[Dan Herrmann]

I was playing my course with Rory Connaughton on Sunday and we both had a good laugh about the brilliant way Hanse put a pair of completly blink bunkers smack dab into the middle of our 16th fairway.  These bunkers simply can't be seen from the fairway, and they reminded Rory of TOC.

I personally love them.  I know they're there (as did Rory), so I'll try to avoid them.  But they're built "backwards" from a normal bunker, and they can catch a poorly played shot.

Here's a picture (thanks to Joe Bausch)



Are we seeing blind bunkers on other new designs?  Are they fair?  Do you like them?

[Rob Rigg]

I have not seen them on any of the newer courses that I have played.

Used in moderation (ie - once or twice in 18), especially on the type of course that golfers will play repeatedly, I think they are another "fun" design element. Especially if they penalize a poorly played shot vs a well struck but slightly offline drive.

[Sean Leary]

6 at Bandon Trails. Over the hill is one smack in the middle that you can't see.

[Rory Connaughton]

I agree that moderation is key. It would not work on every course. The slope at FC 16 is perfect especially considering that the hole is a reachable par 5 with ample room.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Gil changed the 18th hole at Quaker Ridge last year. He added a bunker that is clearly visible, but reshaped the greenside bunker on the right, and now it is blind. It is the now only blind bunker on the golf course (you cant see it from the tee or landing area).

[Sean_A]

I was playing my course with Rory Connaughton on Sunday and we both had a good laugh about the brilliant way Hanse put a pair of completly blink bunkers smack dab into the middle of our 16th fairway.  These bunkers simply can't be seen from the fairway, and they reminded Rory of TOC.

I personally love them.  I know they're there (as did Rory), so I'll try to avoid them.  But they're built "backwards" from a normal bunker, and they can catch a poorly played shot.

Are we seeing blind bunkers on other new designs?  Are they fair?  Do you like them?

Dan

Lederach's 3rd hole has a big, blind centre-line bunker that must be carried if one hopes to reach the par 5 in two.  I have never seen a bunker quite like it as it seems like it should play from the opposite direction.  

I know I keep saying this, but Lederach is a great lesson in bunker placement.  It seems like there are tons of pits, but in truth the course is lightly bunkered.  Its just that all the bunkers matter and are used to guard landing zones and greens rather than frame shots.

Ciao

[Dan Herrmann]

Sean,
Thanks for the Lederach reminder.  That was a perfect example of the really wonderful work Kelly did out there.

I wonder how well they go over at a daily fee course where you get a large number of players unfamiliar with the course as compared to a private club?  (Just expanding on Bob Rigg's post with this question)

[Kyle Harris]

I agree that moderation is key. It would not work on every course. The slope at FC 16 is perfect especially considering that the hole is a reachable par 5 with ample room.

This is a KEY KEY KEY KEY point (reading that, Joe Logan?) about the blind bunkers at Lederach.

They exist, and they're only not fair if you are taking a VERY risky approach shot into Par 5s... i.e., going for them in two. Moderation is also the key in dealing with blind hazards... as in, play a bit conservative and attack when one is absolutely certain the confounding circumstances are mitigated.

[J Sadowsky]

The one drawback to playing Royal New Kent was hitting several "good shots" that landed in hidden bunkers.  While fair when you are playing a member's course or have a caddie, the concept translates poorly to the CCFAD experience.

[Kyle Harris]

Sean,

Our posts crossed... great minds...

[Dan Herrmann]

Kyle,
Yep - that's exactly why I really, really like Lederach

[Kyle Harris]

The one drawback to playing Royal New Kent was hitting several "good shots" that landed in hidden bunkers.  While fair when you are playing a member's course or have a caddie, the concept translates poorly to the CCFAD experience.

It only translates poorly with certain expecatations. Eliminate the expectations and it doesn't matter...

[J Sadowsky]

The one drawback to playing Royal New Kent was hitting several "good shots" that landed in hidden bunkers.  While fair when you are playing a member's course or have a caddie, the concept translates poorly to the CCFAD experience.

It only translates poorly with certain expecatations. Eliminate the expectations and it doesn't matter...

Two points

1) Overall, I still loved Royal New Kent.  And I guess to some degree it would have been difficult to take out all the hidden bunkers while keeping the feel of the place, which I loved.

2) I don't think it's possible to ask the average golfer to lose the expectation of being rewarded for a good shot.  I know such a concept is heresy around some parts of this place, but it's a battle you are going to lose to the masses.  If you are going to get the American golfer to appreciate good golf design and links-like golf, you are going to have to convince them that the game still has a measure of that ubiquitous term known as fairness.

[Kyle Harris]

Justin,

I think the problem is that the average American Golfer doesn't understand when he is actually rewarded or not. It becomes a question of understanding the game, as opposed to the situation. The golfer likely to complain about such things probably isn't of the success mindset anyway so it really doesn't matter, does it?

[J Sadowsky]

It does if golf is a business, Kyle.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm not saying I would NEVER build a blind fairway bunker, but I certainly wouldn't make a habit of it, anywhere but in the U.K.  Most other places, players are just not going to understand it ... and then there will be pressure to take it out ... and that opens the door to other changes.  And that's not a door I like to leave open.

[Rob Rigg]

Most Americans play "parkland" courses with "penal" designs where bunkers are evident for all to see at the side of the fairways.

Hence the reason that "blind" bunkering would not work at a CCFAD or public where a lot of people will probably only play it once.

I would imagine that most American golfers have issues with ANY bunkering in the fairways, nevermind blind bunkering.

Sean L - I forgot about 6 at Trails, I guess that is one of the benefits/shames about having a "Yardage Book" where you can see the layout of the hole. I remember thinking, whatever you do, don't hit it in that bunker over the rise, and I ended up rolling to about 2 feet away.

That was a fun walk from the tee to the rise to see what happened!!!

I love that kind of thing every now and then.

[Greg Chambers]

The only problem I see with those bunkers is that there is too much rough around them.  The fairway cut should go right to the top edge of the bunker face.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I'm not saying I would NEVER build a blind fairway bunker, but I certainly wouldn't make a habit of it, anywhere but in the U.K.  Most other places, players are just not going to understand it ... and then there will be pressure to take it out ... and that opens the door to other changes.  And that's not a door I like to leave open.

I like the idea that bunkers are not visible if they are on the sides of holes, not sure if one in the middle in range is a winner. I think golf courses should basically be learn't.

[Scott Coan]

I totally agree Adrian - hidden side bunkers are fine.  Quite often they catch wayward leaning shots and prevent them from entering even worse terrain.

But this notion of a hidden bunker smack dab in the middle of a fairway (quite often over a ridge) is bizarre thought to me.  Golfers will naturally attempt to hit their shots down the middle of fairways.  This becomes even more important when the shot is blind, because the player does not really know what lies ahead.  To hit what you think is a perfect shot and find it lying in a bunker is senseless.

The only reason I can think of is that the terrain is completely boring and you need "something" to spruce it up and make the player have to at least think of the stupid blind bunker in the middle of the fairway,...     

[Michael Blake]

It does if golf is a business, Kyle.

Very true Justin.

Lederach has made significant changes since its opening.  (6 years ago?)  Pressure from members/regulars who complained about certain architectural features that most on this site seemingly like but 'regulars' cannot stand led management to make them.

[Carl Rogers]

I'm not saying I would NEVER build a blind fairway bunker, but I certainly wouldn't make a habit of it, anywhere but in the U.K.  Most other places, players are just not going to understand it ... and then there will be pressure to take it out ... and that opens the door to other changes.  And that's not a door I like to leave open.

Riverfront has 1 blind fairway bunker.  It is on a short par 4, hole no. 7.  It is a large bunker but fairly shallow and less penal in relation to other Riverfront fairway bunkers.  The hole is a slight dogleg left and it guards the direct route to the green.  Only a super big hitter can carry it.  The first couple of times you play it, it is a little disconcerting, but you can adapt and the player learns which line off the tee to play away from it.  What is remarkable is the relatively flat hole and how the bunker is just so very barely over your sightline, even some one like myself who is 6'-5".

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Sean

I wouldn't classify the bunker on the 3rd at Lederach as blind. It is clearly visible from the adjacent 2nd tee. One would have to have a severe case of short term memory loss to forget that it's there some 50y short of the green.

[Carl Rogers]

The one drawback to playing Royal New Kent was hitting several "good shots" that landed in hidden bunkers.  While fair when you are playing a member's course or have a caddie, the concept translates poorly to the CCFAD experience.

I have played RNK twice and do not really remember them.  Can you refresh my memory?

[J Sadowsky]

The one drawback to playing Royal New Kent was hitting several "good shots" that landed in hidden bunkers.  While fair when you are playing a member's course or have a caddie, the concept translates poorly to the CCFAD experience.

I have played RNK twice and do not really remember them.  Can you refresh my memory?

I can't remember, it was years ago - one was on a par 5 where there was a narrow opening to aim at, I hit a perfect shot into what I thought would be the left side of the fairway after the hill - and nope, bunker.

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