500 yard hole, you can drive

[Adrian_Stiff]

I am just looking at a new job and a number of potential routings. In one I could have a hole which is 500 yards long and steeply downhill, I think it could be driven under firm conditions, it will be easily reached in two by almost everybody, the last 150 yards pretty much would gather to the green making all sorts of scores possible on what would be a par 5. Ive already decided, but do you think its a good idea or bad idea.

[Michael Huber]

Any time you have a chance for lousy players to reach a green in two, the golfing public will enjoy it.

[TEPaul]

Adrian:

We had a hole designed on a landform of that project I call "Ardrossan" where a long driver would've been able to actually drive the ball around 550 yards but it would end up along side the high ridge-line green in an enormous dip and from there the player would be looking at a short extremely lofted shot up to a green (about 25 feet above you) that was very long (about 60 YARDS) but extremely shallow (around 12-13 steps) from the position of that drive with perdition over the other side and of course a total rollback for an approach a little short.

[Tom Birkert]

I like the idea. One of my favourite holes in golf is the 1st at Oakmont, especially the approach.

I think the green would need to be similarly sloped, and you'd need to come up with ideas to make the green surround difficult.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian:

We had a hole designed on a landform of that project I call "Ardrossan" where a long driver would've been able to actually drive the ball around 550 yards but it would end up along side the high ridge-line green in an enormous dip and from there the player would be looking at a short extremely lofted shot up to a green (about 25 feet above you) that was very long (about 60 YARDS) but extremely shallow (around 12-13 steps) from the position of that drive with perdition over the other side and of course a total rollback for an approach a little short.

The green for this one is almost impossible to miss from 200 yards, you almost have to let it roll in and it would just gather in like a funnell, I could get a hollow in around both sides but I don't think anyone will attack the green...could be a great cure for pitchmarks!!!

[Mark_Rowlinson]

17th at Goring and Streetly is a par 5 which might well be driven by the mighty, but if you get the angle wrong, only by a little, you may well have a 200-yard second shot across, up or round the hill. I haven't played the hole enough times to decide whether it is good, bad or indifferent, but it certainly is fun. 

[JeffTodd]

It sounds like a fun hole to play once or twice. Beyond that it sounds very one dimensional, imo.

How would this affect the pace of the round as some players may wait for the green to clear? On a 500 yard hole could you hit into two groups with one shot?

[Alex Miller]

I am just looking at a new job and a number of potential routings. In one I could have a hole which is 500 yards long and steeply downhill, I think it could be driven under firm conditions, it will be easily reached in two by almost everybody, the last 150 yards pretty much would gather to the green making all sorts of scores possible on what would be a par 5. Ive already decided, but do you think its a good idea or bad idea.

Doesn't that make it more of a par 4? Not that par really matters...

[Kyle Henderson]

My concern is that the hole may be overly repetitive if nearly everyone's approach gather onto the green. Can you shape things a tad to create a preffered side of the fairway that feeds on while the other leaves a somewhat testing pitch or chip?

[Mark_Fine]

I agree with the comment about pace of play.  It could prove to be a potential nightmare with everyone waiting for the green to clear then swinging for the fences and hitting it all over creation.  This works on a short par four because the second shot (after the over zealous player doesn't hit the green) is usually not too far from the putting surface (within 50-100 yards).  However, with a 500 yard hole like this, even a 300 yard drive leaves 200 yards for the second.  
Good luck!
Mark

[Jaeger Kovich]

How much of the hole is visible from the tee? Will you be able to see the ball roll all the way down to the green?

If you cant, I'm not sure how exciting driving a green on a par-5 would be.

Would there be any reason not to hit driver?

[Michael Rossi]

Adrian

I like the idea. You say it will only be reachable in 1 under the correct conditions, but to give a player the chance at eagle most times.

I like have a chance at eagle regardless where I am playing

If the hole fits with your routing and flows well with the rest, I say go for it.

[Tim Gavrich]

It sounds like the type of hole that might make a case for different pars from different sets of tees, with the Championship tees making it a reachable par 4 and the Members tees being further back and making it (for them) a reachable par 5.

At The Ranch GC in Southwick, MA, there are two par 5s where a really good tee shot may end up traveling between 350 and 415 yards, leaving a mid-iron into the green.  But there's sufficient penalty for being wild off the tee.  I like both holes for the sheer fun of having the chance to hit one's all-time long drive.

[Eric Olsen]

I think this sounds like a blast!  Pace of play could be a problem, but then creating preferred sides of the fairway or green by shaping might just exacerbate that.   You could remedy some of this by allowing groups to hit up while the group ahead lines up their double eagle/double eagle putts!

[Phil_the_Author]

I think that you are stuck on the idea that YARDAGE decides par instead of how long a hole PLAYS. From your description it is a par 4 as "it will be easily reached in two by almost everybody." A two-shotter is a two-shotter regardless of the number of yards they cover.

What I am more interested in is the obvious dramatic course elevation change aqnd how you will rise back up the nearly third of a mile that you have dropped down! That is what will decide for you if the rouiting is a truly good one and if the course will turn out to be memorable in a positive sense.

I once hit a nearly 800 yard drive. It landed about 280+ yards out from the tee directly on a cement cart path and bounded high and onto a hard pan road that led DOWNHILL to where the cart storage area is. My playing partners enjoyed deciding that I was NOT Out-Of-Bounds and made me play back UPHILL! As my score increased the drive became nightmarish in remembrance...

[Mark McKeever]

I agree with Phil in that it should be based on the fact that everyone will be getting home in two should indicate that it should play as a par 4.  With the funneling land around the greensite it would be good to have a hole that is long on the scorecard, but plays to a normal length.  Also, depending on the tees, it would be good to have tee sets that could make it drive-able.

Mark

[archie_struthers]

 

Adrian with all due respect how could it possibly be a good par five if you can drive the green.....common senseis that it would be a four par  .....   in fact why would you ever want someone putting for double eagle ?   although golf course design works better with some quirk ...this is a little silly don't you think ?   Go Phillies !

[Mike Nuzzo]

Archie -
Would it be better as a par 4?

Adrian -
I'm sold.
Show a picture and I'll probably think its great...

GO YANKS!

[Chris Cupit]

I understand the fun aspect but it sounds a bit silly.

Is it blind?  I assume you couldn't see the ball land/finish and there may be a liability issue?  Is the green huge?  If the balls all funnel in the same area will one area of turf wear out?

I like the idea of a reachable hole for all levels if players from the appropriate tees but this sounds a bit crazy.

[PThomas]

i dont like the idea

[Jason Topp]

Most people enjoy this one which is similar in concept:

[Alex Miller]

I would bet money that no one has driven 5 at NSW however. 

[Cliff Hamm]

It sounds like the type of hole that might make a case for different pars from different sets of tees, with the Championship tees making it a reachable par 4 and the Members tees being further back and making it (for them) a reachable par 5.

At The Ranch GC in Southwick, MA, there are two par 5s where a really good tee shot may end up traveling between 350 and 415 yards, leaving a mid-iron into the green.  But there's sufficient penalty for being wild off the tee.  I like both holes for the sheer fun of having the chance to hit one's all-time long drive.

I immediately thought of the two par 5's at Ranch.  Certainly not driveable by mere mortals, but tons of fun.  The pix don't do the slope of the hill justice:

Blind tee shot taken from in front of the tee:



Looking back up the hill:


The other par 5, which is right next to the first.  Again, a blind tee shot:



Taken from the side of the green to try to capture somewhat the hill:



For those of us who are distance challenged the thrill of finally hitting a long one is great.  As with all blind shots but especially down hill there is also the anticipation of seeing where the ball ended up.  Alas, I am typically dissappointed

Go for it!

[Tim Nugent]

Just what is it that you are trying to achieve?  Giving an average player the "thrill" of pretending he's better than he actually is?
Why not just slope every fairway to the middle and iinstall a U-shaped concrete trough?  Personally, I take Risk-Reward into consideration when designing. 

Don''t see any here? Just gimmick golf.

If you have that much Downhill elevation to play with, I would think you could use it to create a slew of more interesting holes.  Plus what goes down must get back up.  So it seems to me that you would have either one or more severely uphill holes or a site that has a long gentle side and a steep drop-off side (like an egg on it's side).  I'm sure there is a better solution - if you need some help finding it, just let me know.

Why do I get a flashback of Don Johnson outdriving Kevin Costner with a putter be turning around and hitting it down the road?

[Adrian_Stiff]

I take your points, I will try an answer some of your questions but the idea is that it is a very easy hole and will produce a fun score.
Fun being the key word and yes I do want to flatter them, essentially this is a par 4 hole by normal play but its 500+ yards so could be a par 5. A player putting for an albatross or even holing it for a condor is crazy, quirky perhaps silly but in many ways its best to just forget par an except it as a hole. A pro or reasonable hitter of say a 280 yard drive would under dry conditions put the ball on the green, if its damp I expect that same player could be left with a 170 yard shot in, but by and large this hole could play -200 yards what the card says as it is very steeply downhill in places. The green would be visible from the tee, you could hook or slice it into trouble, only a real straight one would get the real forward shoot. Pace of play wont overly be an issue as its the 18th. I could make a very rolling green and I probably could angle one side of the approach to catch the balls up a bit, but I do want one line of say a 10 yard width that could gather the ball onto the green. The drop from tee to green is about 100 metres. I have no doubt the hole will attract fans and enemies too.

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