[Kyle Harris]

A classmate of mine at Rutgers works at North Oaks Golf Club just north of the Twin Cities. I did a cursory glance and saw that it is a Tom Lehman Renovation of a Stanley Thompson. I know nothing else about the course but though some of you may have played it or researched it (Ian?).

He is starting to lurk on here as well, and the aerial looks pretty interesting. How much Thompson is left?

[Jason Topp]

I have been told that not much Thompson remains.  I have had several chances to play the course but have not yet been able to make it work.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I played North Oaks Golf Club yesterday morning for the first time. A very solid Doak 6, I thought the course was a lot of fun with a number of interesting and varied holes. The only repetition on the course can be found in 3 of the 5 par-3's being 225-240 in length. I especially enjoyed holes #3, #7, #9, #10, #14, #16, and #18.

The course is Stanley Thompson's finale and was recently renovated by Tom Lehman. The club has an extensive (300 pictures) photo journal of the reno on their site which includes Lehman's changes/improvements for each hole.

http://www.northoaksgolfclub.com/cma_images/web/newsletters/20092175151Lehman%20Renovation.pdf   

I can't speak to how much of what is there is Lehman or Lehman bringing back Thompson (nor what happened in between) but I'm hoping that Rick Shefchik has included North Oaks in his book and can comment. (I believe he said it was the last course in the book)

What I can say is that the members of North Oaks have a gem of a course with a number of interesting holes to play day in and day out.

After seeing the result of Lehman's work here I am even more excited to see what he's done over at Edina Country Club which just opened up this month after his renovation there.

[PCCraig]

Kyle:

Just like Patrick's comments above, most people really enjoy North Oaks up here. I've gone through the slideshow linked above and I would recommend it to anyone interested in renovations as it's really extensive.

[Ian Andrew]

It's not the last project. In fact there are a few afterwards.

Here's the list I have verified:

1949

Fundy National Park (9 holes)

North Oaks (U.S.)
There are pictures of him on site and multiple references
"Stan Thompson, leading Canadian golf architect has been commissioned to build a course in St. Paul, Minnesota, on the family estate of Jim Hill the early railroad builder of the USA. Looks like one of those blank cheque affairs of which Stan seems to get his share over the years both here and in South America."  (Winnipeg Free Press - October 27, 1951)

Moncton Golf Club
1963 article references “12 holes of the present layout built under the supervision of Stanley Thompson” (John Westenholme article for ?)
1951

Marathon (Now Peninsula GC) (9 holes)

1952

Sault Ste. Marie
Matt Thompson handled everything and Stanley died in the middle of the work


He was heading to South America the day after he died

[Jeff Shelman]

I haven't played it post-renovation, but it is a pretty good golf course.

I don't love the super severe change in elevation on 1 and 18, but there are a number of good holes out there.

It would be a very fine place to be a member.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

It's not the last project. In fact there are a few afterwards.

Here's the list I have verified:

1949

Fundy National Park (9 holes)

North Oaks (U.S.)
There are pictures of him on site and multiple references
"Stan Thompson, leading Canadian golf architect has been commissioned to build a course in St. Paul, Minnesota, on the family estate of Jim Hill the early railroad builder of the USA. Looks like one of those blank cheque affairs of which Stan seems to get his share over the years both here and in South America."  (Winnipeg Free Press - October 27, 1951)

Moncton Golf Club
1963 article references “12 holes of the present layout built under the supervision of Stanley Thompson” (John Westenholme article for ?)
1951

Marathon (Now Peninsula GC) (9 holes)

1952

Sault Ste. Marie
Matt Thompson handled everything and Stanley died in the middle of the work


He was heading to South America the day after he died

Thanks for the correction. I was just going off of the 3rd result on google search of "Stanley Thompson Golf Courses" which led me to this "definitive" list that had North Oaks as the last.   http://thecaddyshack.blogspot.com/2007/01/stanley-thompsons-new-course-designs.html

[Dan Kelly]

Unless I'm misreading: North Oaks appears to be the last 18-hole course Thompson completed.

[Rick Shefchik]

Construction on North Oaks began in the summer of 1950, and the course held its grand opening in August 1951. Thompson died broke in Guelph, Ontario, in 1953, his debts far outnumbering his assets. He certainly could have started several new projects after designing North Oaks; I don't know if any were completed in his lifetime.

There is plenty of Stanley Thompson left at North Oaks. The routing is completely Thompson; Lehman told me that his mission at North Oaks was to restore as much of Thompson's strategic philosophy as he could. He thought the greens were the course's strongest feature and believed they had been left more or less intact over the years. He wanted to restore the playing corridors, which he felt had been changed over the years and gone away from the strategy of how best to approach the greens. I've played it since the renovation, and I think Lehman's work there was a big success.

[Dan Kelly]

... I think Lehman's work there was a big success.

Not to give you a major assignment (!), but: Where did you notice the changes?

[Rick Shefchik]

I think I'd answer that with a negative -- I didn't notice much that was obviously different or out of place. I had only played the course twice, over a good spread of years, before seeing the Lehman renovation. I'm not sure I would have known that every hole on the course had been worked on. From studying his sketches, I know he took out some bunkers, added others, removed some trees and altered some tees, but the old features weren't etched into my memory. I liked the new fairway bunkers on 4, 6 and 12, but by and large I think he just emphasized the good parts of the course's original personality.

[Ian Andrew]

Thompson died broke in Guelph, Ontario, in 1953, his debts far outnumbering his assets. He certainly could have started several new projects after designing North Oaks; I don't know if any were completed in his lifetime.

Actually, he did not die broke. They were living at the Cutten Club at Dormy House. His wife found out she had to declare bankrupcy "after" his death. Creditors came calling upon the news. Your correct about the debts. Helen lost Dormy House immediately, Pat Howitt (step daughter whom I have interviewed with the Judge) recalled having to leave almsot immediatly after his death. Her future husband (The Judge) was the executor of the will.

Not that it matters, but he died in Toronto. He had the aneurysm at the Royal York and lasted three more days before dying in hospital.

He did complete Fundy in the final years of his career (Pat talked about regular train trips to there and other courses), but Sault Ste. Marie was part way through when he passed. His brother Matt finished the work - some have speculated he have had a larger role than that.

Rick, I only posted this for clarity, your facts are right.

[Rick Shefchik]

Thank you, Ian. I had recently read a Thompson biography as part of my research on North Oaks (a book I've returned to the owner) and was going from memory. I appreciate your clarification.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I haven't played it post-renovation, but it is a pretty good golf course.

I don't love the super severe change in elevation on 1 and 18, but there are a number of good holes out there.

It would be a very fine place to be a member.

I'm curious, was there something particular about the steep slope on 1+18 at North Oaks or just steep slopes in general?

I thought it worked well on both holes as 18 is a short (485 yard) par-5 and the slope offers a good risk/reward. It reminded me a lot of 18 at Calusa Pines actually and both offer a good opportunity for birdie.

[Jeff Shelman]

I don't know what it is about the steep slope that got me. I think some of it is that there a good number of solid golf holes at North Oaks and for it to end like that is something of a letdown.

I think too many golfers there are forced to hit a shot off of a really severe upslope. I don't mind severe elevated greens/holes -- you mentioned on Twitter 18 at Interlachen -- if a golfer has a choice of whether they want to be left with that kind of shot. In my recollection 18 at North Oaks, there isn't a spot where a golfer could lay up and not have a severe upslope.

I would like the hole more if there was a piece of flat/flatish land aound 75-100 yards from the hole. Then golfers could choose whether they wanted to hit a wood/hybrid as a second shot and risk playing a third from a crazy slope. Or they could hit an iron to a flat spot and then a wedge or short iron of some sort into the green.

I'm not saying my opinion is right or wrong, but that's where I'm at.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I don't know what it is about the steep slope that got me. I think some of it is that there a good number of solid golf holes at North Oaks and for it to end like that is something of a letdown.

I think too many golfers there are forced to hit a shot off of a really severe upslope. I don't mind severe elevated greens/holes -- you mentioned on Twitter 18 at Interlachen -- if a golfer has a choice of whether they want to be left with that kind of shot. In my recollection 18 at North Oaks, there isn't a spot where a golfer could lay up and not have a severe upslope.

I would like the hole more if there was a piece of flat/flatish land aound 75-100 yards from the hole. Then golfers could choose whether they wanted to hit a wood/hybrid as a second shot and risk playing a third from a crazy slope. Or they could hit an iron to a flat spot and then a wedge or short iron of some sort into the green.

I'm not saying my opinion is right or wrong, but that's where I'm at.

It is kind of interesting as you point out the last flat spot is about 130+ out from the green. I was playing with a friend that is going to be competing in the US Am qualifier there in two weeks and we were discussing that there really is no where to lay up instead of going for it. But on the flip-side the steep slope also gives the hole some teeth for being so short of a par-5

[Jeff Shelman]

I like holes that have risk-reward if there's an alternate safe play. I don't like holes where a risky play is the only option.

And if a hole has to get its teeth from a massive slope, I don't think it's a very good hole.

It's kind of a shame since there are a bunch of good holes out there.

[Rick Shefchik]

I like holes that have risk-reward if there's an alternate safe play. I don't like holes where a risky play is the only option.

And if a hole has to get its teeth from a massive slope, I don't think it's a very good hole.

It's kind of a shame since there are a bunch of good holes out there.

Jeff, I agree with your philosophy as it applies to holes #1 and #9 at St. Croix National. If you've ever played there, you know that hill is beyond ridiculous. And I know it's just a matter of opinion about #1 and #18 at North Oaks, but that hill is not as steep, and those holes work for me.

[Jeff Shelman]

Rick,

I cannot believe you brought up the name of that golf course. I loathe that place. Horrible golf course. Will never play it again.

I don't hate 18 at North Oaks. But I do think it is flawed and it is certainly an unfortunate finishing hole.

[Dan Kelly]

I like holes that have risk-reward if there's an alternate safe play. I don't like holes where a risky play is the only option.

And if a hole has to get its teeth from a massive slope, I don't think it's a very good hole.

Where's the risk at North Oaks 18? And what's the risk???

North Oaks 18 seems to me to be one of those Execution Holes. Hit the shots, and you're rewarded with a chance at birdie. Don't hit them, and the hole is a tough par.

But I don't see any risk on that hole -- other than the risk of infinite putting if they put the hole in the wrong place. (Saw it once. A friend putting up the green had the ball return to his feet half a dozen times. N.B. This was before the Lehman re-do.)

I like North Oaks 18.

[David Lott]

It looks like they lost a lot of lake views over the years as trees grew up. That has happened on other Thompson courses, as I understand it. Why did they not try to restore some views?

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