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Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
the most eco-friendly course in Florida?
« on: October 16, 2009, 12:05:06 PM »
That is what the following article says about a proposed 9-hole course in Florida by Terry Lagree:

Title:  Barbaron to design and build 9-hole Fla. course
URL:  http://www.golfcourseindustry.com/news/news.asp?ID=5516

Text of article:

Barbaron Inc., of Crystal River, Fla., a golf course renovation, design, consulting and construction company has been selected by River Lodge Resort in northern Citrus County to design and build what they believe will be Florida's most eco-friendly golf course. The new 9-hole golf course will be one of the many amenities planned for the high-end, 500 RV resort.

Golf course architect Terry LaGree of Barbaron, will design the new golf course and create the master plan. The exciting new course will incorporate the latest environmentally friendly technology including the Softrak Commercial System from Harmony Links Golf for synthetic turf greens and tees. These greens will provide perfect putting surfaces 365 days a year with no water or fertilizer needed. The rest of the course will have 25 acres or less of irrigated turf with Paspalum grass. The course expects to have greatly reduced maintenance costs due to the design and materials used in the construction.

Architect LaGree says that the finishing 9th hole will be an island green and the course will be one that all golfers will enjoy playing. LaGree says, “The design will reflect an enjoyable quality golf experience on the most eco-friendly course in Florida”.

LaGree, a principle in Barbaron has designed and built many notable courses. Some of LaGree’s courses include; Royal Oaks in Ocala, Fla., Skyview at Terra Vista in Hernando, Fla., Sanctuary Ridge formerly Diamond Players Club in Clermont, Fla, and Jack Frost National at Boulder Creek Resorts in Blakeslee, Pa.
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Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the most eco-friendly course in Florida?
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2009, 12:28:45 PM »
No mention of the draining of the swamp where the golf course will soon sit or the environmental impact of the plastic that was used for the "synthetic" greens and tees.

Just another case of marketing without substance.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the most eco-friendly course in Florida?
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2009, 12:34:13 PM »
Some guys in Colorado tried to do this....with the exception of it being wall to wall turf, not just tees and greens

I'm not sure what the status is but would be interesting to see if they have full functioning course up and running.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the most eco-friendly course in Florida?
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2009, 12:35:56 PM »
Some guys in Colorado tried to do this....with the exception of it being wall to wall turf, not just tees and greens

I'm not sure what the status is but would be interesting to see if they have full functioning course up and running.

I've heard of that before, I think its called putt putt.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jason Connor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the most eco-friendly course in Florida?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2009, 02:38:58 PM »
How can it be putt-putt if:

Architect LaGree says that the finishing 9th hole will be an island green and the course will be one that all golfers will enjoy playing. LaGree says, “The design will reflect an enjoyable quality golf experience on the most eco-friendly course in Florida”.


I mean who hasn't enjoyed playing a course with an island green!?



We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the most eco-friendly course in Florida?
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2009, 03:03:41 PM »
How can it be putt-putt if:

Architect LaGree says that the finishing 9th hole will be an island green and the course will be one that all golfers will enjoy playing. LaGree says, “The design will reflect an enjoyable quality golf experience on the most eco-friendly course in Florida”.


I mean who hasn't enjoyed playing a course with an island green!?





I wonder if they'll use gas in the boat to get to and from the island ??? ::)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the most eco-friendly course in Florida?
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2009, 03:33:14 PM »
Will the course offset all of the pollution that results from 500 RVs driving to and from the place?

I heard it is walking only - but if you can't walk on water you have to swim to the green - watch out for gators.

No wait, they have solar powered carts designed by "Q" from James Bond fame so you can just drive to the island green.

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the most eco-friendly course in Florida?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2009, 04:05:58 PM »
You guys are so quick to raise your nose at something like this and fire away. It's a 9 holer being built for the enjoyment of vacationing families for christ sake. It's a course being built for the enjoyment of vacationers by a barely known architect at a RV campground so of course you'll fire away. Is it not good enough for you? Should they have a minimalist Archie do the job? Should it have classic template holes and strategy? Would it be good enough it they used real grass greens and tees? Should it not even be built at all?

It's a course meant to provide some fun at a campground, and in the process they made a super intelligent decision to be as friendly to the environment as possible and keep overhead costs down. It wasn't meant to be played and critiqued by douchey golf architecture snob afficianados. Which by the way worship courses that have far worse impacts on the environment than a simple RV 9 holer will. Good for them, the project and business model seem like a home run. 

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the most eco-friendly course in Florida?
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2009, 08:32:10 PM »
A couple things come to mind:

1)  I never questioned the quality of the course, only its environmental friendliness. 
2)  If we are "douchey" golf architecture snobs on this site, why are you here?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the most eco-friendly course in Florida?
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2009, 09:01:57 PM »
On what basis are you questioning it's environmental friendliness and how does that differ from any regulation course that gets built and worshiped on here.

I don't consider myself a snob when I can recognize efforts of a RV park owner wanting to add to his customers experience by adding a 9 hole golf course, and when doing it making sure it's overhead is low and environmentally sound. I can see that, take it for what it is and applaud it.

If you're questioning it's environmental impact then let us in on all the details you have on that site and why it needs to be questioned. Otherwise take it for being a cheap mom and pop RV 9 banger that's making an effort to be Eco conscious.


Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the most eco-friendly course in Florida?
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2009, 09:06:14 PM »
I have never played a shot to a synthetic turf green. How does the ball react?

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the most eco-friendly course in Florida?
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2009, 09:11:53 PM »
I have never played a shot to a synthetic turf green. How does the ball react?

Kinda douchey, I hear.....

( Sorry, I have no real world experience on synthetic)

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the most eco-friendly course in Florida?
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2009, 09:17:00 PM »
JC, when you have a quote like yours, referring to MB as K-Mart by the sea, it's hard to take you for more than a snob.  I have to go with Ian on this one, if it matters.  In a time when golf is suffering, why criticize this endeavor?  I've played Legree's Sanctuary Ridge (formerly Diamond Players Club) and it is one interesting course.  Moving as it does through an enormous neighborhood in Clermont, half the folks on this site would love it and half would not.  It has some very memorable holes, some architecturally sound holes, and a few head scratchers.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the most eco-friendly course in Florida?
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2009, 09:51:34 PM »
On what basis are you questioning it's environmental friendliness and how does that differ from any regulation course that gets built and worshiped on here.

I don't consider myself a snob when I can recognize efforts of a RV park owner wanting to add to his customers experience by adding a 9 hole golf course, and when doing it making sure it's overhead is low and environmentally sound. I can see that, take it for what it is and applaud it.

If you're questioning it's environmental impact then let us in on all the details you have on that site and why it needs to be questioned. Otherwise take it for being a cheap mom and pop RV 9 banger that's making an effort to be Eco conscious.



You're kind of all over the map so I'll try to address your comments separately:

1)  Call me a cynic but I question a lot of the "environmental" marketing because there simply is no readily ascertainable definition or standard for environmental friendliness.  A couple of things come to mind though:

a.  My assumption is that these "synthetic" green surfaces are partly, if not mostly, plastic.  Plastic is one of the least if not the least environmentally products out there.  It has limited recycling capabilities (it can only be recycled 7 times - hence the numbers on the bottom of plastic, thats where it is in the cycle - before its done) and it is a petroleum based product that takes a significant amount of energy to produce.

b.  Its a Florida course, near the coast that may or may not be a site naturally habitable for a golf course.  Many courses down here sit on land that was drained to provide suitable land for a course disturbing many of the natural habitats and wetlands.  This is why the State has made a proactive effort of late to designate hundreds of thousands of acres of land as "preserve" to try and help mitigate the damage caused by development.

c.  As a general note, as more research is done it turns out that some efforts to mitigate environmental impact are successful in their focus but end up generating negative externalities.  For example, there is a recent article in the New York Times that discusses how the curbing of air pollution from coal factories as negatively affected the water supply in those areas because the pollution is being taken from the air, liquified and put into the ground.  Ethanol is another example.  It turns out that net environmental impact of Ethanol, when the energy to grow the corn, ship the corn and produce the ethanol is taken into consideration, is actually worse that standard unleaded gasoline.  Many claims of "eco-friendliness" dont take into account the environmental impact of the substitute.

The point of the above is that certainly a reduction in fertilizers, chemicals, maintenance is a reduction in impact, but if it is off set by other things that negate that reduction then the course will not be as environmentally friendly as advertised. 

2)  With respect to the course's environmental friendliness versus "other courses that are worshiped on here," I have no idea and have expressed no opinion on that matter.  Additionally, I have made no attempt to differentiate any other course that is not "worshiped on here" and I'm not sure whether a course is "worshiped on here" or not has anything to do with this conversation because I made no mention of any course BUT this one.  Moreover, I can assure you that if Tom Doak were to claim he was building [insert state here]'s most "eco-friendly" course, I'd ask him to substantiate it or I'd call it out for being marketing without substance, the same thing I did here.

3)  I dont consider you a snob either.  Nor do I consider the fact that this is a 9 hole course owned by an RV park relevant to the discussion.  Any attempt to twist my comments on the course's environmental friendliness into some indictment on the ownership or customers of this course is ridiculous.  Although if you criticize Tiger Woods on this website you are racist, so I guess I should know better.

As an aside, Ronald, the quote in my signature isnt mine.  In fact I properly cite the source of the quote.  Feel free to take me as a snob if you want to but I'm pretty sure we haven't met.  If you want to make a judgment of my personality based upon my reference to a quote made by someone else on this site, well then I guess you are entitled to do that.

And if there was anyone who was a snob on this thread its Hancock.  I mean who but the elite of the elite drink guiness every 3 holes?  I can only afford bud light.... ;)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the most eco-friendly course in Florida?
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2009, 10:01:46 PM »
I gotta believe (and it is just a belief, not data) that the environmental costs of producing and transporting 18 nearly maintenance free plastic greens is miniscule compared to 1) the 2 stroke engines required to cut the greens almost every day, 2) the amount of watering needed during grow in and maintenance, 3) having perhaps one less maintenance crew person driving back and forth to the course every day, 4) the pesticides and fertilizers that would be used on the real grass greens.  The same goes, to a lesser extent for the tees.  Why talk about the greens not being recyclable?  In the event that the course becomes NLE, that artificial turf is reusable for other courses or other landscaping.

How the artificial greens and tees play compared to real grass is another question, but this may be part of the future of golf. 

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the most eco-friendly course in Florida?
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2009, 10:06:29 PM »
I gotta believe (and it is just a belief, not data) that the environmental costs of producing and transporting 18 nearly maintenance free plastic greens is miniscule compared to 1) the 2 stroke engines required to cut the greens almost every day, 2) the amount of watering needed during grow in and maintenance, 3) having perhaps one less maintenance crew person driving back and forth to the course every day, 4) the pesticides and fertilizers that would be used on the real grass greens.  The same goes, to a lesser extent for the tees.  Why talk about the greens not being recyclable?  In the event that the course becomes NLE, that artificial turf is reusable for other courses or other landscaping.

How the artificial greens and tees play compared to real grass is another question, but this may be part of the future of golf. 

I think those are legitimate arguments and something I'd like the course to produce more information on.  Essentially doing what I initially asked for, substantiating their marketing claims.  I'd be willing to change my opinion if what you argued above was true.

Thanks for bringing up legit counter arguments without making ad hominem attacks. 
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

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