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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Anthony,

It's more than tradition, the ODGs were the Pioneers and they get extra points, forever, just for being there.

They also get a point or two just for being dead.

They probably get at least one more point for holding the 'record' for such a long time, too. There wasn't much of anything built in the 50 or so years after their era to rival what they did.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0


  Dear Mike Young,

  If you improove on the original, shouldn't it be better? Why is Donald Ross greater than you?

  Anthony


you have hurt my feelings now dude......I never said he was.... 8)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Anthony Gray

Analogy....Dentist dude,

have you ever taken a $300 bottle of wine and poured a glass for a cool dude....you know the type...no socks...collar up...guccis with the horsebit buckle.....  then go in the kitchen pour it in another bottle from a $10 vintage......

then take the same dude and buy a swisher sweet cigar but put the Cohiber label on it......

the same dudes are making decisions at some of the old classic places and the modern ones.....

don't you think golf is the same way as the wine and the cigar....I know it is ;D ;D ;D

  Mike,

  Let's play 18 have a glass and burn one.

  Anthony


Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Anthony,

This is a rhetorical question of course. ;D  But is Greene Vardiman Black a better dentist than you?

More innovative?  Maybe.  But a "better" dentist.  I think not.



  Ben,

  Excactly.... My point. Shouldn't the modern courses be ranked higher than the old ones?

  Anthony



Anthony,

For the record, I agree whole heartedly.  I will never understand the value that ESPN places on ranking past NCAA football teams.  If the 1945 Army Black Knights (with Blanchard and Davis) played the 2009 University of Alabama Crimson Tide; it would be like me trying to duke it out with Tiger Woods.  Seriously.  That's the gap that exists.  And IMHO, the same gap exists with GCA's.  

I think many miss the point that these classic courses have had DECADES to be perfected, matured and refined.  Think about that for a second.  I really think that only the new designers could create places like Pac Dunes and Friar's Head.  What's more.  I think those two courses will be considered "better" in 80 years than Cypress Point or Pine Valley.

This isn't to say that the classic work isn't absolutely life changing.  It is.  The two or three top 30 ODG's I have studied are complete masterpieces.  And I need to see more of them.  But it's a different day, with more technology, knowledge, and specialization.  I feel like I could fly circles around some of those WWI guys based on the knowledge I have about vectors, energy states, and turn circle geometry.  I am sure some of the modern archies feel the same way.

  
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 12:43:26 AM by Ben Sims »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
ok..when are you coming down?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Anthony Gray

Anthony,

It's more than tradition, the ODGs were the Pioneers and they get extra points, forever, just for being there.

They also get a point or two just for being dead.

They probably get at least one more point for holding the 'record' for such a long time, too. There wasn't much of anything built in the 50 or so years after their era to rival what they did.

  Jim,

  Nice points. But even with the extra points, are the older courses better from a design standpoint? The original Redan is nowhere near the quality of its copies.

  Anthony



Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Mike & Anthony,

I'll be in town the week of Thanksgiving to see the Dawgs beat up on the Nerdz of North Avenue.  We should play golf then.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Anthony,
To some degree I'd say you're talking to the wrong guy. I'm always amazed at how talented architect's can take the very limited palette they have to work with and continue to pump out quality courses.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike & Anthony,

I'll be in town the week of Thanksgiving to see the Dawgs beat up on the Nerdz of North Avenue.  We should play golf then.

set it up....but I am going to see the nerds.....we can play here.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Anthony Gray

Anthony,

This is a rhetorical question of course. ;D  But is Greene Vardiman Black a better dentist than you?

More innovative?  Maybe.  But a "better" dentist.  I think not.



   Ben,

  Nice call young man. By the way I have an autograghed TIME magazine of Mr Inside and Mr Outside in my office. I have talked to Doc on the phone personaly............Hope to goat ranch with you next year. Doc lives in San Antonio and is a retired pilot.


  Anthony






  Ben,

  Excactly.... My point. Shouldn't the modern courses be ranked higher than the old ones?

  Anthony



Anthony,

For the record, I agree whole heartedly.  I will never understand the value that ESPN places on ranking past NCAA football teams.  If the 1945 Army Black Knights (with Blanchard and Davis) played the 2009 University of Alabama Crimson Tide; it would be like me trying to duke it out with Tiger Woods.  Seriously.  That's the gap that exists.  And IMHO, the same gap exists with GCA's.  

I think many miss the point that these classic courses have had DECADES to be perfected, matured and refined.  Think about that for a second.  I really think that only the new designers could create places like Pac Dunes and Friar's Head.  What's more.  I think those two courses will be considered "better" in 80 years than Cypress Point or Pine Valley.

This isn't to say that the classic work isn't absolutely life changing.  It is.  The two or three top 30 ODG's I have studied are complete masterpieces.  And I need to see more of them.  But it's a different day, with more technology, knowledge, and specialization.  I feel like I could fly circles around some of those WWI guys based on the knowledge I have about vectors, energy states, and turn circle geometry.  I am sure some of the modern archies feel the same way.

  

Anthony Gray



  Ben,

  I have spoken to Doc Blanchard on the phone and have an autograghed TIME magazine of Mr Inside and Mr Outside in my office. Doc is a retired pilot in San Antonio. Hope to play the goat ranch with you.

  Anthony


Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
 Just a thought.....
 
  Geoff Shackleford and David Stam have more knowledge about golf course architecture than CBM or The Good Doctor had when they were designing their Top 30 courses. So why are the older courses ranked better? Are THey better? Why? Why don't the new courses break in?


They don't have more knowledge.
They've seen more courses and have been exposed to more architecture.
They have more hurdles and fewer chances too.
How many architects today were descendents of CBM & MacK?
All of that knowledge didn't get passed down - even if it could.
Go read Gladwell's newest book for some good examples of opportunity costs and circumstances.

And what Mike said - the work of the ODGs sure has gotten better over the last 20-50 years.

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Anthony Gray

 Just a thought.....
 
  Geoff Shackleford and David Stam have more knowledge about golf course architecture than CBM or The Good Doctor had when they were designing their Top 30 courses. So why are the older courses ranked better? Are THey better? Why? Why don't the new courses break in?


They don't have more knowledge.
They've seen more courses and have been exposed to more architecture.
They have more hurdles and fewer chances too.
How many architects today were descendents of CBM & MacK?
All of that knowledge didn't get passed down - even if it could.
Go read Gladwell's newest book for some good examples of opportunity costs and circumstances.

And what Mike said - the work of the ODGs sure has gotten better over the last 20-50 years.

Cheers

  Mike,

  As an architect that has more training and better studied than a medical doctor 90 years ago, could you given a peach orchard produce a course better than Augusta National?

  Anthony


Phil_the_Author

Anthony,

Your basic question revolves around a system of course rankings that began in the late 1970's. Why is this important? It isn't as if there were annual magazine course rankings since the teens, with Pine Valley "Breaking Into the TOP TEN" at its opening; no it is a system that was devised and applied by the relatively modern golfer and is still applied by today's "golf experts."

The real question then should be WHY do modern players believe that the great courses of the "Golden Age" top have been far and away better than contemporary designs?

I think the answer lay in the subtlety of the system of the Golf Clubs that we have developed since the game was first introduced in America. Consider, what is the single greatest advantage AND difference that the Golden Age clubs had over today's? The FOUNDING MEMBERSHIPS!

When the original 1890s Baltusrol course was being replaced in 1918-22 with two new ones, Tilly was given an unlimited budget and left alone. The same thing for Winged Foot right after that and a number of his other great courses. Look at those who entrusted CB Macdonald to simply create the best course possible in hopes that in EXPECTATION that NGLA would be the greatest course in the world; not America but the WORLD.

The Amateur architects had the same lofty goals and also the same ability economically to attempt the same challenge. Crump at Pine Valley, Fownes at Oakmont, the men of Merion; all trusted and expected those that their courses would be recognized as THE course.

Today's new golf club founding memberships that desire and can afford the same potential quality in course design expect the same thing, but it is in the process of bringing it about that the differences lie, for a Tillinghast, a Ross, a Mackenzie, had a greater freedom to create then than a Doak, a Coore & Crenshaw, and a Mike Young do today.

Today's great architects are hampered by their owners desires as crafted by their personal visions of what that should look like. The results being outstanding golf courses that lack that last spark of... transcendent inspirational genius. Look at the difference in how two courses have come into being to highlight what I mean. Both clubs were built with the idea that the land for the overall project would be used for two different things; golf course and housing.

Longshadow Golf Club... Mike Young will tell you that his choice of routing and hole locations were limited by the needs of future home sites; in other words, the housing parcels came first.

Merion Golf Club... Here we have the same thing except that the land to be used for the golf club was given PREFERENCE over that for the future house plots. Better land ALWAYS produces a better quality course.

That is just one of the modern interfering factors that the great golf architects of today face that those in the "Golden Age" did not. It is those differences that have brought about an ability for exclusivity of use that created a natural course ranking system before anything formal was put on paper, for otherwise why is ACCESS such an issue for those who desire to play exclusive clubs?

Our desire to enjoy what we are not allowed to simply because of who and where we are instills a subconscious recognition in us that the object of our desire MUST be better. Be honest with yourself and make a list of the top 25 courses that you would love to play. What is the reality that you will actually be able to do so? Yet when that rarest of privileges happen and you find yourself walking the rolling seaside links of Shinnecock or within the quiet trees of Pine Valley or enter the grounds of the LACC, do you honestly think that the course won't meet up with the mental expectations to which you have imbued them?

High expectations lead to the greatest disappointments, but more often they also lead to the strongest affirmations of what was already believed.

Despite all of that, Anthony, take a careful look at the list of the top 20 golf courses in America and the Top 30 in the world. Consider how many courses are of a more recent vintage than the greatest of the ODG's. In fact, isn't there a course in Las Vegas that was built by a casino owner whose desire and funding to see the best course in the world built on his property give free reign to an architect whose creation would DEBUT in Golf Digest's Top Ten?

To me, within desire, funding and freedom lay the answer to your question...

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
There are many good golf courses and golf architects in both periods, however if given one choice I'd pick the architects prior to WWII in a second, and I suspect most golf architects today would do the same thing. Some of the reasons why those courses are superior.

*better sites to choose from
*no environmental issues to work around
*less pressure from real estate ventures
*no need to accommodate golf carts
*generally more natural, less reliance on earth moving
*most did not have a landscape architecture background
*heavily influenced by the classic links courses

Jim Nugent

Is Andy Warhol better than DaVinci?

Are modern composers better than Beethoven?  Were Sibelius or Copland better than Beethoven? 

Hard to compare.  But I'm not sure it's true that in art, more recent is necessarily better.  And a college education means pretty much nothing. 

   




Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
I would say that the very best of today's architects are as good or better than the old guys, but it's a pretty small group we're talking about.  Is the average course built today better? no.  Also, it's very hard when you're talking about rankings to seperate history and old-school charm from an impartial critique of architecture.  It's much safer to rank a course highly when it's 90 years old, held several important majors, and stood the test of time than to go out on a limb on a new course...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0


Bill, what classification would you give the sites that the Bandon courses, Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Chambers Bay, Sebonack, Bulls Bay, Arcadia Bluffs, Kinglsey, Kinloch, Erin Hills, Hidden Creek, Tallgrass, Rustic Canyon, Cuscowilla, Tobacco Road, Whistling Straits, Chechessee, Friars Head, Inniscrone, Kapalua, Lost Dunes, Rock Creek, etc, occupy, compared to what the golden age architects had to work with?


David,

Those are pretty good sites. Too bad most of them are in places where no PEOPLE live :)

The ODG's probably get more fame and high rankings (the original poster's question) because places like Merion, Winged Foot, Cypress etal were built on great sites near major metropolitan areas, places the YLG's rarely get to work because the land is all gone.









[/quote]
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 09:56:04 AM by Bill Brightly »

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
BB,

I'm sure it's been said before, but you win the "best picture below your name" award by a landslide.....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
so this thread is still going strong this morning?

1-there is no answer to the question....just a good argument?  But if any practicing architect doesn't think he is better than the ODG's..he needs to quit...
2- the ODG's got into the business because of a passion for golf....today that is not necessarily true....I think there is a huge nerd factor in the business today....there is a much more anal-ality(new word)....and many of these guys think it is "evil" or something to be able to sell a project....and that's what these ODG's all did well.....
CAUTION: none of the above comments were meant toward anyone or any particular work....everybody knows what I mean.... 8)
NERD FIGHT  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0G0nq3o_mo
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Anthony Gray



  Mike,

  I heard George Bush use anal-ality once.

  Anthony


David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0

  David Stamm,

  Respectfully......Don't you have more knowledge than CBM had 100 years ago? Then why can't you build a course that ranks higher than NGLA? You and CBM are both students of the game. Does tradition play too big a part in the rankings?  

 Curious,

  Anthony




No, I don't have more knowledge than CBM, despite the rumors. ;D I'm not sure what MY abilities have to do w/ the conversation, I'm not a practicing architect. I have not traveled the across the Atlantic to study courses so I could bring back ideas to implement on the ground here, hell, I haven't even PLAYED over there. And I didn't spend time with Melvyn's family getting an education in golf while going to school in St Andrews. ;)  I know what I like in courses, and I know when I see architecture that I feel is good, and, poor. And BTW, Geoff has forgotten more than I know, or think I know.


Mike, weren't Raynor and Banks disciples of CBM? Did not AM have an infleunce on Maxwell, Hunter, Egan, Russell and Fleming?
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
 Just a thought.....
 
Geoff Shackleford and David Stam have more knowledge about golf course architecture than CBM or The Good Doctor had when they were designing their Top 30 courses.
Anthony

Anthony, that's a pretty casual thought.  Perhaps there's a significant distinction between knowing about architecture versus knowing architecture.  Ask yourself - among the four gentlemen mentioned, who studied who?

Kindest regards,

Mike

Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Anthony Gray

 Just a thought.....
 
Geoff Shackleford and David Stam have more knowledge about golf course architecture than CBM or The Good Doctor had when they were designing their Top 30 courses.
Anthony

Anthony, that's a pretty casual thought.  Perhaps there's a significant distinction between knowing about architecture versus knowing architecture.  Ask yourself - among the four gentlemen mentioned, who studied who?

Kindest regards,

Mike



  Bogey,

  Remember your thread on renovating The Eden Course? I would think that from your traveling you could do it.

  Anthony


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bill B.

I think the point is....there isn't a lack of good sites, there is only a lack of good sites with convient locations.

Yes people have to travel more to get to a Bandon, or Ballyneal, or a Sand Hills...but even good sites near people are still available.  Think Sebonac, Friars Head, Chambers Bay, etc.