Interested in opinions on The Biarritz style at Yale and Fishers

[DMoriarty]

To hopefully get us back on track . . .

Forget about the carry over the chasm for a minute.   Given the early photo of Piping Rock, and the plan of Westhampton, and the plasticine of the Biarritz at the Lido, and given CBM's and H.J. Whigham's early descriptions of a hog's back, (CBM wrote "sharp hog back") what do you guys think the original green area (including the first plateau and/or hogback) looked like.   

Aside: Above TEPaul stated that the bunker short of the first plateau was always present on the 9th at Piping Rock and that what looks to be part of the hogback was actually the lip of the bunker.   It sure doesn't look like the lip of a bunker to me for a number of reasons.   Was there always a bunker there?  In a photo I have seen from about 40 years ago, there was no fronting bunker.  If it was there, when did they do away with the bunker?  Does anyone have any early photos of the hole showing the bunker? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave Moriarty,

A while back, Jamie Slonis used a company that has vintage photos.
It was on a thread about Pine Valley, probably the 12th hole.
Certain locations in the country didn't have the chronological photos available, but, I would imagine that western LI would.

That might be a good source for you.

[TEPaul]

"Aside: Above TEPaul stated that the bunker short of the first plateau was always present on the 9th at Piping Rock and that what looks to be part of the hogback was actually the lip of the bunker.   It sure doesn't look like the lip of a bunker to me for a number of reasons.   Was there always a bunker there?  In a photo I have seen from about 40 years ago, there was no fronting bunker.  If it was there, when did they do away with the bunker?  Does anyone have any early photos of the hole showing the bunker?"


If you trust George Bahto on these kinds of things why don't you ask him about that either on this DG or offline? I asked him on the phone the other day even though I was out on the 9th at Piping Rock this year looking at other things to do with its architecture.   

[George_Bahto]

1950:   

[Ari Techner]

To clarify my post earlier in this thread;
I did not mean to say that LM was the only Biarritz that I have played where the front part was not green.  There are quite a few others that are this way obviously. 
What I was saying is LM's Biarritz is the only one I have played where a running shot that lands short of the green and even short of the swale will actually run up onto the green.  The strategy on most Biarritzes would be to just fire it all the way back to the pin and have the ball stop.  The Biarritz at LM will not do this.  Balls that land on the green will normally bound forward and end up long.  To hold the green you pretty much need to hit a low runner that runs through the swale and onto the green.  That as I understand it was the original design intent of the hole and is a shot that has been lost on most of these holes under current conditions.

[TEPaul]

That's a pretty small 1950 aerial, Georgie, but that cross-bunker before the fairway before the swale is definitely there in 1950!   

[TEPaul]

Hey, Ari, for starters, can we all know what exactly you mean when you said "LM?"


Belay that---I see you were talking about Lookout Mountain. I've never seen that one but if one can land the ball short of the swale (best with a low shot) and run the ball into and and out of the swale at LM then Piping Rock's biarritz works the same way as Lookout Mountain. And again, there is no hogsback feature on the fairway before the swale at Piping Rock----never has been.

Fox Chapel's biarritz works the same way as Piping's, as does The Creek's. FC and The Creek now have green space before the swale. Piping doesn't. Neither Fox Chapel nor The Creek have any kind of hogsback feature on them----never have.

[TEPaul]

I'm not exactly sure what hole post #200 is referring to but if it's Piping Rock's biarritz, the perpindicular dark green area one can see in the 1913 photo on this thread is the top of a bunker that was before that approximately 40 yard long fairway before the swale. That dark green area is not some hogsback feature of that fairway before the swale----again it is the top or front face of a bunker (even though in that very early photo it may not have had sand in it as it appears the bunker to the left of the green does not either at that early time (Piping opened for play in 1913---the year of that photo)).

[Donnie Beck]

here is a portion of a C Banks blueprint showing the two deflection "mounds" ("spines") on the frontal section

I'd love to hear from anyone who still has some semblance of them on the Biarritz green

- perhaps Fishers Island? Donnie Beck??

George,


Fishers definitely has those exact deflection "mounds" The photo flattens them out but I would guess that they are close to 2 ½’ high.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Donnie,

It's unfortunate that the camera can't pick up contouring as well as the eye can.

One of the things I love about CBM/SR/CB greensites is the scale and depth of the adjacent bunkers.

They are so dramatic when viewed from the tee or DZ.

Who dares play to a hole located at the perimeter of the green ?

What a great challenge, mentally and physically.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

That FI biarritz really is a great one and fairly atypical of most of the rest of the CBM/Raynor biarritzes I've ever seen or played. I guess I've played FI more than 50 times in my life and my experience is you can play the ball onto about 85-90% of the width of that fairway before the swale and the ball will not deflect off that fairway. One thing it definitely ain't is a "hogs-back" feature! I don't deny that the likes of Moriarty or MacWood or Kennedy might try to tell you it's a hogsback feature or hogsback concept as they parse the shit out of some statement that CBM or Travis or Whigam once said about something somewhere but what do they really know since they've probably never even seen Piping Rock or FI or had any experience with that particular shot? 

[Jim_Kennedy]

TEP,
You've been shown proof of the existence of these spines and it has already been accepted that calling them hogbacks was not the best description, but they are spiny ridges nonetheless.
I notice that you chose to attack DM, TMac and myself,  and yet the two men who showed you the proof of the existence of these spines, George, the foremost expert on all things CBM, and Donnie, the superintendent at FI, seem to be immune from your vitriolic and curse laden rants. I wonder why that is? 

You reveal your true self in every one of these attacks. You're getting smaller and smaller and smaller.....

[Bradley Anderson]

Those deflection spines that are depicted in the Westhampton blueprint are evident in the PR photo below. Apparently the spines were a standard feature, or option (call it what you will) of the biarritz, even in it's earliest version here. If you magnify your screen to 150% you can clearly see a 6 to 18" spine running parallel to the edges of the fairway in front of the trough. Those would definitely deflect balls in to the flanking bunkers if you where on the outside of them. However they would have also directed balls to the center of the trough if you were inside of them. Very quirky.

In my opinion the spine option, and the top bunker in front of the fairway are superfluous to the biarritz hole.

I wonder if George can comment as to whether or not those options were deemed unnecessary by CBM/Raynor over time?

[Bradley Anderson]

TEP,
You've been shown proof of the existence of these spines and it has already been accepted that calling them hogbacks was not the best description, but they are spiny ridges nonetheless.
I notice that you chose to attack DM, TMac and myself,  and yet the two men who showed you the proof of the existence of these spines, George, the foremost expert on all things CBM, and Donnie, the superintendent at FI, seem to be immune from your vitriolic and curse laden rants. I wonder why that is?  :PYou reveal your true self in every one of these attacks. You're getting smaller and smaller and smaller.....

Jim,

I don't think Tom Paul has been too rough on you on here.

[Jim_Kennedy]

No problem Jim Kennedy; as you know I have no idea who the hell you are or where you're coming from and I really don't care what you think; haven't for a while now due to the posts you've put on here for quite some time both to me and in response to things I've said on here about architecture which weren't to you and had nothing to do with you. I have no hesitation in telling you I think you are a piece of shit and a truly inconsequential and petty little piece of shit at that.

Brad,
The above is from an ongoing thread started by Mac Plumart, and it's a typical Tom Paul attack, the kind of baloney that he continues to heap on anyone who he thinks is questioning his 'authority'.
This is the same type of approach he has taken in a slew of nasty personal messages that he has sent to me. When I asked him to stop sending me such abusive messages he said he was just going to keep on doing it in public. It seems he is true to his word.

The above exemplifies his tactics. The choice is yours as to whether or not they are those of a foul mouthed bully or not. I know what I believe.

[DMoriarty]

Bradley, I noticed that as well, although I am not sure we can conclude they were parallel throughout that first area. 

As for your continued defense of TEPaul's constant abhorrent behavior, might I suggest that you are letting your friendship get in the way of a realistic assessment of what is obviously ongoing?

[TEPaul]

Brad:

Obviously you have a real interest in that Piping biarritz and how it's designed and works in play. I'll email you about it as the only way to truly understand how a hole like that works and the nuances of how it works in play is to hit lots of shots on it. I've done that including a whole lot of the so-called biarritz shots (landing in on the fairway and running it through the swale) as well as watching others over the years. I'll tell you in detail how the shots work pretty much across the width of that fairway.  I see no point in discussing something like this on here anymore or posting on this website anymore with some of the people on here and you know who they are. I think you can explain it them when you have the details. Stay in touch. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

In my opinion the spine option, and the top bunker in front of the fairway are superfluous to the biarritz hole.


Brad, Why do you say that ?

The Biarritz, at its inception and even today, accomodates running shots.

Why would deflective spines, deliberately constructed by the architect, be superfluous to the play of the hole ?

[Bradley Anderson]

In my opinion the spine option, and the top bunker in front of the fairway are superfluous to the biarritz hole.

Brad, Why do you say that ?
The Biarritz, at its inception and even today, accomodates running shots.
Why would deflective spines, deliberately constructed by the architect, be superfluous to the play of the hole ?

Patrick,

I think there is too much going on with the Piping Rock version in the photo. But let me say it differently - there is more going on there than there needs to be. The running shot doesn't need to be caught by that top bunker if it is a tad too low, nor does it need to be deflected with the spines if it is slight left or right of the middle section of the fairway. The trough, combined with the great length of the hole, is enough to make it a great hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad,

We often speak of a hole's length in the context of the back or championship tees, completely ignoring that the hole has other tees which make the hole play much shorter.

This myopic vision tends to prevent many from viewing architecture and the challenge a golfer faces, from anywhere but the back/championship tees.

You have to examine the features and the playing challenge, not from the back/championship tees, where a small percentage of the membership plays, but, from the other tees where the vast majority of the members play.

[Bradley Anderson]

Patrick,

A true biarritz hole only has one tee. It was the long one shotter in the Mac/Raynor collection. The clubs that added extra tees to their biarritz's might as well have filled in the trough while they were at it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

A true biarritz hole only has one tee. It was the long one shotter in the Mac/Raynor collection. The clubs that added extra tees to their biarritz's might as well have filled in the trough while they were at it.

I don't believe that your statement is accurate.

How were women expected to complete their rounds, or, were those courses with a Biarritz, 17 hole courses for women ?[/b]

[George_Bahto]

Pat: I have a huge collection of original Macdonald / Raynor scorecards and I doubt if there is even one Biarrtiz hole that has more than one tee - the longest tee. I can't find even one that had an alternate (or secondary) tee. Looks like if you couldn't get there   -  too bad on you!!

I can substantiate this.

I doubt if they were thinking about women's tees at the time - how many women were playing the courses in the teens and twenties?

[TEPaul]

"......how many women were playing the courses in the teens and twenties?"


Georgie Boy:

What a truly remarkable statement you just made there! Are you serious? That kind of thing isn't even remotely debatable; it is completely trackable and documentable. It's not even a matter of how many----it's a matter of the fact that they were and probably a whole lot earlier than you and others apparently realize. Actually, the zeal of women's golf, both tournament and otherwise in this country, probably came close to if not outstripped the men in some clubs and regions.

Furthermore, to get a ball over that bunker at Piping Rock from the front of the fairly long men's tee was probably right around 100 yards or less. As you know, that fairly flat fairway was probably 40-50 yards long before the swale.

[JESII]

Tom,

Care to ballpark what percentage of women could carry the ball 100 yards in 1920?

I'd bet less than 50% today, probably less than 20% then...

The implications of that are what interest me in this debate...not specifically about women, but about the very strict and stringent shot demand HJ Wigham described in his quote about the playability of the Biarritz.