Walking in the UK versus Walking in South Carolina

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mike this has been an interesting in the mirror discussion for years. I can walk 54 at Bandon, though being one beer from horrizontal afterwards. Walking 36 in the UK or Northeast US is a just another day in life. However walking 18 in the south is a mountain I cannot climb. I sometimes walk 6 or 9 in the evening. Even then I m pouring sweat and stagger in. There is humidity in those areas especially along the coast. There is something about that last 5 to 10 percent of humidity that is where the rub is.

[Phil_the_Author]

Michael,

One of these days I must head up your way and not only say hello but to support you in your noble cause and play a round with you in a cart. I work very hard trying on my treadmill to get into better shape, yet especially after a minor heart attack, open-heart surgery, diabetes, spinal fusion surgery and lack of sleep, and I refuse to give up swinging agolf club and hitting that little white ball simply because "cart golf" is anathema to some.

I play rarely for a variety of reasons, yet if I get a round or two under my belt I still can score fairly well at times and enjoy it immensely even when I can't!

Just as we recom,mend that not everyone should paly from the same set of tee markers, there are some who can legitimately enjoy the game only or primarily by playing with a cart.

What is also forgotten is that even for some who stubborn themselves through a round they usually pay a very high price for the following few days as their body rebels from the exertion... Still, I stubbornly trudged my way around the Black last October to an 86. Loved it of course and suffered with nice memories for several days thereafter...

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bill

I have played golf in Brazil (although not on a proper course, near Belem), India (Calcutta), Burma (Rangoon), Nigeria (Jos), Jamaica to name a few hot and humid sites. Walking never, never was a consideration, actually there was no option, walk or don’t play. I think I have the knowledge, experience and have earned the right to comment. I have even used a cart a few times in my younger days so also have the right to speak from my experience.

I feel one needs to try things first before commenting otherwise you have little to base you opinion upon.

Surprising what one can get use to if one can be bothered to preserver, for some the game is in and part of the Walking, to others it’s just a ride with the Devil.

I shall be seeing him soon enough so do not want to ride with him before my time. 

Melvyn

[Bill_McBride]

Bill

I have played golf in Brazil (although not on a proper course, near Belem), India (Calcutta), Burma (Rangoon), Nigeria (Jos), Jamaica to name a few hot and humid sites. Walking never, never was a consideration, actually there was no option, walk or don’t play. I think I have the knowledge, experience and have earned the right to comment. I have even used a cart a few times in my younger days so also have the right to speak from my experience.

I feel one needs to try things first before commenting otherwise you have little to base you opinion upon.

Surprising what one can get use to if one can be bothered to preserver, for some the game is in and part of the Walking, to others it’s just a ride with the Devil.

I shall be seeing him soon enough so do not want to ride with him before my time. 

Melvyn

Melvyn, golf in those tropic climes was why the British invented the gin and tonic.

Golf carts weren't an option then, now they are.  I saw golf carts at Crail - driven by healthy young bucks - and cringed.  I will bet that there are golf carts in India today.  I don't like it, you don't like it, but that's the way it is.

I will continue to ride in Pensacola Florida during the summer and I will continue to walk when in the UK in the summer.  The rest of the year I will walk whenever possible.

Even the Great Crusades eventually came to an end.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bill

Are our guys still fighting out in the middle east, some claim we are still fighting the crusades - not the end but perhaps the end of the beginning

Melvyn

[Jud_T]

Michael, I'm with you on this.  I love walking with a caddy when it's not hot and humid...otherwise I ride...My knees just can't take carrying or even a pullcart at this point.  Unfortunately we all don't live on the English seaside....

[Wayne_Kozun]

I haven't played in the south in the summer, but even here in Canada in can be 95 degrees and 90% humidity in July and that has never caused me to want to take a cart.  I understand that for some people a cart is a necessity but for most cart-ballers it is a case of laziness.  When I make my FU money and build my own course you will require a doctors note to get a cart.

[Sean_A]

I haven't played in the south in the summer, but even here in Canada in can be 95 degrees and 90% humidity in July and that has never caused me to want to take a cart.  I understand that for some people a cart is a necessity but for most cart-ballers it is a case of laziness.  When I make my FU money and build my own course you will require a doctors note to get a cart.

I have experienced the same thing (and worse) in Michigan, but have walked off after 9 holes more than once because it was so uncomfortable - and this was twenty years ago.

I agree that weather should and does dictate when to play.  For instance, I would never plan a golfing trip to the south in the summer.  It seems just as much as a no go to me as planning a golfing trip to Michigan in the winter.  That said, I don't really care if a guy takes a cart unless I am playing with him.  In which case, I would normally always join him to be sociable.  Why do people get so upset by carts?  I don't like them, but they are easy to avoid and none of us has to play cart courses.  Live and let live.

Ciao  

[Scott Warren]

Why do people get so upset by carts?  I don't like them, but they are easy to avoid and none of us has to play cart courses.  Live and let live.

Ciao 

Perhap the best comment re: carts I have read in a long time.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Scott

"Live and let live"  Perhaps in your opinion, but certainly not mine when it comes to carts.

Sean
From carts come the cart paths
Carts destroy the course quicker that walkers
Where the hell was the car before WW2 so why is it given the priority to Walkers
In addition, let’s not forget the ‘No Walking Courses’ total discrimination against the Game of Golf.

The real problem is that many courses are being built on the wrong location, in the wrong environment for golf courses to flourish naturally. Money not the game is the priority in these places. So to play a round of golf many feel or need to resort to using a cart.  Also by including carts in a design, courses can be easily stretched to well over 7,500 yds plus. Simple case of SOD the Walker, he/she have over the last decade or so become a poor relative or a second-class citizen in the World of Golf.  Also, the days are numbered for 36 holes in a day by lengthening our courses, not to mention destroying the heart and fun of all our older ones. The cart makes all that possible – The Devil works testing able golfers, who seem happily to fall at the first whiff of the easy life – why these people play golf is beyond me.

Carting is not golfing, by minimising their use to those that actually need them may greatly improve the thinking behind locations, locations, locations and course design. But that is a learning curve many do not want to take for their own reasons but I doubt if it is because of their concern for the fate of the Game of Golf.

Melvyn

[Jud_T]

Melvyn,

One other issue that I haven't seen metioned here is that many courses see carts as a source of profits.  Quite often the cart fee can add an additional 15-30% onto the the greens fee, so once the carts are paid for this is gravy.  In some sense this may actually help SUBSIDIZE the walking golfer....

[Scott Warren]

Melvyn, do you have a set argument saved to your desktop that you copy and paste, or do you punch it out fresh each time?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Scott

Interesting view point Scott, it’s OK for you to comment but not that keen on others.

To you and others it may be boring but is it is a very important issue. It has a bearing on course design and may reflect on the natural balance of the course. Just because you may not care, do not think others don’t.
What about a little of ‘Live and Let live’ - perhaps you just being selective again.

Jud

That old one, but what about the initial cost, the initial burden on budget or finances if paid for over years. What about the maintenance of carts and tracks. Think you may find walking is more productive (physically and financially) for all concerned.
 
Melvyn

[Tom MacWood]

Melvyn
How much are you tipping the scales at now?

[Tim Taylor]

Melvyn - what do you mean by "money not the game is the priority in these places?

If someone is spending gobs of money to build and operate a course, what else should the priority be?

It seems to me the only other alternatives are a group of rich guys getting together to build their own course or municipal courses.

Tim

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tim

Do not know why but I feel the Game of Golf should have a major place in all the building work,  if nothing more than to reflect the reason for the course in the first place. Mad I suppose but I thought it was meant to be about golf, you know that game that you walk everwhere.

Melvyn

[Sean_A]

Scott

"Live and let live"  Perhaps in your opinion, but certainly not mine when it comes to carts.

Sean
From carts come the cart paths
Carts destroy the course quicker that walkers
Where the hell was the car before WW2 so why is it given the priority to Walkers
In addition, let’s not forget the ‘No Walking Courses’ total discrimination against the Game of Golf.

The real problem is that many courses are being built on the wrong location, in the wrong environment for golf courses to flourish naturally. Money not the game is the priority in these places. So to play a round of golf many feel or need to resort to using a cart.  Also by including carts in a design, courses can be easily stretched to well over 7,500 yds plus. Simple case of SOD the Walker, he/she have over the last decade or so become a poor relative or a second-class citizen in the World of Golf.  Also, the days are numbered for 36 holes in a day by lengthening our courses, not to mention destroying the heart and fun of all our older ones. The cart makes all that possible – The Devil works testing able golfers, who seem happily to fall at the first whiff of the easy life – why these people play golf is beyond me.

Carting is not golfing, by minimising their use to those that actually need them may greatly improve the thinking behind locations, locations, locations and course design. But that is a learning curve many do not want to take for their own reasons but I doubt if it is because of their concern for the fate of the Game of Golf.

Melvyn

Melvyn

At the risk of stating the obvious, if you don't like a course for whatever reason, don't play it.  Choice is a wonderful concept.

Ciao

[Brent Hutto]

In the US at least, like it or not an integral part of the "reason for the course" involves grown men driving around in aimless circles in motorized kiddie-carts. That would not be integral to any course I would build and certainly not to one Melvyn would build. But there is most certainly a market demand enabling golf course operators to charge money for driving a golf cart on the course and as sure as day follows night there is an industry which has arisen to service that market.

Think of this way if you like. There are people who want to play golf, afoot. There are others who want to drive around a golf course, getting out to hit shots from time to time. It was discovered decades ago that you can build a facility that lets you simultaneously sell into both of those market, subject only to a bit of impotent complaining from walkers about the carts and from cart-riders about the walkers. So that's the predominant paradigm in the USA.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Sean

Choice is a wonderful concept, iyes, if you have it. No course bans carts that I am aware, some just don’t have that facility, but some cart courses ban walking – No Walking Courses - what was that you were saying about ‘Choice is a wonderful concept’

Melvyn

[Lou_Duran]

Brent,

I am unaware of a single golf course which was built with the intent to force walkers to ride because of the difficulty of the walk.  In nearly all the cases that I am familiar with, courses that are difficult to walk result from the topography, the land that the developer makes available to the architect (sometimes to maximizie non-golf real estate revenues) and envrionmental/regulatory requirements.  Owners do not have to incur additional costs for cart paths, bridges, irrigation, signage, etc. to force people to ride.  The vast majority in many parts of the U.S. simply prefer to.  No course is probably easier to walk than my old club Great Southwest GC.  Yet over 70% of the rounds are on carts during the best weather months and probably over 90% in the summer even before riding was made mandatory on weekend mornings during the "tournament season" (daylight savings time).

Likewise, I know no one who plays golf to ride a cart around, save for some kids who don't have to pay for them.  Many golfers, for a variety of reasons, have elected to play golf using carts to get to their next shots.  It is a preference and the only serious problem I have is when the club through edict or peer pressure forces golfers who would rather walk to ride.  While some want to argue that walkers subsidize the riders, I know that it is the other way around.

It would be nuts for a club in these difficult times not to try to accomodate both constituencies.  Those like Great Southwest which are hell-bent on forcing some of its members to buy a product they don't want- the use of a cart- are foregoing needed revenues (the main reason I didn't re-join when I returned to Texas).  Nobody said that all businesses make wise decisions.


Mike Whitaker,

I walked the JackRabbit course at the Champions GC in north Houston a few summers ago, teeing off at 7:30 a.m.  Within a couple of holes I was soaked through my clothes with sweat, and though the temperature probably never got over 85*, I struggled the last nine and developed a severe rash in a very uncomfortable place.  There are places where golf on foot is foolish.  A friend from Dallas who moved to Houston and won the club championship six or seven times in a row at Northgate CC tells me you become acclimated to it.  Though he claims that he normally walks even in the summer mornings, common sense prevailing, the last couple of times when we played he headed straight from the car to the cart staging area. 

 

[Scott Warren]

Scott

Interesting view point Scott, it’s OK for you to comment but not that keen on others.

To you and others it may be boring but is it is a very important issue. It has a bearing on course design and may reflect on the natural balance of the course. Just because you may not care, do not think others don’t.
What about a little of ‘Live and Let live’ - perhaps you just being selective again.

Not at all. I just wonder if you are doing your cause - the basic principles of which I agree petty strongly with, by and large - a massive disservice by your means and frequency of delivering the message. I mean, it's relentless.

Do you expect that the constant bombardment is going to convert cartballers to start "playing golf"? If not, what is the end result you're pursuing?

[Jud_T]

Melvyn,

We got it, you prefer walking....When I retire to St. Andrews, I promise to walk every day with a caddie...In the meantime, when I'm playing in Vegas in August, I'll be in a cart....

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jed

Use a cart , that is down to you but don't call it golf.

Melvyn

[Jud_T]

sorry, Cartballing.  Not sure there's any other option in 105 degree heat....

[Brent Hutto]

Brent,

I am unaware of a single golf course which was built with the intent to force walkers to ride because of the difficulty of the walk.  In nearly all the cases that I am familiar with, courses that are difficult to walk result from the topography, the land that the developer makes available to the architect (sometimes to maximizie non-golf real estate revenues) and envrionmental/regulatory requirements.  Owners do not have to incur additional costs for cart paths, bridges, irrigation, signage, etc. to force people to ride.  The vast majority in many parts of the U.S. simply prefer to.  No course is probably easier to walk than my old club Great Southwest GC.  Yet over 70% of the rounds are on carts during the best weather months and probably over 90% in the summer even before riding was made mandatory on weekend mornings during the "tournament season" (daylight savings time).

I wasn't trying to claim otherwise, perhaps that was someone else's comment. My only point is that, with some exceptions, there are golfers who think the game is naturally played afoot and others who think it is just as naturally played in a cart. I know plenty of people who would not even consider playing any course, no matter how flat the terrain or how amenable the weather, if it meant not being in a cart. Seems a little odd to me but it is certainly the case.

Of course there are places where you coudn't build a walkable course if you wanted to. That's not really something I was commenting on but I don't disagree. There may not be courses which were built with the intention of excluding walkers (other than the ones like you mention where it comes with the terrain) but there are certainly many courses around here that are as walkable as any golf course could possibly be yet they will not let me play without a cart under any circumstances on a weekend morning. That is a business decision to exclude walkers under a (misguided IMO) apprehension that if they let me walk it will make other people want to walk and that will cut into their ability to rent carts.

One of those courses (Crickentree in Blythewood, SC) is a semi-private to which I subscribed for one summer. They were really beating the bushes for players and offered a very attractive monthly membership. After three months I got a letter in the mail saying that effective immediately playing the course without a cart would not be allowed. The reason given was that several people had joined recently (myself included) who walked every weekend. This was causing people who had formerly rented carts to start wanting to walk themselves. When I offered to pay the cart fee for each round I walked I was told that they would still lose money because seeing me walk would cause other people to complain and that they would want to walk without paying the fee.

Now obviously those people were and are idiots. They are still desperately seeking players several years later and for all I know they've gone back to allowing walkers. I wouldn't know, life's too short to deal with morons. But my point being, there are certainly courses on which Melvyn and I would not be welcome and it has nothing to do with the weather or the terrain. It seems "obvious' to some people that the best way to maximize revenue is by excluding folks like us, even when the course's tee sheet is chronically far from fully subscribed. Go figure.

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