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Cliff Hamm

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2009, 10:40:24 AM »
Tim...as an architect why do you have a problem with giving a thrill to the average golfer?  Because the average golfer hits a drive 300 yards way downhill do you believe that makes him think he is better then he really is?  If so, why does it matter?  Isn't the idea of sport and golf to be recreation and enjoyable?

As far as risk/reward both holes I show offer it.  Neither is really reachable from the tee.  The first is 618 from the tips with a pond protecting the green.  Plenty of risk/reward on shot two.

The second hole is 540 from the tips with wetlands somewhere around 100 short of the green.

The bottom line is both holes are fun for the average golfer (me) and the talented (Tim Gavrich).  Why is that so awful?  In the end isn't fun what golf should be?

Ally Mcintosh

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2009, 10:56:43 AM »
Adrian,

I can't comment on the idea at all, not knowing the site... In principal, I have no problem with it, especially as an 18th hole...

However, I might echo Tim's sentiment in one respect... I'd prefer to see big downhill drops broken up in to a few interesting holes - I know a couple of good examples of courses where by chasing the dramatic drop-shot style holes, the architect has effectively had to route 14 or 15 uphill holes... Of course, you may not have that case here but as Tim said, what goes down must have had to go up...

I'm sure you've considered this to the nth degree though...

Adrian_Stiff

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2009, 11:12:10 AM »
Ally - Yes I have considered breaking it up into two holes and it split into two is another possible. To be honest, I just looked at it as a hole that was downhill, I forgot about par really (well I thought it was going to be a 4 until I measured it), its very pretty, visibility is good, the tee shot is quite wide but its narrow where you need to hit ito get on, left or right of that point will mean the ball wont get that forward roll, so there is a sort of premium for the perfect tee shot. Now its come out as a 5 I am thinking what a great example of par being meaningless which we all continually rant about on here.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

archie_struthers

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2009, 11:19:53 AM »
 8) ??? 8) ??? ::)


When either elevation or slope makes a hole play very short the architect should take this into account ....although it's  easy to say that par is just a number , you need some basic standards... why not make a 30 yard par three ????   Sure golf needs to be fun,  but making a mockery of par doesn't seem necessary to achieve these ends ...

In that the ball now goes so far , the USGA is now recommending to golf course raters that the minimum length of a five par starts over 500 yards , as opposed to the 470 +_  of a few decades ago.....


LIke the thought about making people happy...but you can do it with pin positions ....firm and fast conditions ...etc etc
 

Ally Mcintosh

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2009, 11:20:17 AM »
Adrian,

It's not the par that would concern me. Give the masses a chance to finish with eagle says I...

It's the compromise that you might have had to make to get a hole that drops 100m... That is equivalent to 3 very strenuous uphill holes... or 10 less strenuous uphill holes that are still noticeably "uphill"... What does it do to the overall course?... Will it make it feel like a chore?

(note I ask this because I know of other routings that fail because they fall in to this trap)

Adrian_Stiff

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2009, 11:36:06 AM »
[quote

In that the ball now goes so far , the USGA is now recommending to golf course raters that the minimum length of a five par starts over 500 yards , as opposed to the 470 +_  of a few decades ago.....

[/quote]It is over 500 yards.. If the club want it to be 504 yards and a par 4 or a par 5 its up to them. I suspect the popular vote would be a 5.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Adrian_Stiff

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2009, 11:45:05 AM »
Adrian,

It's not the par that would concern me. Give the masses a chance to finish with eagle says I...

It's the compromise that you might have had to make to get a hole that drops 100m... That is equivalent to 3 very strenuous uphill holes... or 10 less strenuous uphill holes that are still noticeably "uphill"... What does it do to the overall course?... Will it make it feel like a chore?

(note I ask this because I know of other routings that fail because they fall in to this trap)
Ally the other way up is probably half as steep, and is a par 3, so I reckon its a climb of 20-25 metres, the tee for this hole is already 15 metres higher and that is over 2 400 yard holes so unnoticeable the uphill par 3 is not a great hole at all to be honest but I do have to get up the hill and I feel this is the best way, then there are 4 or 5 holes that are flatter then a hole slightly uphill to the green but you would still see the green so an easy walk, from green 17 to tee 18 is about a 10 metre climb. At the end of the day there are two choices for routing over this proposed hole, but both would be down. The other way up makes more sense.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tim Nugent

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2009, 11:48:01 AM »
Cliff, perhaps I should have use "illusion" rather than thrill. For "thrilling" would be to be able pull off something amazing.  I fail to see why you would be thrilled to be rewarded by gravity rather than skill.   Following your logic, we should just tell golfers that every hole is 100 yds longer than it actually is, then they could shoot a good score and amaze themselves that they played just like the pros - driver/wedge on all those (wink-wink) "long holes".

Joe Jemsik gained fame by hitting a "500 yard" drive decades ago.  It was off the roof of a Chicago skyscraper!

Look at it from a match play vantage point.  Would this be a good hole? Remember - par no longer matters.  Will you get an advantage over your opponent because you are more skilled? Or because you challenged a strategic element? No, there is no skill or strategy required in the hole described.  And don't confuse the issue with the holes you posted.  They do not exemplify what Adrain described.  Plus, if Adrian had mentioned that the tee shot would be blind, I would have advised him to purchase as much Liability Insurance as he could afford.

Adrian, just ask yourself, "is this the best it could be?".  Unless you have it to spare, you're eating up a lot of real estate relative to the actual playing distance.  And all the unused fairway would need to be maintained long after you are gone.  You're using a par 5 to create a short par 4.

Sounds like you'ld get more bang for the buck with a risk-reward driveable 4 followed by a demanding short 3.  It's been my experience that, when routing on strong downslopes, greens will appear unnatural unless they are placed at an angle to the gradient.  Otherwise they just look like a wedge of cheese.
Coasting is a downhill process

Ally Mcintosh

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2009, 11:50:08 AM »
Fair enough Adrian... As I said, I'dve been amazed if it wasn't something that had crossed your mind when doing your routings... It obviously had...

Adrian_Stiff

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2009, 12:12:31 PM »
Tim I think it could be a good match play hole and I am positive that as a hole it would be very exciting, firstly it is very visual. Skill would be required to green your tee shot. You would have to hit a really good one, and it would need to hit a fairly exact point in order to get the forward shoot, if you did not hit that spot under firm conditions you simply would not get that extra 150 yards. As for it being hit in two, it would be quite hard to miss the green from 200 yards out unless you decided to pitch it there and you missed left or right or long. Or if you dragged it very left and missed the steep slope. The tee shot is very open width of say 70 yards at up to 330 yards, a left or right one would gather back towards the centre. Dont rule out people taking 5 here, but I accept that it will play more like a 4 than a 5.
The extra use of land is not an issue in this case.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ben Stephens

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2009, 12:15:45 PM »
Adi,

Today my friend and I hit a 5 iron to the downhill 260 yard par 4 at Rutland Water today and both were in the same place in a greenside bunker!!! - I got the birdie and my friend a par. The way I see this is to balance the course out with a very easy reachable par 5 with a long difficult par 4 or par 5. I dont have any problems with and the potential of driving the green on a par 5 excites me. Is the hole as steep as the downhill 13th at Bristol and Clifton?

Cheers

Ben

Adrian_Stiff

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2009, 12:26:52 PM »
Ben- Its much steeper than the 13th at B&C. Probably three times steeper. Its not consistently the same drop throughout the 500 yards, there is quite a bit early then it flattens, then it drops. You would not see the ball roll between say 350-450 from the tee but the green is visible.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Michael Blake

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2009, 12:28:55 PM »
making all sorts of scores possible on what would be a par 5.

Hmmm...I could score a 2, 4, 8, X, ...on a 500 yd hole. (though I could make any of those numbers on any 170yd hole too  :) )  Sounds FUN to me!  And pretty tempting while standing on the tee.

Tim Nugent

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2009, 01:04:31 PM »
Sounds like your mind's made up.  If it's to play as a 4, call it one - regardless of the "length".  That's just a guidline.  Many long 4's are over 500 these days.  FYI, I just remodeled a 4 that played out flat to a landing area and then sloped down to the green.  Shorter members hated the fact that longer players had an "unfair" advantage in that they could reach the slope.  The front of the green approach was always soggy, it was hard to get on/off the green, and it was difficult to hold the green, especially playing off the downslope.
Good Luck, don't say I didn't warn you. (As my old Soil Mechanics professor was found of saying -"when you get the sweet ass, you tend to lose all objectivity" and he was one of the smartest guys I ever knew.)
Coasting is a downhill process

Kalen Braley

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2009, 02:31:38 PM »
Adrian wanted me to post this on his behalf.

Its winter time at the proposed site now, but you can get some idea of how the hole will look!!   ;D  Just joshing Adrian.  ;)


Niall C

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2009, 02:36:44 PM »
I agree with the comment about pace of play.  It could prove to be a potential nightmare with everyone waiting for the green to clear then swinging for the fences and hitting it all over creation.  This works on a short par four because the second shot (after the over zealous player doesn't hit the green) is usually not too far from the putting surface (within 50-100 yards).  However, with a 500 yard hole like this, even a 300 yard drive leaves 200 yards for the second.  
Good luck!
Mark

Mark

You could make it a call on hole where the palyers stand aside half way down the fairway to let the ones behind drive.

Theres a hole on one of the course at Murrayshall in Perth where the elevational change is so great you can land a ball on the green of the par 4 quite readily. Not quite the same as a par 5 but great fun and one you felt compelled to go for even with trees all around.

Niall

Alex Miller

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2009, 02:45:23 PM »
For the most part, par is considered the number of shots it takes for a skilled golfer to hit the green playing prudently plus two shots. It doesn't sound like anyone would ever try to layup and pitch on in 3, so how is this a par 5?

Ian_L

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2009, 07:26:34 PM »
I like the idea.  One question: how far would a typical 175-yard drive on this hole go?  If the short player is left with 300yds to the green while the longer player is on, that would be a problem in my opinion.

Tony_Muldoon

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2009, 03:20:59 AM »
Adrian I like the sound of it.

 But a word of caution.  At Hainault Forrest a local pay and play, there are at least 3 downhill par 4’s that are potentially drivable.  However the effect is that everyone swings their hardest on these holes. Many of the high handicappers manage to miss huge fairways, slowing things down considerably as they look in the trees well past what they actually achieved.  Won’t be so bad on the final hole but it’s a consideration.
2025 Craws Nest Tassie, Carnoustie.

Bruce Katona

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2009, 10:09:17 AM »
The more options given to a player, the more you get into their respective heads, bringing the variety of scores on this hole into play - from an ace on a par 5 thru and above the dreaded snowman - sounds like a great idea if the remaining routing isn't compromised as others have mentioned......I say "'give it a go".
"If my words did glow with the gold of sunshine
And my tunes were played on the harp unstrung
Would you hear my voice come through the music
Would you hold it near as it were your own....."
Robert Hunter, Jerome Garcia

Adrian_Stiff

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2009, 10:31:45 AM »
I like the idea.  One question: how far would a typical 175-yard drive on this hole go?  If the short player is left with 300yds to the green while the longer player is on, that would be a problem in my opinion.
Ian I think maybe 275/300 when its dry, maybe only 200/225 when its damper. I think a typical 175 driver would easy get on in two in dry conditions, in damp conditions no one would drive this and it still might be a decent long iron second shot for a good player.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Kalen Braley

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2009, 10:56:21 AM »
Notwithstanding talk to the effect that "any chance you can give a player a chance for eagle, it's a good thing, I'd like to remind everybody of the basic, unchanging reality of golf:

Short hitters and shitty ballstikers should NEVER have a chance for eagle!

Shivas,

Just like:

Guys who can't putt should never have hope of shooting good scores, unless they cheat and put a 2nd putter in the bag!!!

Ben Stephens

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2009, 11:01:33 AM »
Adi,

Steeper than 13th at Bristol and Clifton - sounds like a Cliffhanger!!! - if the drive was short of the green say 50 to 80 yards depending on the green shape it will be a hard shot as its a steep downhill lie that means there will be less control of the ball spin to enable it to stop on the green as well as hitting it at a great height.

Any chance you can send me the sketch proposal and I will upload it on this forum

Cheers

Ben
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 11:18:04 AM by Ben Stephens »

Anthony Gray

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2009, 11:07:15 AM »


  I love the idea. It will get people talking about the course and people will come just to play that hole. Quirk is always a topic of conversation amoung golfers. If you build it they will come.

  Anthony


Ben Stephens

Re: 500 yard hole, you can drive
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2009, 11:22:41 AM »
For people who don't understand how steep Gloucestershire is - there is an annual cheese chasing event on a steep hill. So that makes me wonder if the golfer will end up chasing the ball!

http://www.cheese-rolling.co.uk/

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/87961879.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1938A58053233977B67DC1C0DA5E21F154DB01E70F2B3269972

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