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Mike_Young

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Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #75 on: October 20, 2009, 10:06:09 AM »
Let me try to explain my thoughts one more time....
when I say" golf was not meant to make $$$$$"....I am speaking of the game itself.....look at all of our games...softball, tennis, little league, hiking....none of these can really justify their existence if it were there to make a profit....they are all there for enjoyment....in the purest sense....it is when we try to take them past that point that things can get out of whack....golf in GB was a bout as basic as maintenance could  be.....cost to play was minimal....and we continued to refine the game and its playing fields into the late 1970's where cost could be justified...but then the 1980's came and the great idea to use golf as an amenity to RE sales and resorts without considering actual per round cost and how it could sustain itself took over.....turf equipment manufacturers developed more sophistication and made more profit...( i remember when Paul Latshaw at Oakmont took a G3 Toro riding greensmower and had hs mechanic attach two extra reels making the first 5 gang lightweight fwy unit around 1985) irrigation became more sophisticated, grass began to be cut shorter....all of these things making money for the golf industry but could the game support it...or was it RE development that was supporting such?  And now when no lots are selling..can green fees really support the built in overhead of these golf facilities...hell no....the modern game has been subsidized for years...whether it be members, municipalities or resort guest....but the main subsidizer has been the RE developments....
And without them golf has to readjust so that a reasonable sound cost can be justified by the people that make up the market.....JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Sweeney

Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #76 on: October 20, 2009, 10:13:02 AM »
Mike,

Just as a counterpoint, what about the RTJ Trail in mainly Alabama? Used to attract tourist, I think. Also see Vietnam golf from today's NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/20/world/asia/20golf.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=vietnam%20golf&st=cse

It is a big industry now, with many different models.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #77 on: October 20, 2009, 10:13:53 AM »
Mike,

The problem with those examples you give, is other than some cost upfront to build tennis courts, soccer field, baseball fields, etc....they cost almost nothing to maintain and it requires very little land.

But when we introduce a golf course over 150 acres and costly maintaince, its an entirely different animal and a sense of "ownership" and Return on Investment is bound to take over ones mindset.  Sure in the case of city or county run munis perhaps not so much because the land often doesn't have to be bought so the need to pay off a massive loan isn't there.  For private clubs and daily fees though, one must immediately go into the mindest of how do we raise the funds to both pay off the loan for land, designer, and construction costs as well as the ongoing maintainence.   And so it starts......

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #78 on: October 20, 2009, 10:30:18 AM »
Mike S,

Do you think the RTJ trail has made any money?????

Kalen,
I must still not be getting my point across.....golf was never meant to cost what it now cost to maintain either....

Can we agree that if a golf project is not able to make a profit from its green fees/cart revenue or it's allocated portion of the dues structure....then it is making it's money off of a golf related line item such as lot sales..hotel room....economic development fee etc?

Golf has to get back to where it can make it off of a fair cost to play ...nothing else....
The vietnam article says there are only 5000 golfers at the most.....so it ain't golf that is driving GOLF in Vietnam.....it is destination resort development..... ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Sweeney

Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #79 on: October 20, 2009, 10:42:01 AM »
Mike S,

Do you think the RTJ trail has made any money?????



Obviously not the golf, but it depends on what you count:

http://www.encyclopediaofalabama.org/face/Article.jsp?id=h-1622

Although the golf courses themselves are only marginally profitable when compared with other aspects of the $25 billion-plus Alabama retirement system, the overall trail initiative and accompanying hotel development served as the centerpiece of a successful effort to bolster tourism and attract industry to Alabama, bringing about a billion dollars to the state between 1995 and 2005. Indeed, the RSA became the largest hotel developer in the state. The trail even spawned state-financed imitators in Tennessee ("The Bear Trace," a series of Jack Nicklaus designs) and Louisiana ("The Audubon Golf Trail").

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #80 on: October 20, 2009, 10:49:14 AM »
There are a couple of guys I know who bought their courses in the 70s/early 80s and none of these guys are worried about much.  Of course, they have to keep their places in a condition that's comparable to others in their neighborhoods, but they have little to nothing in mortgage costs. In other words they make money selling nothing else but golf, and much of that on foot.

These aren't CCFAD's, they're just golf-like-you-remembered-it-30years-ago places.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #81 on: October 20, 2009, 10:50:45 AM »
Mike S,

Do you think the RTJ trail has made any money?????

Kalen,
I must still not be getting my point across.....golf was never meant to cost what it now cost to maintain either....

Can we agree that if a golf project is not able to make a profit from its green fees/cart revenue or it's allocated portion of the dues structure....then it is making it's money off of a golf related line item such as lot sales..hotel room....economic development fee etc?

Golf has to get back to where it can make it off of a fair cost to play ...nothing else....
The vietnam article says there are only 5000 golfers at the most.....so it ain't golf that is driving GOLF in Vietnam.....it is destination resort development..... ;D

Mike,

I will agree that in the beginning perhaps this is not what golf was....not so much what it was meant to be.  If we're going to talk about things that were "meant to be" then we get into some shifty sands where nothing can be pinned down because its all subjective.

IMO it seems like golf is where it is now due to changes in economic conditions that are largely out of its control. Land Prices, wages, equipment costs, insurance costs, regulatory costs, raw materials, etc, etc have all risen in subsequent years making running a golf course alot more costly.  Sure Green Fees have also increased too, but so has the competition as more and more courses get built and the on-upmanship game starts in the hope of attracting customers.

So perhaps all of this is not what golf was "meant to be".....but it certainly seems to be what it "is" today.  And I'm guessing that whether or not a course can survive these days in large part depends on thier land.  For munis and older private clubs that own thier land outright...I'm guessing its a lot easier to make ends meet, but for everyone else, its gotta be brutal to pay for thier debt load and pay for staff to operate the course.

Any way you slice it though, one must be in a fiscal state of mind to be successful, and this fiscal state of mind is what leads people to think they can make $$$$$

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #82 on: October 20, 2009, 10:51:53 AM »
Mike S,

Do you think the RTJ trail has made any money?????



Obviously not the golf, but it depends on what you count:



Michael,
That's my whole point....I bet they got some of those accounting tricks in there too...huh.... ;D ;D  if you AVERAGE the maintnenace cost of all those courses it would take a 175 green fee....they are huge.....
What we have noticed here is that it baits a lot of YANKEES to come to Alabama..... ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #83 on: October 20, 2009, 11:03:17 AM »
Mike S,

Do you think the RTJ trail has made any money?????

Kalen,
I must still not be getting my point across.....golf was never meant to cost what it now cost to maintain either....

Can we agree that if a golf project is not able to make a profit from its green fees/cart revenue or it's allocated portion of the dues structure....then it is making it's money off of a golf related line item such as lot sales..hotel room....economic development fee etc?

Golf has to get back to where it can make it off of a fair cost to play ...nothing else....
The vietnam article says there are only 5000 golfers at the most.....so it ain't golf that is driving GOLF in Vietnam.....it is destination resort development..... ;D

Mike,

I will agree that in the beginning perhaps this is not what golf was....not so much what it was meant to be.  If we're going to talk about things that were "meant to be" then we get into some shifty sands where nothing can be pinned down because its all subjective.

IMO it seems like golf is where it is now due to changes in economic conditions that are largely out of its control. Land Prices, wages, equipment costs, insurance costs, regulatory costs, raw materials, etc, etc have all risen in subsequent years making running a golf course alot more costly.  Sure Green Fees have also increased too, but so has the competition as more and more courses get built and the on-upmanship game starts in the hope of attracting customers.

So perhaps all of this is not what golf was "meant to be".....but it certainly seems to be what it "is" today.  And I'm guessing that whether or not a course can survive these days in large part depends on thier land.  For munis and older private clubs that own thier land outright...I'm guessing its a lot easier to make ends meet, but for everyone else, its gotta be brutal to pay for thier debt load and pay for staff to operate the course.

Any way you slice it though, one must be in a fiscal state of mind to be successful, and this fiscal state of mind is what leads people to think they can make $$$$$

Kalen,

I don't disagree with your thoughts above.....let me try it another way...there is a much larger Honda market than Mercedes market...agree??  If golf cannot create a product that fits the Honda market then it will not grow and may retract.....and no matter how we try to account the numbers...there is a day when all the tricks come to a head and we are just sitting there with a large market that wants to play golf for a reasonable fee.....and what is that FEE..I don't know but I often wonder if that fee that the market can stand allows for much profit?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #84 on: October 20, 2009, 11:07:19 AM »
Mike:

You could not be explaining this any better.  You're just talking to a lot of guys who don't want to understand the truth.

This morning I was reading the National Golf Foundation's report on "The Future of Public Golf in America".  Here are my three highlights:

1.  A chart captioned "Root of the problem -- the 1990's golf course development boom".  They forgot to mention they were the chief promoter of that boom, calling for one new golf course per day during the 1990's.

2.  One of their charts showed that 24 public and 10 private courses have opened in 2009.  Nevertheless, their representative sampling of recent openings included 6 high-end private courses and zero public courses.

3.  Their conclusion.  "Our best estimate is that 100-200 courses will close per year until supply and demand reach equilibrium."  Well, DUH.  Things will keep changing until supply and demand reach equilibrium?  What Ph.D. did it take to reach that conclusion?  ;)

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #85 on: October 20, 2009, 11:13:29 AM »
Mike S,

Do you think the RTJ trail has made any money?????

Kalen,
I must still not be getting my point across.....golf was never meant to cost what it now cost to maintain either....

Can we agree that if a golf project is not able to make a profit from its green fees/cart revenue or it's allocated portion of the dues structure....then it is making it's money off of a golf related line item such as lot sales..hotel room....economic development fee etc?

Golf has to get back to where it can make it off of a fair cost to play ...nothing else....
The vietnam article says there are only 5000 golfers at the most.....so it ain't golf that is driving GOLF in Vietnam.....it is destination resort development..... ;D

Mike,

I will agree that in the beginning perhaps this is not what golf was....not so much what it was meant to be.  If we're going to talk about things that were "meant to be" then we get into some shifty sands where nothing can be pinned down because its all subjective.

IMO it seems like golf is where it is now due to changes in economic conditions that are largely out of its control. Land Prices, wages, equipment costs, insurance costs, regulatory costs, raw materials, etc, etc have all risen in subsequent years making running a golf course alot more costly.  Sure Green Fees have also increased too, but so has the competition as more and more courses get built and the on-upmanship game starts in the hope of attracting customers.

So perhaps all of this is not what golf was "meant to be".....but it certainly seems to be what it "is" today.  And I'm guessing that whether or not a course can survive these days in large part depends on thier land.  For munis and older private clubs that own thier land outright...I'm guessing its a lot easier to make ends meet, but for everyone else, its gotta be brutal to pay for thier debt load and pay for staff to operate the course.

Any way you slice it though, one must be in a fiscal state of mind to be successful, and this fiscal state of mind is what leads people to think they can make $$$$$

Kalen,

I don't disagree with your thoughts above.....let me try it another way...there is a much larger Honda market than Mercedes market...agree??  If golf cannot create a product that fits the Honda market then it will not grow and may retract.....and no matter how we try to account the numbers...there is a day when all the tricks come to a head and we are just sitting there with a large market that wants to play golf for a reasonable fee.....and what is that FEE..I don't know but I often wonder if that fee that the market can stand allows for much profit?

Mike,

I would certainly agree with your last statement that for now we likely need more "Honda" courses than "Mercedes" courses.

Overall though, each segment has to find its balance.  For instance here in the Salt Lake City general area, there are certainly far more Honda courses than Mercedes courses. So while there hasn't been any new Honda courses built in awhile, there certainly has been Mercedes courses built, (privates), because the area was underserved in that segment for awhile.  But things are better balanced out now as Mercedes courses have come to a grinding halt, and Honda courses aren't being built either.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is there is a market for Hondas, Mercedes, and even Yugos, and in large part I suspect each of these segments has to find thier own balance.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #86 on: October 20, 2009, 11:30:21 AM »
Mike:
3.  Their conclusion.  "Our best estimate is that 100-200 courses will close per year until supply and demand reach equilibrium."  Well, DUH.  Things will keep changing until supply and demand reach equilibrium?  What Ph.D. did it take to reach that conclusion?  ;)

Without consulting a PhD and using my own gut feelings.....the demand will decline as the average public green fee rises.....and if there is no way to bring that cost down then another golfer bites the dust.....and I think there are still  ways to bring that cost down....

A friend of mine, who was the Director of maintenance at a large resort near here and at ANGC before that...and has a Penn St Turf degree just bought a course I designed in 1991, Lane Creek golf Club in Athens....small clubhouse, good maintenance and small staff....he is pulling them in from private courses and public courses.....dong very well....of course his clients eat dinner at other places and have their weddings in other places....and they have to wipe their own clubs in the parking lot....about $40....that's where we are going.... ;) ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #87 on: October 20, 2009, 11:32:49 AM »
So I guess what I'm trying to say is there is a market for Hondas, Mercedes, and even Yugos, and in large part I suspect each of these segments has to find thier own balance. Kalen B

Too many Hondas affix Mercedes ornaments to their hoods.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Kalen Braley

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Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #88 on: October 20, 2009, 11:38:13 AM »
So I guess what I'm trying to say is there is a market for Hondas, Mercedes, and even Yugos, and in large part I suspect each of these segments has to find thier own balance. Kalen B

Too many Hondas affix Mercedes ornaments to their hoods.

True,

But we know its still a Honda even if the owner is otherwise delusional.  And if thier delusion leads to thier demise...then this is a good thing right?

We want the strongest, smartest, and the best run courses to survive right?  Because overall it makes the herd stronger....

Lou_Duran

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Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #89 on: October 20, 2009, 12:05:05 PM »
Tom Doak,

I wonder how Mayor Bloomberg and Governor Patterson feel when the populists are successful in squashing contracted bonuses and salaries.  As CA and NY politicos might have learned, it may be easy to win popular elections by lavishly granting benefits to their favorite special interest groups without subjecting them to the pain of having to pay for them, but when things go bad and no money is coming in from the very small minorities which do pay most of the taxes, the shit hits the fan.  And the "shovel ready" stimulus funding now sustaining the bloated bureaucracies and their dependents can't go on forever.  The Golden Goose can run dry.  

Mike,

Assuming that you're correct, and I suspect that you might be, what is the future of new golf construction in the U.S.?  Can a golf course be built today on a Honda budget close to any population center able to support it?

Assuming that golf courses will be subject to new mandated employer provided healthcare (or at least pay 8%+ of payroll into a public plan), electricity rates nearly double under cap and tax, and those who have traditionally supported golf find their formerly discretionary income redistrubuted to others who have not, can the industry adjust?

Might the recipients of OPM (other people's money) now be likely to come to the game?  Or might our participation rates go the way of other socialist democracies like Spain, Italy, and France?

Facing $500+/- Billion in Medicare cuts, are the once deemed positive demographics for the game now negative?  It is fairly common knowledge that as people get older, they tend to hold a bit tighter to their money.  With a measly 1% - 2% return on secure investments, probably negative after inflation and taxes, will the elderly spend whatever they might have left on green fees or club dues?  And if they curtail their rounds, what might be the effect on healthcare costs from diminished activity?

  

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #90 on: October 20, 2009, 12:31:50 PM »
what is the future of new golf construction in the U.S.?  Can a golf course be built today on a Honda budget close to any population center able to support it?
  


Lou:

A great question, though I had to cut a lot of other stuff away from it.

A golf course can certainly be built today on a Honda budget.  Two problems remain:

1.  There aren't enough people in America right now who can afford a new Honda.  Their solution for the moment is to hang onto their clunker [if they couldn't afford a new Honda even with a government handout], and to frequent auto parts stores.  As long as that is the case, new course development is pretty much dead.

2.  Your kicker about "close to any population center able to support it" brings in the issue that raw real estate is still overpriced as a result of the housing bubble, even as there is no demand for the land underneath many failing golf courses.  Thus, whatever activity there will be is more likely to come from refurbishment and redevelopment, instead of new development.

Steve Wilson

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Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #91 on: October 20, 2009, 01:08:02 PM »
I think Mike Young is right that golf was never meant to make $$$$$.
To survive individual courses have to at least make $.
In flush times I suspect a lot of places can make $$, but that's about the size of it.
Even resorts that charge $$$$ don't make $$$$.

A tremendous amount of the $ to be made in golf has to be in balls, and shoes, and all the equipment that the individual has to renew.

Trying to make $$$$$ instead of a more realistic $ is like trying to sell apples for $10,000 apiece on the assumption that you only have to sell one a month. 

Unfortunately a lot of courses are going to go under because they can't make the $.

In the nineties I used to go to Southern Pines in the early winter and late spring.  I stayed at the Fairway Motel and one of the owners was a man who had worked in finance and real estate before getting into the motel business.  He kept a close eye on all the bankruptcies that plagued courses and resorts in the area.

 Even in the benign 1990s there were a lot of courses going belly up.  He said it was predictable about how many times a course would change hands before it could make money.  Usually by the time it was in the hands of its third or fourth owner the course would be able to turn a profit because that owner would have only 10 to 25% of the original investment to pay off.

Are we going to see any of that now?     
Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #92 on: October 20, 2009, 01:31:42 PM »
Tom,

Part of the problem is that many good, polite folks like you choose to "cut a lot of stuff away from it", lamenting (I am assuming that you're not too peachy about the current state of the industry) the effects while not addressing the causes.

As the government became more involved in social engineering results in trying to assure its vision of a "fair" and "just" society without being able to change human nature , people and markets adjusted.  The laws of unintended consequences nearly always prevail, and  real estate development gets pushed out away from less desirable areas.

People like to live on golf courses even when only a rather small percentage play golf.  Oil prices, cost of infrastructure, regulation, taxes, etc.- all subject to or greatly influenced by government- go up, and all of a sudden projects that were doing okay have to make major changes.  The economy turns very sour and many don't survive.  Some are recapitalized at a fraction of the former basis and do well if the industry regains its health.  Others which can't cover operating expenses find alternative uses.

The bigger question today is whether golf can make a come back if the prevailing thinking vis-a-vis governmental involvement in the economy is secular (as in long term) and institutionilzed.  I don't have an answer, but my gut tells me that these are critical times.   As our percentage of GDP made up by government reaches and passes those of Europe's socialist democracies, can we expect that our historiacally lower unemployment,  high mobility between social stratas, and higher golf participation rates not to mimick theirs?  I don't know why they wouldn't.  Ironically some of the EEU countries seem to be reversing their market stifling policies at the very same time we seem to be so hell-bent on adopting them.  Strange to be lectured by Putin and the Chinese on how to be better capitalists.  ???

 

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #93 on: October 20, 2009, 01:36:18 PM »
Steve Wilson, very well said.  ;D  It seems to me that most people writing in on Mike's thread get his point, and I also believe I get it.

But, Lou is all exasperated, seemingly more so about redistribution of wealth and someone else or some other wealth entity subsidizing the common other golfer's good time, and making this somehow the perfect analogy to what he perceives as the larger characteristic of a modern US political/economic scene.  Well, I find irony in Lou's exasperation.  Now Lou, I'm going to do something uncop like and ask or pose a few questions of which answers I don't know, but here goes>>>  ::) ;) ;D

Lou, as I understand it, you learned or at least hoaned your game at the Ohio State courses, and love the Scarlet as sort of your touchstone home base, no?  I'm going to assume when you were a student in the late 60s or early 70s, that you paid a certain reduced green fee to play the Scarlet, and assume it was somewhere less than what a walk-up non-student/faculty would pay.  You played on a course I assume is owned by the STATE!  So, the taxpayers subsidized you, a lowly poor student at the expense of the taxpayers and the retail, presumably more wealthy golfers.  Go ahead and kick me if I'm wrong.  

To further the irony, your love of the game is the love of a game that was conceived as basically a socialist community passtime, where the rudimentary and original courses were played by both the common folk and kings and queens alike, on the common links ground, and any fees were so modest that they only payed a farthing or two to the greenskeeper for minimal maintenance of those common links ground.  Wasn't it finally the Willie Parks and the like that started to move the game to other not suitable to much else sort of ground, paying little to nothing for the land that then spread to heathland and such.  But, like Mike Y., says, all of which were designed and intended not to make $$$$ but to provide more places for the game to be enjoyed.  Then, as wealth came more into the criteria to build new courses, not on common ground, did the private funds of a private club come into being, thus dues to buy and build courses, and then after that private money to build and charge common folk in open to public fee participation...  So Lou, you love a game that was conceived as socialist!!!  :o ::) ;)

And Lou, is there not many inhabitants of this forum page that have played many a fine course on a raters card, for free!!!!  Are they not is some way benefiting and enjoying a leg up on the common folk to play a king's game on a low budget?  Not that the raters aren't performing a vital service to all of the society of golf.  I don't know what we did before the rating game... oh yeah, we read Bernard Darwin and the like to imagine what the fine courses might be like and decide if we pined to play there... Never mind that 'some' raters always offer to pay, then get comp'd, that game is well known.

Finally, what about the invitation by a wealthy or forutunate club member to play a highly covetted course?  Oh sure, the guest most often pays the member, a guest fee (not always).  But, still aren't many of those guest fees artificially low for the cost of the maintenance and overhead, whereby if it were a fully public course that relied solely on the guest green fee, the place wouldn't be viable.  And, it still has an element of the wealthy member subsidizing the invitee to a bit of an absurd extent trying to make the analogy, IMHO.  

Lou, don't give up the game as a matter of 'teaparty principle due to it's origin in 'socialism', taxpayer subsidy of a recreation, or intent not to make $$$$ at it's core foundations.  ::) ;) ;D 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Steve Wilson

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Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #94 on: October 20, 2009, 02:31:06 PM »
R. J.,

Thanks for the kind words, but after your first sentence I think I'll disassociate myself from your remarks.  I'm not sure they are made up of whole cloth, but they're at least a polyester cotton blend.  (Insert cheesy emoticons here).




Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #95 on: October 20, 2009, 03:17:14 PM »
RJ,

Exasperation would not be how I would describe my current mental state.  Terribly worried about the future of this country?  Yes. Melancholy about the prospects of the average person?  Yep.  Surprised that the golf industry and many of our common friends face a particularly grim environment?  Not really, but I am not about to make excuses or otherwise support the policies which contribute to the sad state of affairs.

I'll allow our words and arguments to demonstrate who is exasperated.  I know Dick, those of us who don't buy into the Big Labor/Big Government/Socialist agenda must by necessity be angry, hateful, exasperated, greedy sophists whose every thought is malevolent and each utterance is but rant or screed in the making.  Perhaps I am wrong, but I think it is more effective to address the issues on their individual merits.

It is news to me that the origins of the game were socialist, or that playing the Scarlet course on a $100 per year subscription was somehow contradictory or incongruent with believing that government should restrict its focus on the relatively few functions enumerated in the Constitution.  As to comp rounds when I was a rater and from which you once benefited while playing with me, I am at a loss as to what it has to do with the subject matter.  Perhaps like many on your side, you seem to conflate opportunity and outcome.  As I am often reminded on the golf course these days, only in the eyes of God were we all created equal.

 

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #96 on: October 20, 2009, 03:24:42 PM »
Quote
(Insert cheesy emoticons here).

We folks in 'dairyland' Wisconsin, are always prone to insert cheese where ever possible. --->  ;D

Steve, would you agree that many successful commercial enterprises in the world are conceived to make $, not $$$$?  Are succesful enterprises outside of our U.S. sphere of social/political institutions successful in staying economically viable due to lower profit expectations, lower executive compensation demands, and a willingness to share the enterprise costs and benefits with their populations more widely?  Where is the line in enterprises that are conceived to make $$$$$$ and just $ or $$ or something significantly under $$$$$?  

Do you believe golf was meant to be shared as a passtime of good and merit of health and vigorous outdoor lifestyle for the many, or the few; and was cost and profit a significant consideration of the founders of the game?  Were they socialist values and shared community resources oriented in that regard, or Darwinian capitalists when it came to golf and the provisions for golf and access to golf within their communities?  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

RJ_Daley

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Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #97 on: October 20, 2009, 03:48:14 PM »
Lou, your post #67 was a view that is well stated, but highly political and full of conservative ideology.  Since we are not all of the same view in that regard, it was one that begged another view- IMHO, thus we are here again.   

Yes, I have been subsidized as a golfer in many ways; and I know it.  Do you?

Mike wants to know if golf was conceived to make $$$$$.  Steve observes that it is apparent to him that it was probably more conceived to make $, and the inheirent costs to produce golf mitigate against the $$$$$ in most cases.  IMO, golf as it was conceived was literally more on a model of community/social values, intended for the many for enjoyment. Thats about it...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Steve Wilson

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Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #98 on: October 20, 2009, 06:20:53 PM »
R. J.,

I didn't intend to get in the midst of a GCA food fight.  I was just trying to make a point in a humorous way using the $ as an audio visual aid.  That being said, since you're someone I shared the back nine at Long Shadow with,  I'll play for one round, meaning I'll address your questions but I'm not going to do the revolving door thing.

Quote
(Insert cheesy emoticons here).

We folks in 'dairyland' Wisconsin, are always prone to insert cheese where ever possible. --->  ;D

Steve, would you agree that many successful commercial enterprises in the world are conceived to make $, not $$$$?

I would offer that virtually all successful commercial enterprises are conceived to make $.  If you don't make $ to begin with you won't survive to make $$$$$.   $$$$$ comes through volume.  Why do you think we have so many conversations on here about growing the game.


Are succesful enterprises outside of our U.S. sphere of social/political institutions successful in staying economically viable due to lower profit expectations, lower executive compensation demands, and a willingness to share the enterprise costs and benefits with their populations more widely? 

 I think we call that subsidization.  But I'm not sure there are currently any successful enterprises outside of our sphere of influence just yet.   

Where is the line in enterprises that are conceived to make $$$$$$ and just $ or $$ or something significantly under $$$$$? 

I don'r know.  You don't know.  And none of the looters who pass themselves off as public servants know either.  But at least I know I don't know and I think you are honest enough to admit you don't know either.  But the envy driven power hungry people in politics all over the world will push it as far as they can. 


Do you believe golf was meant to be shared as a passtime of good and merit of health and vigorous outdoor lifestyle for the many, or the few; and was cost and profit a significant consideration of the founders of the game?

To begin with:  at the time of the origins of the game vigorous outdoor lifestyle was known as survival.  There weren't too many lab workers or policemen (to enumerate two occupations that you and I can identify with) who thought about what they were going to do with their leisure time.  Hell, even the clerks, primarily the religious orders, toiled in the fields.  At the time of the origins of the game I would estimate that over 90% of the population either farmed or fished.

Cost was certainly a consideration, because until the guttie came along the game was too expensive for any but the upper classes.  Tom Morris and Allen Robertson fell out over Old Tom abandoning the feathery for the guttie.  So, I guess Robertson was concerned with profit.  Of course, like so many, he didn't realize that by growing the game with gutties, there would be more demand for clubs.   
There's that volume thing.

And let's not forget the red coats that were required for golfers to wear at one time when playing the game.  Since the game was played on common ground, you had to give warning that you were playing golf.  And back then, you shouted "Fore" prior to striking the ball rather than waiting until you determined that your ball was on a collision course with an unsuspecting non-golfer.  The purchase, either though money or labor,  of a coat to play a game wasn't something most families had within their budget 



  Were they socialist values and shared community resources oriented in that regard, or Darwinian capitalists when it came to golf and the provisions for golf and access to golf within their communities? 
   
Since James II tried to ban golf in the fifteenth century, it's a wee bit anachronistic to assign either socialist or Darwinism to the origins of golf.  Given the system of government, I think we'd have to inquire if the origins were in monarchy or feudalism--although I'm not certain that the Norman style of governance had reached  Scotland by the time (c. 1150 AD) golf reared its comely head among the  dunes  of Fife.   The feudal thing doesn't work so well with your inquiry about the contrasting systems, but there was considerable equality among the serfs.  And that's as far as I intend to travel down this road.     
Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #99 on: October 20, 2009, 07:29:24 PM »
This thread has taken a rather bizarre turn.  What in the world does golf or its origins have to do with political/economic theory? 

It seems clear to me that where money is made in golf is in the business of golf, not the game itself.  Why else do we have all the folks involved in the business wanting to see the "game grow".  What they really mean to say is they want the business of the game to grow.  The building of courses is a by-product of that growth.   

Okay, so the industry got carried away much like many other sectors of the economy got carried away.  Okay, so the business of the game will shrink.  Its not the end of golf.  People with money will still want to waste it on golf extras.  That will never change and there are plenty of opportunities to do so.  People with some money will look to enjoy golf on a budget.  That will never change and there are plenty of opportunities to do so.  The only thing which changes are the numbers.  Models don't change - we have seen it all before.  Its people's attitudes and circumstances which change. 

Ciao
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