled teeth on 6 of your first 7 patients.....did the other one have any teeth to pull or were you just doing exploratory cleaning in TN....

[Anthony Gray]

  David Stamm,

  Respectfully......Don't you have more knowledge than CBM had 100 years ago? Then why can't you build a course that ranks higher than NGLA? You and CBM are both students of the game. Does tradition play too big a part in the rankings?  

 Curious,

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

  Dear Mike Young,

  If you improove on the original, shouldn't it be better? Why is Donald Ross greater than you?

  Anthony

[Mike_Young]

Analogy....Dentist dude,

have you ever taken a $300 bottle of wine and poured a glass for a cool dude....you know the type...no socks...collar up...guccis with the horsebit buckle.....  then go in the kitchen pour it in another bottle from a $10 vintage......

then take the same dude and buy a swisher sweet cigar but put the Cohiber label on it......

the same dudes are making decisions at some of the old classic places and the modern ones.....

don't you think golf is the same way as the wine and the cigar....I know it is