[RSLivingston_III]

Thanks George.
When I first heard about Mid-Oceans version it was described as the best (at that time) because of the way the bunkering was done. It has just stuck with me all this time and now I have a place to get a valid opinion.
Gotta luv this site.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Ari,
Donnie Beck mentioned earlier on this thread that FI diesn't mow the front of their Biarritz at green height."

Who on here even knows the so-called front section of FI's biarritz that well?

Of any of the Macdonald/Raynor biarritzes that one is far more akin to what the actual chasm hole of Le Phare in Biarritz was probably all about than any other Macdonald/Raynor biarritz I have ever seen or am familiar with. The swale on that one is nowhere near as abrupt or prominent compared to all the other biarritzes and frankly whatever one would conider a front section on FI's biarritz is unpinnable anyway because its grade is too steep to be pinable and I can pretty much confirm that having spoken once with Donnie Beck about it.

TEPaul,

All Biarritz's are not created equal.

One must consider the topography that the hole resides on.

At FI, the slope of the area fronting the trough differs from that at Piping Rock.

Each Biarritz is unique rather than monolithic.

The putting surface at FI is very unique.

Some Biarritz's have internal countouring in the back tier, like the one that Jim Kennedy posted or the 13th at The Knoll

Piping Rock's, Mountain Lake's and The Creek's have fairly flat putting surfaces.

As to the area of the trough, some are shallow, some are deep and some are medium.

The area fronting the trough is largely dependent upon the terrain.
In some cases it's flat, in others it's sloped.
Where it's sloped, it's extremely doubtful that that area is mowed to putting surface.

I think it's almost critical that the area fronting the trough and the trough, if not mowed to putting surface height, should be mowed to fairway height or tighter, since that will accomodate a running shot more efficiently.

Another factor is the differential in elevation between the tee and the green.

Yale has an elevated tee and a lower green.
While FI has an elevated tee, the green is elevated even higher.
Others, like Mountain Lake, have little in the way of a differential.

The elevation differential limits the options of play.
ie, at Mountain Lake you can hit a low running shot into any tier or the trough.
That luxury doesn't exist at Yale or FI.

Interestingly enough, I thought the green at FI reminded me a little of the green on the 1st at Yale.
They seem to be two greens in one.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Here is a 1930s aerial of Tamarack's Biarritz. You can see the steep drop off on the side, the narrowed run-up in front, the long flanking bunkers and the three bunkers on the line between the tee and the green. Much of the flankers are gone in a modern aerial view, and so are two of the fronting bunkers. 

Jim Kennedy,

Is it possible that the trough and front tier are mowed at putting surface height ?

Remember, the darker look could be the angle of the sun on a sloping front tier and trough ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I think, out of sheer luck, that you identified the principle reason that many flanking and surrounding bunkers were eliminated or divided, THE CART AND THE ANGLE OF APPROACH AND EXIT.

David Moriarty,

With respect to plasticine models, we shouldn't assume that the plasticine model is representative of what was put into the ground.

The 12th at NGLA is a perfect example.

I think it's also incorrect to take Whigham literally in the context that the concept of a Biarritz, or any template, didn't evolve or morph over time.

In my limited experience of examining templates, there's no "static" or fixed master mold, where the features are congruent. 
Similar in general terms ?  Yes, but, with enough deviation that the hole is unique in its own right..
A great number of "templates" vary greatly, yet they still maintain their general concept.

I've always been fascinated by the 6th green at Piping Rock and the 17th green at Westhampton.
Especially the treatment at the back section of the green.

 

[Niall C]

Niall,

Thanks for the description of the 4th at Silloth on Solway.  Looks like fun.  On their website they call it the Mill; when was it called the Biarritz?

Here is a photo from Ran's review. . .


Are you saying the swale is the area where the pin is located?

David

It has never been called the Biarritz as far as I know but then the original hole at Biarritz wasn't called the "Biarritz" (assuming that it is the original of course, and not a version of a previous hole). "The Mill" is a reference to the structure which forms the backdrop when you approach the green.

The "swale" that goes through the green is mild compared to the CBM/Raynor swales (I'm saying that from what I've seen on here as I haven't played any of the US ones) but then its an earlier version (and by another designer) before features became exaggerated in subsequent versions (thats a theory on my part).

Its interesting point about naming holes as I'm not sure that UK golfers are that much into the history and have much idea about model holes. For instance the 9th at Silloth is clearly another Postage Stamp, not an exact replica, but you can still clearly see the parentage (nb - Willie Fernie visited Silloth to consult in 1912) but isn't referred to as the Postage Stamp.

Unfortunately I do't have any pics but have made a mental point to take some next time I'm down.

Tom P

See my answers to Dave above. I don't know why Ran referred to it as being like PV no. 1 as I've never played there but as I said in my earlier post, the hole was changed at the suggestion of Dr MacKenzie when 150 yards were added and it turned into a slight dogleg.

We can still see where the original tee is (and indeed we still have a plan) and assuming all the other features haven't changed appreciabley then for my money it is definitely from the Biarritz family if not the CBM side of the family.

Niall

ps. I really will need to learn how to post pics/graphics

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Even though I've been very familiar with all the biarritzes you mentioned except Yale's for many years thanks anyway for that comprehensive explanation. I'm sure it will help others who really aren't aware of those holes understand them better.


"TEPaul,
I think, out of sheer luck, that you identified the principle reason that many flanking and surrounding bunkers were eliminated or divided, THE CART AND THE ANGLE OF APPROACH AND EXIT."


Yeah, thanks, Pat, I guess that could be considered a really good and really lucky guess on my part, huh?  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
I was also looking at the sharply defined front edge of the darkly shaded area when making my guess, but, there are other areas of the photo that have darker shades of grass too, while being on the same plane. So yes, it's possible.

[TEPaul]

Niall:

Thanks for that explanation on your last post, particularly when you mention that the hole at Silloth may come from the same biarritz family.

My problem with that is what is meant by the biarritz family? Is it the very long carry over something like that inlet of the Bay of Biscay on that "Chasm" hole at Le Phare in Biarritz France which may not have had any prominent swale (sort of like FI's Biarritz) or is it essentially the pretty prominent and abrupt swale on most all the Macdonald/Raynor biarritz holes that are constructed in fairly level areas?

There is a big difference to me and if we start just melding all these vast architectural differences and distinctions into the same mold or family I think after a while we begin to lose most of the interest in all this which actually is those various architectural differeneces and distinctions.

If we push that kind of thing too far after a while most everything will be into a sort of "compare" context and we will begin to lose the more important "constrast" context of golf course architecture.

[TEPaul]

"With respect to plasticine models, we shouldn't assume that the plasticine model is representative of what was put into the ground.
The 12th at NGLA is a perfect example."


Pat:

That is very true. There is quite a bit about the way that original cape hole and green (and its surrounds) was compared to that plasticine model of that original hole. For instance, there were a few interesting bunkers in front of that green (on a direct line from tee to green) that do not appear on the plasticine model of that hole.


I think most of those plasticine models (of NGLA and The Lido) were probably done after the fact for perhaps decorative and display purposes but I can't be sure of that.

And I completely agree with you in what you said to Moriarty in your post #78. I think his tendency with these kinds of things---templates, architectural concepts etc, etc, is and has always been to sort of torture and force the important distinctions and differences into some similar mold or concept so as to be able to continue to assign the attribution of them to Macdonald and Whigam somehow. That kind of attempt just works toward the premises and conclusion of that controversial essay he wrote about Merion that most everyone seems to view, at this point, as dangerously speculative and pretty specious because of it.

But ultimately there is probably nothing wrong with that----because in the process of debating all these architectural details and differences and distinctions I think we have seen a good deal more of what Wilson and his committee actually did in the beginning at Merion East.

[JESII]

Can I quote you on that?  

David,

You can quote anything you like.


Remember though, that the most interesting part to me is it does not seem any in the CBM family built a Biarritz that fits the playability description.


"Whigham was envisioning balls landing on the hog's back and running through the dip."

I disagree completely, please reread and/or post that description.

The Hogsback was intended to steer balls to the side hazards. The point was to carry the hogsback with a controlled low shot (the push shot) that would then run up the bank.

[JESII]

Whigham:
"There is a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards which is new to this country and is one of the best one-shot holes in existence. There is a hog's back extending to within thirty yards of the green and a dip between the hog's back and the green. Under normal conditions the hole has to be played with what is now known as the push shot, a low ball with plenty of run, which will land short of the dip and run through it on to the green. A drive with a longer carry is apt to land in the dip and stay there. But the push shot must be very straight otherwise it will land on one side or the other of the hog's back and break off into a bunker. This is the ninth hole at Piping Rock.''


I was wrong...it says the ball is to land short of the dip, which means on the hogsback...that's not possible at Merion (and I doubt ever was).

[TEPaul]

Sully:

Well, I'll be damned. So Whigam in that description you just posted was talking about a "hogs-back" on that portion of Piping Rock's biarritz before the swale was he?

Well, who the hell am I question H.J. Whigam but I have a very good photo from the tee on that hole from the year that course opened (1913) and I only grew up on that course. It's very clear to see that there's a small mound at the far right side of that plateau fairway area that looks to be less than a foot high--but it's probably less than 2% of that entire area. That front section fairway area is probably 30 yards long and about 25-30 yards wide and there's some very gentle undulations in that area (both lightly convex and concave) but that entire area is essentially a flat plateau fairway area and it is definitely no "hogs-back" like the tee shot area of the fairway of NGLA's 5th hole is hog-backed (By the way, NLGA's 5th hole is named "Hogsback" because if your tee shot lands on about the left half of that really wide fairway it might filter left all the way off the fairway).

The other thing to note is that hole (Piping Rock's Biarritz (9th) is nothing at all like Merion's 17th for a whole host of reasons!

PS:
As I noted some time ago on this website that particular hole is where I (with a clinic of about ten kids) learned how to play the classic run-up "Biarritz shot" back in the early 1950s as about a 8-10 year old from Piping's wonderful old teaching pro, Spence (Spencer Corte)! He hit that shot numerous times for us as well as all the rest of us kids did and believe me unless the shot landed within a few yards of either side of that fairway area the ball definitely would run into that swale and right up onto the green if it had what they all called back then the proper "weight." Furthermore, I've only played that course and hole hundreds of times over the last five decades with hundreds of people so what the hell do I know about it.  

[JESII]

The truth is Tom, I don't know what to make of any of it.

Reading the description of how to play these holes interests me but the work in the ground never seems to quite stack up.

I personally don't care if Merion #17 was supposed to be a Biarritz or not, nor do I care if CBM picked the spot or Hugh Wilson took the playability description (such as Wigham's) and saw that it fit this particular location.



Maybe we can discuss the different playability considerations when a Biarritz has an abrupt trench like all the ones you and I have seen compared to the "30 yard dip" in Wigham's definition.

[TEPaul]

"The truth is Tom, I don't know what to make of any of it."


Sully:

I can certainly understand that and particularly if you've never seen Piping Rock or its biarritz hole but I sure as hell have and as of now I sure know what to make of all this, as well as what to make of this comparison ON HERE between this hole and Merion's 17th which I've also known so well for about the last thirty years.

Thank you very much, Jimbo, for posting that description of Whigam's. Until this morning I had no idea what he was talking about and I surely did not know he was talking about Piping Rock's biarritz hole. How ironic is this----eg that I grew up on that golf course?!  

[JESII]

We want some trench stories...

[TEPaul]

"....nor do I care if CBM picked the spot or Hugh Wilson took the playability description (such as Wigham's) and saw that it fit this particular location."


Sully:

I can understand that you don't really care and why but this is just a discussion going on here and as of now it's obvious the chronology just doesn't lie. How could either Macdonald or Whigam be giving Wilson a description of a golf hole (the 9th at Piping Rock) that wouldn't even be conceived of or built for about 2-3 years AFTER CBM and Whigam were meeting with Wilson or MCC at Merion East and talking about its 17th hole that was created in 1911?!

This time I couldn't agree with Moriarty more--------God I love THE FACTS!!    

[TEPaul]

"We want some trench stories..."


Like what kind of trench stories? Like I first got lucky or laid in the trench or swale on Piping Rock's biarritz when I was about ten years old? Unfortunately not. The closest I came to even any thoughts like that was when watching that young Cutting girl hit her first shot on the fairway on the first hole after actually asking me if she could tee it up. I said I guess so but I thought she was just going to roll it, not put a wooden tee under it in the fairway.   But just the way those incredibly long and lithe 11 year old legs of hers (particular in the back) went up into those little very short tennis shorts was pretty awesome for sure when she got up over that ball.

[TEPaul]

"Maybe we can discuss the different playability considerations when a Biarritz has an abrupt trench like all the ones you and I have seen compared to the "30 yard dip" in Wigham's definition."


Sure we can discuss it. Who do you want to discuss it with---just you and me or you and me and Moriarty and a number of others on here whether they really know these holes or not?

Whatta think? You tell me. Do you think he will tell me that despite decades of experience with these two holes that whatever I say about them is just speculation and that he won't accept anything but VERIFIABLE FACTS??  

[JESII]

"....nor do I care if CBM picked the spot or Hugh Wilson took the playability description (such as Wigham's) and saw that it fit this particular location."


Sully:

I can understand that you don't really care and why but this is just a discussion going on here and as of now it's obvious the chronology just doesn't lie. How could either Macdonald or Whigam be giving Wilson a description of a golf hole (the 9th at Piping Rock) that wouldn't even be conceived of or built for about 2-3 years AFTER CBM and Whigam were meeting with Wilson or MCC at Merion East and talking about its 17th hole that was created in 1911?!

This time I couldn't agree with Moriarty more--------God I love THE FACTS!!    

Tom,

The blip in your logic train there is that Wigham could easily have had that playability description in his mind long before he referenced Piping Rock...right? The Piping Rock reference is just a single quote from some undetermined point in time.

[TEPaul]

"Sully:

Anything is possible but you (or you and Moriarty) are apparently using the Whigam's description of Piping Rock's biarritz as a conceptual idea for a golf hole that was created a few years before the hole Whigam was describing was even conceived of or done. Do you deny that?

So if CBM and Whigam had some other hole and that concept Whigam described using PR's biarritz in mind when they were at Merion in 1910 and 1911 why didn't they describe that one?

So maybe you think there is a BLIP in my logic but if that is what you two are using as logic to connect some biarritz concept to Merion's 17th hole I would say there is about a 30 yard long and 25-30 yard wide DIP or TRENCH or MASSIVE SWALE before the actual green surface in your logic!  


"The Piping Rock reference is just a single quote from some undetermined point in time."

That's the beauty of "timelining" Sully with this golf architectural research. It is not some undetermined point in time because Whigam could not be describing a golf hole to Wilson in 1910 or 1911 that would not even be conceived of or built until 2-3 years later----or not unless you know some way that time goes backward that I haven't heard about yet. But since some on here seem to argue the hell out of some of these subjects using this logic of "Well, it's not IMPOSSIBLE, is it?" then who knows---maybe it is possible that time, as we know it, goes backward!   

[JESII]

Tom,

Please see my last sentence in post #85 to gain an understanding of my current thoughts about Merion's 17th fitting Wigham's description of a Biarritz.

Tell me what you think about Wigham's description of the Biarritz, and specifically Piping Rock's #9. How could he describe something so far off what you say was on the ground on opening day? Please leave David and Merion out of this part, I'm curious why Wigham might describe something that just is not there.

[TEPaul]

"Please see my last sentence in post #85 to gain an understanding of my current thoughts about Merion's 17th fitting Wigham's description of a Biarritz."

Gottcha. Thanks. Then we agree. If Moriarty doesn't agree then who cares and what's the point of you continuing to discuss this with him? Just agree to disagree with him----it isn't the first time and I'm pretty sure it won't be the last. As to this fellow Kennedy, I have no idea at all where he's coming from on any of this so what he thinks is sort of irrelevent I guess.

[TEPaul]

"I'm curious why Wigham might describe something that just is not there."


Sully:

I have no idea at all about that so what's the point in speculating? Just look at the 1913 photograph (the year the course opened) as well as the hole today and decide for yourself why Whigam may've described that section of that hole like that.

Frankly, this isn't the first time some of us have wondered about the validity and credibility of some of the things H.J. Whigam wrote, and this is a really good example of why. Obviously the other one was when he mentioned in a eulogy to him twenty nine years after the fact that CBM designed Merion East.

[Jim_Kennedy]

As to this fellow Kennedy, I have no idea at all where he's coming from on any of this so what he thinks is sort of irrelevent I guess. -TEPaul

I have never thought that Merion needed any protection from anyone who wants to examine its history, you somehow think that its reputation cannot survive the questions.
Hopefully you have more respect for Merion than you show on this site.

[Anthony Gray]

George,

Whigham's statement (quoted in your book) makes it clear that the front section wasn't intended to be part of the green, doesn't it?

I posted this on the other thread, but might be more appropriate here.  Below are Merion's 17th, the plasticine model of Lido's Biarritz, and Piping Rock's Biarritz.   The Lido's was listed at 220 yards, while the white line and yellow line of the other two are each 230 yards.   

Look how crazy the first section (the "hogsback") was at the Lido.   

  David,

  Again very well thought out points and photos. But what does the photo in the middle of the shroud of turin have to do with a par three?
 
  Anthony

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