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Jaeger Kovich

Kiawah v Harbor Town
« on: October 19, 2009, 11:49:09 PM »
So I have been debating which famous South Carolina resort to visit in November. I'm planning on spending 3-4 days and having never played in South Carolina, which would you chose and why?


As a student of gca, who is looking to study as much as play/travel...
Which is a "better example" of Pete Dye's style?
What other courses in the area do I need to see?



Part 2 of this trip has already be planned... 5 days in Pinehurst, NC before heading back north.

Matt_Cohn

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2009, 12:48:05 AM »
I'll let you know when they put Harbor Town on WGT.  ;D

That said, I like "playing" it, and it seems to have plenty of width, although the 15th and 16th approach shots feel really, really similar. Is this the case in real life?

Tommy Williamsen

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2009, 01:34:06 AM »
Jaeger, unless you have access to Long Cove and some other private clubs it is no brainer.  Go to Kiawah.  It has a decent collection of courses.  Try to get on The River Club if you can. I love Harbor Town but would pick the Ocean Course over it.  One thing about the Ocean course as you vary the tees the shots off the tee or to the green change. When I have played it twice on the same day I never play the same tees twice.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

cary lichtenstein

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2009, 02:10:17 AM »
Kiawah is favoring by me and my wife. I always fond Harbor Town wet, tight and commercial. Kiawah  more natural
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Anthony_Nysse

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2009, 06:06:17 AM »
Jaeger, unless you have access to Long Cove and some other private clubs it is no brainer.  Go to Kiawah.  It has a decent collection of courses.  Try to get on The River Club if you can. I love Harbor Town but would pick the Ocean Course over it.  One thing about the Ocean course as you vary the tees the shots off the tee or to the green change. When I have played it twice on the same day I never play the same tees twice.
  Long Cove would be the answer for me, but I spent 5 years there, too. It isnt worth spend 3-4 days on Hilton Head for golf if you dont have access to the private courses like Colleton River, Belfair, Secession, Checheessee and of course, May River, though not private.
  Kiawah Island is the better resort if your looking for 3-4 days of quality golf.

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Matt MacIver

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2009, 07:11:30 AM »
I like the Kiawah golf experience better - as linksy as it gets in the Low Country, the sound, smell, sights.  The wind plays a major role - will help you in the middle straight-away and hurt you at the beginning and end.  Playing two rounds and different tees is a great idea.  I don't think too much of the other four public options but if you can access Watson's private Cassique, it's a winner - I liked it more than Fazio's River. 

That said, if you want to study architecture HarborTown might be more unique.  While there is plenty of width there is a large tree here and there that dictate play off the tee, and it makes recoveries to the green challenging - especially given how small the greens  are.  It helped me understand the value (and fun) of recovery shots while not short-siding yourself.  Also, the par 3s are great. 

Non-gca note: friends who have played both don't mind paying the high price at KI bc of the walk-in-the-park experience.  However it's rare I find someone who felt good about paying the HT rack rate.  Enjoy your decision!

Ben Stephens

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2009, 07:37:29 AM »
I have played Harbour Town - it is very tight - I think its slightly overrated and the condition of the course is at its best just before the Heritage. I have played Kiawah Island on World Golf Tour computer game and must say it looks a lot more fun to play on than Harbour Town. So I would say Kiawah hands down even if I have never been there. But both places would have amazing golf experience. I was told by the pro that Heron Point is just as good as Harbour Town that they may move the Heritage to it.

Anthony_Nysse

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2009, 07:44:14 AM »
I was told by the pro that Heron Point is just as good as Harbour Town that they may move the Heritage to it.

That would be one of the biggest disappointments and poor decisions on tour. The pros LOVE HT and the tournament has been there since 1969. As long at the Tour is coming to HHI, it will be played at HT.

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Anthony Gray

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2009, 08:16:53 AM »


  Kiawah wins this one only because of all the homes around Harbortown.

  Anthony


PCCraig

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2009, 08:25:52 AM »
Kiawah wins this hands down not because of TOC vs. Harbor Town Courses as "main attractions" but because the available public golf is alot better on and around Kiawah Island, you're close to a really cool town (Charleston), and it's just nicer than being in condo/townhouse purgatory that is Hilton Head Island.
H.P.S.

Sean_A

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2009, 08:32:53 AM »
I don't think there is any contest.  Kiawah wins this in a landslide.  The island is nicer and has an outstanding beach.  I prefer the Ocean Course to HTL by quite a margin, but I am not keen on tree congested courses unless they are are exceptionally clever.  Lovely Charleston is down the road.  The one aspect I wonder about is the other courses on Kiawah if one doesn't have access to the privates in and around the island.  They didn't look special to me, well not for what the green fees are. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Dumbarnie, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Joel Zuckerman

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2009, 08:34:53 AM »
Wow!  It's shocking to me that the replies thus far are virtually 100% against Harbour Town in favor of TOC...I would've thought there would be SOME love for this minimalist classic.  Curious if this trend will continue all day...I doubt it, and will be curious to check back this evening to see.

Jaeger Kovich

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2009, 08:37:36 AM »
Thank you for all the advice... So far it looks like Kiawah is the favorite around here... I was leaning in that direction anyways. I'll see what I can do about Long Cove, I've read/heard plenty about the place via Pete Dye stories.

I will probably make my decision tomorrow, a little more research needs to be done.

jonathan_becker

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2009, 08:52:40 AM »
I like them both, giving the edge to Kiawah.  Last time down, I played the Ocean Course on consecutive days and enjoyed the changing winds each day.  The first day we had 10-15 mph winds and scoring was very manageable, but the second day the wind blew 25-35 mph and scoring went out the door!  It's really fun out there battling the elements.

Something to note: depending on your preferences, you can walk and carry your bag at Kiawah.  Harbourtown requires a caddie or a cart with forecaddie.

Andy Troeger

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2009, 09:01:56 AM »
Something to note: depending on your preferences, you can walk and carry your bag at Kiawah.  Harbourtown requires a caddie or a cart with forecaddie.

Haven't been to Kiawah so I can't make a comparison, but I did walk and carry at Harbour Town a couple of years ago. It was an afternoon time in the winter--maybe they just didn't have any caddies available. Those in a cart did not all have forecaddies.

jonathan_becker

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2009, 09:22:05 AM »
Andy,

Not sure about the twilight times at HT, but they changed the policy recently and I was told I couldn't carry my bag during morning or peak hours.  A caddie of some sort was required.  A few of my friends carried their bags in 2006 and were surprised as well to hear about the new caddie policy.

Ben Stephens

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2009, 09:38:46 AM »
I was told by the pro that Heron Point is just as good as Harbour Town that they may move the Heritage to it.

That would be one of the biggest disappointments and poor decisions on tour. The pros LOVE HT and the tournament has been there since 1969. As long at the Tour is coming to HHI, it will be played at HT.

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

Tony,

As you are GCA's HHI expert I would agree with you as its unlikely that the Heritage would be moved to Heron Point - Im just quoting what the guy said back in 2007. In reality it is down to the PGA Tour and organisers who are likely to stick to HT which is the grand old lady of HHI. If that happened it is like moving the Open from the Old Course to the New Course at St Andrews

Cheers

Ben

Andy Troeger

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2009, 09:47:30 AM »
Andy,

Not sure about the twilight times at HT, but they changed the policy recently and I was told I couldn't carry my bag during morning or peak hours.  A caddie of some sort was required.  A few of my friends carried their bags in 2006 and were surprised as well to hear about the new caddie policy.

That has probably been changed since my visit then as well. I think it was early 2007.

Carl Nichols

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2009, 10:07:24 AM »
I prefer the Ocean Course over any course on HHI by a pretty wide margin, and also prefer Kiawah over HHI as a destination, again by a pretty wide margin.  But if you can get on Long Cove -- I don't think it's that hard, especially if you're willing to pay the unaccompanied guest fee -- I would think the Harbourtown/Long Cove combo is, from a historical GCA perspective, as good or better than anything you'd get on Kiawah.  Since that seems to be what you're looking for, and if you can add some of the off-island courses mentioned above, then HHI might be the winner.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 10:09:31 AM by Carl Nichols »

Anthony_Nysse

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2009, 10:42:54 AM »
I prefer the Ocean Course over any course on HHI by a pretty wide margin, and also prefer Kiawah over HHI as a destination, again by a pretty wide margin.  But if you can get on Long Cove -- I don't think it's that hard, especially if you're willing to pay the unaccompanied guest fee -- I would think the Harbourtown/Long Cove combo is, from a historical GCA perspective, as good or better than anything you'd get on Kiawah.  Since that seems to be what you're looking for, and if you can add some of the off-island courses mentioned above, then HHI might be the winner.

If you're trying to play LCC in Novemeber, after it's been overseeded and tee times are given up to water the new seed, it is usually tough to get on. If your'e a rater, that may be different.

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Tom_Doak

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2009, 11:19:13 AM »
The thing about Harbour Town is, forty years later, it's still relevant to the best players in the world.  It remains so because it's tight, yes, but as a matter for study, I would say that's as important as anything.

The other question is whether you are going in order to PLAY or to STUDY.  If it's play, you can play more at Kiawah.  (And you could study Yeamans Hall on your way in or out.)  But if you're going to study, there's much more diversity around Hilton Head, and I would bet that pretty much all of the above listed clubs would allow you to get out and see them if you go through the right channels.

tlavin

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2009, 11:26:46 AM »
Regrettably, I haven't played Kiawah, so I can't comment on its merits except to say that many, many people who know what they're talking about sing its praises to me regularly.

Having said that, I think Harbourtown is terrific.  I also love Long Cove and the nearby privates in Beaufort are great as well.  This might be a situation where you can't go wrong with either choice.

Mark Pritchett

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2009, 12:15:24 PM »
Are we comparing "resorts" or strictly "Ocean Course" vs. "Harbour Town"?


Mike Demetriou

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2009, 12:20:57 PM »
I have played TOC 5 times now, and on one trip, played HT in-between rounds at TOC.  I concur with the consensus here, TOC is a superior course. Externalities included, it is a landslide - the beach, scenery, family atmosphere, food, etc. are top notch at Kiawah. But from a strictly golf perspective, I enjoyed the variety and difficulty of TOC much more than HT. The par threes at HT are really terrific, but overall the course leaves me with the impression that it is simply tight. That is of course by design, and tree growth is constantly growing stricture for most golfers. TOC by contrast seems vast at times, and the winds and vistas help to accentuate this feeling. I took a caddie at HT, and really regretted the experience as I was paired up with three players who rode in carts - in contrast to the the walking only experience at TOC.

TOC is really two distinct nine hole tracks, and each plays dramatically different with the shifting winds. Each nine has several crescendos and diminuendos and there are a variety of reasons that the course challenges the player. Conversely HT has at times a monotonous feel, and it is hard to remember an adjective other than "tight" to describe the course after the immediate memory fades.

I have to say though, what a great trip! I'm very jealous, and essentially, you're asking us to help you choose between molten chocolate cake and chocolate soufflé.

J_ Crisham

Re: Kiawah v Harbor Town
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2009, 02:11:01 PM »
I preferred HT to TOC at Kiawah because it was tighter ,required more imagination with tee shots/angles to greens. It also has as good a set of par 3's you will find anywhere. HT 6 out of 10 for me. Hilton Head is a great place for a family with little kids. Kiawah is also a bit pricier if that matters.                  Jack

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