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Mac Plumart

What makes a golf hole the one of the best?
« on: October 21, 2009, 08:34:55 AM »

I’ve mentioned I am here to learn.  With that in mind, here is my first question with a little background prior to the question.

To date, my favorite hole is 18 at Inverness.  For me it all starts with standing on the tee box and looking down that fairway.  You can feel the history and remember all the events that took place on that hole…Tway’s sand shot, Azinger, Norman, etc.  But aside from that, the shortness of the par 4 entices most to consider trying to drive that green.  But seeing all those bunkers usually causes some hesitation.  I, personally, decided against trying to drive it and laid up instead.  However, when I played it the pin was located on the front right hand corner of the green and seeing the slope of that green relative to the pin placement dumbfounded me.  I’d never seen anything like that in my life.  Once again, a decision; go for the pin or not.  If you miss right, you are in “Death Valley”, if you miss short you are in sand, if you hit your spot you won’t hold it.  Key decisions and execution is at a premium.


Another one of my favorite holes is 13 at Kiawah Ocean.  Off the tee you’ve got the option to try to play it safe and simply carry the river/marsh and hit the fairway.  But then you’ve got a lengthy approach with water on the right and bunkers on the left.  Or you could have tried to get closer off the tee and really challenged the river/marsh and risk being wet, but you would have a closer and easier approach.  And the green itself is no push over.


However, here is the kicker.  From my conversations with people about Inverness, 18 is always mentioned as one of the best holes.  But when I talk about Kiawah Ocean, 17 and 18 are usually mentioned…but rarely 13.  I always wonder what I am missing.

So, what distinguishes a hole as one of the best holes rather than a personal favorite?

 Is it beauty?  Is it strategy?  Is it challenge?  Is it history?  Is it play-ability? 

Anyway, I would welcome all thoughts, opinions and comments regarding this topic.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Anthony Gray

Re: What makes a golf hole the one of the best?
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2009, 10:08:36 AM »


  Mac,

  I would start with uniqueness. Many times that means natural features like crossing the hazard on the second shot on Pebble Beach no 8. Or even man made features like the shed and road on the 17th at The Old Course. That is just a start.

  Anthony

 

Dan Herrmann

Re: What makes a golf hole the one of the best?
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2009, 10:37:44 AM »
Key factors for me (in order of personal importance):
Strategic options (I want more than one way to play the hole)
Angles
Risk/Reward
Green surface
How do factors like wind affect the hole
Fun factor
Memorability
History
Beauty


Mark Bourgeois

Re: What makes a golf hole the one of the best?
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2009, 11:04:14 AM »
Mac, the answer ultimately must be personal and therefore in part lies in your post. I suggest you read Mackenzie's comments on ideal holes, particularly the 14th TOC.

Mike Wagner

Re: What makes a golf hole the one of the best?
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2009, 11:28:28 AM »
I would say strategy and how well the hole fits the land.  That being said, my favorite holes change a lot. Kind of like "behind Blue Eyes" is my favorite song....today.  Tomorrow it might be different.  I think the basic criteria will always fit your favorite hole (strategy, is it natural, etc etc.) but it will change - you might play a particular hole well, it might suit YOUR eye...you might absolutely pure a shot that will influence you.  That's what I love, a totally subjective experience with some basic criteria!

V. Kmetz

Re: What makes a golf hole the one of the best?
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2009, 02:07:50 PM »
In the main, I view golf as a game, an amusement, so any superb hole should stimulate that same zest that I have when the Monopoly set is broken out, the chess pieces aligned, the billiard balls racked or the cards being shuffled.  Of course, certain architects idea of amusement is tangent to my own.  I'm sure the makers of Trump National in Bedford Hills thought they were tapping into this spirit, but it turned out to be a Monopoly board with "Go to Jail" every third space or shuffling 8 decks to play one hand of poker.  You're nervous at every turn.  You're feeling is anxiety, not anticipation.  I play golf for the zest of the latter.  I bring enough anxiety to the table, without the designer enhancing any more.

Here are the questions or concepts, that if answered "yes" make it a very worthy hole in my book:

1.  Does the hole, the course, delight - does it have small mystery(s) that are revealed the closer you get to the target.
2.  Is putting a real shot, or is always just a timid small shoulder movement?  I wish greens speeds were topped out at about 9.0 and regularly played in the high 6s.  At these speeds you can have wild, amusing contours and multiple points of finesse and judgement for any particular putt.  One of Yale's recent improved strengths is the execution of somewhat slower speeds that blended with the Raynor contours make for rewarding greenside play.
3.  Does the hole reward both aerial and running shots? Will it favor one or the other based on the day's climate and pin positions?
4.  Not every hole can do this, but I like when some chaotic, natural or engineered feature occurs.  I like little foot high ridges, a large stone 35 yards from the green, a bunker on a hill that almost no one goes into, a small depression that gathers unexpectedly.
5.  A manner to avoid a lost ball, even it means I have to allow/settle for a 5 or 6 on the hole, if I don't want to chance it.
6.  Rough that is not uniform, more clover than strands, patchy and hardpannish here, lush over there.  A 74 yard shot from hardpan is every bit as challenging as a 120 yard shot from lush 2.5 inch grass.
7.  Does it say to me, "You can do this." - That's very subjective, but when so many opinions here return to certain holes over and over again, I think everyone knows the sentiment.
8.  History or tradition doesn't play a massive role in the worth of a hole for me; some holes designed an hour ago can't have it for any of us and history may never draw our attention to an obscure great design.  I like "odes" to the styles of historically significant holes (perhaps why I have taken to the the Mac/Raynor/Banks design features best of all) but even those have to have fluency in the design principle before the history can even play a part.  When you play an American redan, you're in America, not North Berwick, you have little connection to the hundreds of thousands who have/are playing the Scottish original.  I pass by the spot Mickelson blew the Open at 18th WFW three times a week...it's just a spot on a golf course, a spot he should've said "5, " but thought "4" and made "6" - people are doing it every day, it's a tough spot from which to make 4 - history is just re-affirming that, the golf hole is better than what's been done on it.

Those are a few...I may reflect on more

Cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Gib_Papazian

Re: What makes a golf hole the one of the best?
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2009, 04:28:32 PM »
My definition of a great hole is not biased towards a series of intricate options that must be analyzed in accordance with risk v. reward. A REALLY great hole is one in which no golfer - regardless of their ability - can decide after many attempts the best line of play. One that springs to mind is #7 at Pacific Dunes.

For some odd reason - perhaps the stunning topography on the holes that follow - this particular architectural expression seems to get little notice and almost no analysis. I cannot figure out for the life of me how to play the hole without making a six. A great tee shot introduces an impossibly  difficult approach, yet wrestling with whether lay up by threading the needle in the slot or playing crossways over the mounds is as frustrating as determining the exact square root of pi.

All choices introduce varying degrees of discomfort depending on how badly I am hitting the ball that day.

Giving it more thought, I feel the same way about #6. No matter where my ball rests off the tee, the next shot drives me to the prozac bottle. This would be the reason I insist on playing Pac Dunes in the afternoon, after lunch and several margaritas.

#1 at both NGLA and Garden City induce the same brain freeze, but neither hole is as unusual as #6 & #7 at Pac Dunes. So, I'll assert that the definition of a great hole is one where I lack the intellect to explain how best to play it.

Add #12 at St. Andrews.   

   


Adam Clayman

Re: What makes a golf hole the one of the best?
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2009, 05:10:35 PM »
On that vein, a great hole has an almost infinite number of ways that it can be played as well as how it plays. From the natural and physical elements to the psychiatric. The antithesis is therefore a hole where the "way to play" is constant or limited to the elasticity of steel.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 05:12:46 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mark Bourgeois

Re: What makes a golf hole the one of the best?
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2009, 06:37:33 PM »
A&G: that's what Mackenzie wrote about 14 TOC!

Mac Plumart

Re: What makes a golf hole the one of the best?
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2009, 07:02:05 PM »
I must say this is the type of stuff that I need.

I've read "Golf Architecture" by Mackenize, but it slipped my mind about his criteria for a great hole...hopefully that won't happen again.

And some of these others answers...totally awesome stuff. 

One thing though...V. Kmetz, I think you are WAY to smart for me!!!  Maybe I can take away one of two of your wisdom nuggets and remember them...but I don't think my brain can handle all of your recommended thoughts!!

Seriously, great answer as were all of the others...being a member of this site has already been a value add to me and my golfing education!!

I hope I can return the favor in some way some day!

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

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