"When you come to think of it, that is the secret of most of the great holes all

[Sean_A]

I don't know, Sean, claiming that they were too lazy or inconvenienced to use the correct terms sounds pretty demeaning to me.

This is definitional.  You have a certain modern understanding of the necessary components of a redan hole.  Quite obviously they had different requirements.   Not sure why you think your understanding is superior and should trump theirs.  If these holes didn't qualify under the understanding at that time, they wouldn't have called the holes Redans.  For you to claim they were misapplying the term takes things out of the context within which the term was used.  

These concepts change over time, even when based on specific holes.  A cape hole is no longer a Cape hole and a biarritz isn't a Biarritz (if it ever was.).  Not even dogleg means what it once did.   So why is it so hard for you to accept that their understanding of what constituted a redan is different than yours?  

David

This has nothing to do with trumps, superiority or any other twist you want to put on it.  Its not my idea of what the Redan is.  The Redan is in the ground and so far as I know it is essentially the same today as 100 years ago.  


I will try again.  I don't think Mac and Co had a different idea of what constitutes a Redan.  I think there were features of the Redan they didn't like, blindness to the rear of the green for instance, and so they eliminated it from the formula.  In this way they believed a better hole was created and for many this is true.  None the less, the holes they created were inspired by the Redan and thus they named their holes after it presumably so people could identify where the inspiration came from.  I don't believe Mac and Co believed they were recreating Redans and I don't believe that was ever the plan.  So the name is a homage to Redan.  Unfortunately, folks have taken that to mean that these holes are Redans when many are so far divorced from the original concept that they in no way could be called Redans.  Today, a load of people call a Redan a hole where the green L shapes one way or the other and has a steep drop in the fold.  For crying out loud, folks even call downhill shots like this a Redan.  Why?  Because Mac and Co called them Redans so they must be Redans.  IMO its a total miscommunication through history.

BTW  The lazy comment was a joke - heavy sigh.

Ciao

[Bryan Izatt]

David,

What do you think CBM thought the principle of the Redan was?  In the article, he says "the principle of the Redan can be used wherever a long narrow tableland can be found or made", and shortly after in describing NGLA, "The essential part, the tilted tableland".  Do you suppose that the tilted tableland for the green complex was the essential component of the principle he had in mind?    Do you think the bunkers, front and rear, and the ridge hiding the green, were not part of the principle?  How could he have looked at Merion, for instance, and seen that principle evoked, since it appears from all descriptions, that that hole does not have tilted table land in the sense of NB or even in reverse?

[Mark_Fine]

Anthony,
I love that quote and used it the other day in a master plan presentation.  The club is looking to make some improvements particularly on some of their weaker holes.  One of the reasons they are "weak" is that "they don't have a twist".  They are boring and lack interest.  They don't have some clever design feature or a unique aspect that makes them memorable and exciting to play.   I've always said myself that if you think of your favorite golf holes, they all have something speical about them (some twist as Macdonald would say).
Mark

[Craig Sweet]

This thread made me think....wait a minute...all the holes are the same....a  4.25" (?) hole in the ground...its the land leading to the hole that varies from...well...hole to hole. 

Why is the entire area from tee to green (and hole) called "the hole"?  Isn't there a better name??? Can't we come up with a better name...

Do I need more coffee...less coffee?

[Matt MacIver]

  C B Macdonald..."When you come to think of it, that is the secret of most of the great holes all over the world. They all have some kind of a twist."

  What courses are comprised of 18 holes each with a little twist. I have searched for a way to explain my love for Cruden Bay. It is because although not a championship course, it does have 18 holes each with some kind of twist. What other courses come to mind?

  Anthony

Back to the question at hand: it's the courses described here and elsewhere as quirky, odd, unusual or unfair.  So Prestwick and N. Berwick along with CB are Scotland's prime contenders, along with TOC. 

The first to jump to mind in the U.S. is the oft-cited Tobacco Road. 

[Anthony Gray]

  C B Macdonald..."When you come to think of it, that is the secret of most of the great holes all over the world. They all have some kind of a twist."

  What courses are comprised of 18 holes each with a little twist. I have searched for a way to explain my love for Cruden Bay. It is because although not a championship course, it does have 18 holes each with some kind of twist. What other courses come to mind?

  Anthony

Back to the question at hand: it's the courses described here and elsewhere as quirky, odd, unusual or unfair.  So Prestwick and N. Berwick along with CB are Scotland's prime contenders, along with TOC. 

The first to jump to mind in the U.S. is the oft-cited Tobacco Road. 

  Matt,

  You are right on target. You picked my three favorite scotish courses.

  Anthony

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

I think the "twist" is the angle of the shot to the green.

He (they) are trying to say all good golf holes have this trait.

[Mark_Fine]

Dick,
I never took it that way.  I believe he (Macdonald) is simply describing an atribute that gives that particular hole distinction. 

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

We are saying the same thing Mark, that is what gives a golf hole its' distinction. Just think about it.

[Garland Bayley]

I think Dirk and Mark are saying different things. I think Mark's idea of twist would include things like making the line of charm be different than the line of instinct such as at Riviera #10.

[Mark_Fine]

Garland,
Yes, that would be a good example.  Angles are important but in the case Garland raised about Riv's #10, it is not just about angles that makes that seemingly simple hole very complex.  That one has lots of twists 
Mark