[Bill Hyde]

on a major greens renovation project due to toxic soil conditions and you had one of the game's top architects lined up to do the project, how would you vote? Here's the catch...it would cost you the equivalent of half your annual dues and you would lose access to your course for 10 months.. This is purely hypothetical of course and in no way represents anything that is going on at my home club tomorrow or any architects that regularly post on this forum. I am guessing the results are not projectable based on the mindset/makeup of this forum, but I am immensely curious.

[Joe Hancock]

on a major greens renovation project due to toxic soil conditions and you had one of the game's top architects lined up to do the project, how would you vote? Here's the catch...it would cost you the equivalent of half your annual dues and you would lose access to your course for 10 months.. This is purely hypothetical of course and in no way represents anything that is going on at my home club tomorrow or any architects that regularly post on this forum. I am guessing the results are not projectable based on the mindset/makeup of this forum, but I am immensely curious.

I'm most interested in the toxic soil......?

Joe

[Bill Hyde]

the USGA, leading agronomists, turf pathologists and sup's from top 100s around the country said you had a ticking time bomb due to perched water tables, poor drainage and a combination of bad mix installed in the 90s plus questionable topdressing materials over the last 15 years...oh, and 3 greens died during the previous summer (this year does not count, no summer!!)

[astavrides]

do you get access to another private course(s) during the 10 months your course is out of play?  if so, yes.

[Bill Brightly]

Unless I was already seriously considering joining another club, I'd vote yes pretty quickly.

I assume I've already paid a $25,000-$50,000 non-refundable initiation fee, so I don't want to walk away from that and have to pony up another one to join someplace else. And since I live in metro NY, access is a major problem so I want to be in a club.

Most importantly, the course is pretty useless with a "toxic" condition, so I would feel a sense of obligation to my fellow members not to cut and run, leaving the financial burden on a smaller number of members.

However, I'd make sure that we explored the possiblity of having a better course after the work. Maybe add more contour if the greens were boring, or restore lost features, certainly improve drainage if that was a problem, etc. Although it is a major imterruption, having 10 months to work on all the greens is a rare opportunity that many courses cannot consider.

[Bill Hyde]

yes, several comparable ones for a fee equivalent to your typical caddy fee at home

[Bill Hyde]

I should add that this is a Colt/Alison design previously among the top 100...quick aside and perhaps another thread, what course's greens best represent the Colt/Alison style?

[J_ Crisham]

Bill,  Sounds like what must be done is inevitable.  Just keep in mind that 10 months may turn out to be longer and also that costs may be in fact greater-much greater. My club went thru a major reno several years ago and it has turned out wonderfully but it wasn't without it's headaches before, during and after. Also weather can greatly affect the projected completion dates. Go for it but be very patient.            Wish you well,       Jack

[Tom_Doak]

Jack:

Since I'm going to be doing the renovation, I will just reassure you and Mr. Hyde that the 10 months should not turn out to be longer and that the costs will NOT turn out to be greater.

P.S. to Joe:  I don't know what they've told Jack, but the soil is not toxic ... the mix installed in a renovation was just too gravelly, and years of topdressing with real sand mix have formed a layer which is constantly wet.

[Bill Hyde]

Ok, ok..."toxic" may have been a bit inflammatory, but all political operatives use hyperbole to bolster their position. Should intra-club issues be any different??!!

[J_ Crisham]

Tom,   I wish you well on this project but your reassurance should be to Mr. Hyde not myself.  If you say you can get it done in 10 months,  good for you and even better for the members of this unnamed club. The reno work that I have seen you do at Cherry Hills,SFGC, WBYC, and Pasa has been quite impressive so I don't doubt either your ability or work ethic. As far as cost is concerned,every construction project I've been involved in has come in overbudget-guess I should have you on my jobsites.                                        Wish you well,   Jack

[Tom_Doak]

Jack:

The reason a lot of these type of projects go "over budget" is what software developers call feature creep -- it starts being a greens project but it grows to include millions of dollars of other stuff, including a lot of stuff that isn't even about golf.  One of the things we've been careful about is to try to cut those things off at the pass, and insist that when we are responsible for the budget that we are only associated with the things we've recommended the club pursue.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

bill
from the supers side, if the greens have all the issues that you mention the easiest way to 'fix' them would be to rebuild, which would result in the best surfaces all season for the membership. the only real concerns besides the funding (which sound like its there) and lack of access to the course is how original do you want to keep the surfaces. it sounds like doak is doing the job so it shouldn't be a major concern however they will still never be 100% like the original.

[Bill Hyde]

Jack, you are asking a question that many members have asked...now, based on Tom's response would you vote "yes" begrudgingly or with enthusiasm? I see this as a blessing  - deeply cloaked in disguise to many members -  as we get to blow up what was last done and reinvent our greens.

Alan, there was not much to the originals as I hear it...flat greens on a flat piece of land from what I'm told. I am definitely not the club historian having only been there since 02...however, I felt like the most recent incarnations were silly. It should be noted we have a flat piece of land, so any architect has to insert himself into the equation more here than on a topographically interesting property.

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