[Josh Stevens]

Played the old earlier this week - i have played it before but perhaps i am now casting a more critical eye, but i found the grrens rather second rate.

I like the course in general, although i do find it vastly overrated - good but not great. some fabulous holes, but by and large it seems to me to be a cross country course, some lovely rolling country to navigate across, but  every green was pretty flat and almost all perfectly circular.  I think they could have added another dimension to the course by some better green angles and some more internal contouring.


And at teh risk of perhaps being picky, the place seems to have become rather spivvy - the clubhouse is now full of silly memorailia and other unessassary nonsense that makes it looks as though it is trying too hard to prove it is posh.

I think i may take back what i said a few weeks ago about Swinley, i think i now like it better.  Swinley is more fun, wokiing has far  better greens, Hankley is rawer, St Georges Hill is prettier and the Berkshire is classier.  I wonder if the old girl is losing its shine a bit.

[Paul_Turner]

Many of the greens are somewhat lay of the land with tilts for the old fashioned ground game (like 1, 2,3,5, 14 and 18).  Some have a lot of tilt like the 8th and 12th.    there is quite a lot of interior contour at say 7th, 11th and 17th

During the recent Senior's Open event Tom Weiskopf was right in describing how tricky some of the greens are he described the 11th green as like "melted chocolate" and the players were having fits with it.

There have been some undocumented changes to the a green or two though.  The 4th had some wild bumps early on and the 13th had a much bigger hogs back/tier up until at least the 1960s(not sure when that was softened).  

The 9th was altered in the 1980s I think.  And the 11th extended to the left and formed a kind of double plateau until what date I don't know.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Josh- I agree in part. The greens at Sunningdale (as at many older UK courses) are flattish, or at least have a general consistent fall. It is still a wonderfull course though and IMO is the very clear #1 of the Surrey courses. I think there is plenty of fun to be had with many short 4s and the par 3 holes are pretty pictures, easyish apart from 15..there is a tricky finish 16, 17 & 18 and plenty of quirk around the middle.... its not always about the greens, although in general I think the circular greens on the old course sorta suit because it is old fashioned.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Josh maybe its just me that’s picky but instead of starting threads about classic courses where you trash talk them, please write just one whole paragraph in praise about ANY of these courses. You seem so well travelled, there must be one that meets with your seal of approval for at least one measly paragraph? Seriously, it might show us another side of your personality and what you actually LIKE about golf.

BTW  I’m puzzled why you keep making return visits to courses you find so many faults with?

Yes of course I'm just being ironic and yes of course I believe you when you say you are too.

See you! (But hopefully not playing golf). Tony

[Tim Gavrich]

I have certainly seen more aggressively contoured greens than those at Sunningdale Old, but I think that they fit in the context of the rest of the golf course.  Tee to green it is a pretty demanding test, with all the heather and gorse and all.  The greens themselves are pretty small too with a lot of false edges that seem to shove balls off into bunkers and down slopes.  I like them, personally.

[Tom Birkert]

Josh,

I will try to put aside my loyalty and bias and deal with the issues you mentioned.

Sunningdale Old doesn't have elephants buried under the greens. That's not the course. What is does have is some severely contoured greens which don't look to be as sloping as they actually are, along with some very confusing, subtle greens. Were you above the hole on 4? Were you to the left of the hole on 6? Were you anywhere left of the hole on 8? If you've experienced any of those putts, it's almost impossible to stop the ball short of the hole.

If the greens were that flat, I doubt Loren Roberts would, for the first time in his professional career, have had back to back three putts.

I'd be interested to know what you consider the "silly memorabilia and unnecessary nonsense" in the clubhouse. There's a room upstairs with books on all things golf related which is a lovely place to spend time. There is a Bobby Jones room with images from his career and famous round at Sunningdale. There is a picture of Walker Cuppers who were Members, and in the Visitors Changing room there are gifts donated by other fantastic golf clubs. There are historic images from tournaments played at Sunningdale of which the club is, rightly, in my opinion, proud. I've seen other golf clubs - Merion, Oakmont, Shinnecock, Cypress Point etc - all display similar exhibits. Personally I love it as it gives a feel for the history of a club.

I don't know if you were in the Members' Bar or not, but if not you might have been surrounded by a Society which might have given rise to your "spivvy" comment. I can assure you that the club is not trying to prove anything, to anyone.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

Are there a lot of old photos of the courses in the clubhouse?  I haven't been there in quite a few years.

I remember the 10th green too, as having a good deal of break.

[Josh Stevens]

Yes I suppose if i view the greens as being a product of the time rather than as the product of the architects skill - they simply found a bit of ground and mowed it short.  But I still compare to Woking or Deal or other such old courses.  I am happy to conceed, that while flattish, they were certainly not easy - but they neither were really fun, the fun was getting to the green, and that was fun indeed.

Further, can anyone tell me if there has been some bunkering done of late - the 16th had a bunch of fairway bunkers either side of the fairway that I am sure werent there last time i played - they looked a little new, and i must say i wasnt a fan - big deep bastards at the same distance from the tee on both sides of the fairway?

As far as the spivviness, that is merely a matter of personal opinion and not meant to be a criticism, its their club and they are entitled to do as they please - I dont mind a bit of memorabilia but i get the sense they play the ye olde worldy "we are sunningdale" card a bit too hard - a personal view and possibly just a question of degree as i come from an old club where such overt displays are regarded as bit tacky.  Although I did in fact chat to a member friend there and he commented that it had gone down hill a bit as it was being taken over by investment wankers, celebs and their hangers on (Hugh Grant was mentioned). 

Still, i would go back again tomorrow, so why am i complaining.

[Paul_Turner]

Josh

Even if there are somewhat lay of the land, the greens are constructed.  16th bunker work was recently changed by Martin Hawtree.  The center bunker was removed too.

Here's an old aerial pic of the 11th.  I think you can just about make out the double plateau green.  The bunker splits the green.

[Sean_A]

Well, I don't think of Sunny's greens as outstanding, but they aren't boring either.  I don't think you are giving them enough credit for their trickery and as well as how they fit the course wonderfully - that is the slopes make a big difference.  Its been a long time and I need to get back to Sunningdale, my memory is fading.  Sure, Woking's greens are more rollicking, but sometimes that isn't a great thing as they can become more easily readable and not fit well into the surrounds or vice versa.  Thankfully, Woking has some treasures such as the 15th which moves, but is also very sly. 

As for the house, its not my favourite, but its pleasant enough and is certainly in no way disappointing.  What exactly are you looking for in a house? 

As for rating, perhaps I prefer the New (but its been 20 years since I last saw the Old), but both courses are great.  Whether that means they are top 100 in the world, I don't know, but they belong in the conversation.

Ciao

[Philip Gawith]

Josh, I can't argue with your obvious preference for greens with more contour than Sunningdale Old may offer, but I think your first post is overstated. As Paul and others have observed, many of the greens follow the contour of the land or - in Sean's language - are grade level (though by no means all). The first is a great example. This may not be your preferred style, but to leap to the conclusion that they are second-rate is a step too far.

Similarly, i am not sure by what standard you judge it "vastly overrated". To my mind Sunningdale (as a complex) is regarded as probably the pre-eminent heathland golf destination. All the others bring their own character to play, and the overalll variety is the blessing we all enjoy. You can make a decent claim for the merits of the other courses, and I mostly share your assessments, but I think it is difficult to claim that Sunningdale's pre-eminence is some vast error of judgement.

As to the spiv point - you certainly hear it mentioned that over the past decade an undesirable/spiv strain has entered the membership, but I have not really seen evidence of it myself in recent visits, and I don't think you get that feeling in the clubhouse either (albeit, i agree, it is perhaps trying a bit harder than one or two of the Olympian peers you cite.

[Josh Stevens]

Would I join if offered membership? Of course i would - so I guess that answers the question, except for how i would pay for it

But even then i would I think still be casting a jealous eye eastward to Sandwich and Deal.

 All acadedmic of course- the season is coming to a close pretty soon alas, although i hope to fit in Brancaster before it gets too cold.

[Bill_McBride]

Josh, is it true that you had a date with Nicole Kidman and made a comment later about the thickness of her ankles?   

I did love your comment about Sandwich and Deal, I have a new love affair going on there!

[Tony_Muldoon]

For those that missed it the Senior Open was played there the week after the Turnberry affair.
Not bad scoring for a course which has not been lengthened beyond 6600 yards and is the one the members play week in week out. The weather was breezy from memory

scores

http://www.europeantour.com/default.sps?pagegid=%7BAEFB93B0%2DEFF5%2D4C05%2DAB0F%2DFD08D947D944%7D&eventid=2009844&infosid=1

card

http://www.europeantour.com/default.sps?pagegid=%7BAEFB93B0%2DEFF5%2D4C05%2DAB0F%2DFD08D947D944%7D&eventid=2009844&infosid=14

Don't put off planning the trip, one of the great places to play golf.

[Sean Leary]

Would those who have played it say that they are similar in nature to the greens at RCD? Those greens also looked flat and played tricky to me.

[Scott Warren]

I dont mind a bit of memorabilia but i get the sense they play the ye olde worldy "we are sunningdale" card a bit too hard - a personal view and possibly just a question of degree as i come from an old club where such overt displays are regarded as bit tacky. 

Do you not think Sunningdale has a shade more significant history to celebrate than Lake Karrinyup?

[Mike_Clayton]

Scott.

I am missing something here. What has Karrinyup got to do with anything?
What they do have is some fantastic original Alex Russell drawings of his green and bunker design - and they do have a pretty significant history given it is in the most isolated city in the world. Nicklaus and Player winning Australian Opens there for a start.

[Tim Pitner]

It's not my favorite term to begin with, but I have a real problem referring to Sunningdale as a "track." 

[Mark Bourgeois]

Scott.

I am missing something here. What has Karrinyup got to do with anything?
What they do have is some fantastic original Alex Russell drawings of his green and bunker design - and they do have a pretty significant history given it is in the most isolated city in the world. Nicklaus and Player winning Australian Opens there for a start.

If we can ring up Sunningdale as larded with spivs and tacky bric-a-brac on the inside and rimmed with boring greens, why can't we go after Perth, too?  Those Sandgropers are selling out the country to the Chinese!

[Josh Stevens]

Track is purely a colloquial term, you can have good tracks and bad tracks.  Sunningdale is clearly a very good track - but perhaps i pushed the tackiness issue too far, although they did have a few of those little banners showing where they came in recent Golf World rankings - i thouht that was unnecessary.

But yes what has Karrinyup got to do with the argument, we are several million miles away I would have thought?

[Michael Whitaker]

I played Sunningdale on the afternoon of this year's Autumn Gold Medal and I can assure you that there was nothing "second rate" about the greens. Firm and very fast... I don't really see how they could have much more slope or contour and be puttable.

I concur with Tim above, the course is demanding from tee to green and severely contoured greens really would not make sense at Sunningdale. I found the course (and its greens) to be a true championship test and quite a challenge. The Medal was won with a score of 69 (par 70) so the best golfers at the club found it to be a true test as well, with only one beating par.

You must have an exceptional game to consider Sunningdale "overrated."

[Scott Warren]

Scott.

I am missing something here. What has Karrinyup got to do with anything?
What they do have is some fantastic original Alex Russell drawings of his green and bunker design - and they do have a pretty significant history given it is in the most isolated city in the world. Nicklaus and Player winning Australian Opens there for a start.

I mentioned Karrinyup because I understand that is the club Josh was referring to in the section of post I quoted. Given the distance of kilometres, history, cultures and other differences between the London Heathland and Perth, I think it's a bit unfair to criticise Sunningdale's celebration of its history based on what would be considered acceptable 16,000km away in a country where history is not - in my decent experience - as richly valued and time-honoured as it is in England.

Personally, I think the sort of celebrations of history and achievement that you see at Old School English clubs are exceptionally charming, and if I'm honest, I would have been interested to see Josh - as Tony has already noted - go a bit deeper into his reasoning for saying Sunningdale is so overrated. It's interesting to read criticisms of the great courses by people who feel that way, but much more so when they add some weight in detail to their argument.

Track is purely a colloquial term, you can have good tracks and bad tracks.  Sunningdale is clearly a very good track - but perhaps i pushed the tackiness issue too far, although they did have a few of those little banners showing where they came in recent Golf World rankings - i thouht that was unnecessary.

But yes what has Karrinyup got to do with the argument, we are several million miles away I would have thought?

You referenced Karrinyup in Post #7, did you not? Forgive me if I am mistaken.

The underlined part of your post is exactly what I felt, as noted above. We are some distance away in every regard, so to criticise Sunningdale based on what would be acceptable in Perth seems to me like a long bow. Purely my opinion, obviously.

As far as the Top 100 banners, I have not played a UK Top 100 course that didn't have the certificates displayed in the clubhouse or locker rooms. Walton Heath, RSG, North Berwick, RCP, Rye, The Add etc... they all have them on display.

[Adrian_Stiff]

although they did have a few of those little banners showing where they came in recent Golf World rankings - i thouht that was unnecessary.

Its called marketing..if you want business you do it, if you want to keep it all a secret you don't. Rankings, stars, awards are very important to the majority of customers, the majority of business's want customers.

[Gareth Williams]

The O/P is pickiness of the highest order in my humble opinion 

Sunningdale Old is a truly wonderful club and course. There are many knowledgeable players who would, given the choice, take it is their only membership/course/s to play for life.

The greens on the New have more undulation but they are not as "clever" as those on the Old. As for the "spiv element" that is a very bizarre comment!

[PThomas]

And at teh risk of perhaps being picky, the place seems to have become rather spivvy - the clubhouse is now full of silly memorailia and other unessassary nonsense that makes it looks as though it is trying too hard to prove it is posh.

wow ...dont waste your time going to places like Merion and CPC if you dont like looking at historical items

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