[AndrewB]

Rich,

1.  If you were given complete control of the golf courses at Royal Dornoch, what changes would you make to them, if any?  Other than rectifying the cutting back of gorse/dumbing down you've already mentioned, of course.

2. What single feature on the Championship Course at Royal Dornoch do you think adds the most to the course / would hurt the course the most if it was removed?

3. What is your favorite green on the Championship Course at Royal Dornoch, and why?

4. Having experience with both, do you prefer the USGA handicap system or the CONGU handicap system?  What are your gripes with each?

[Rich Goodale]

Hi Andrew

1.  My first priority would be to sort out the Struie course by turning it into three 9's, with a small clubhouse/starters shed at roughly where the current 4th green is.  The three 9s would start and return there, and would include: a short, children's/casual golfers 9 between that clubhouse and the caravan park, with most holes along the lines of (and including) the current 3 "Academy" holes (~2500 yards); a medium length/higher challenge 9, consisting of some of the best of the OTM holes (i.e. 15-17) and some of the better Steel holes (~3200 yards); and a "Championship" 9, consisting of the new Hiseman holes going out towards the Kyle and a few new ones (~3500 yards).  If that were done, Dornoch would have a truly excellent 2nd course (2nd and 3rd nines); and a very good beginners course (1st and 2nd nines), as well as a relief clubhouse that would stop all the nonsense about building a new one.

As for the Championship Course, I think periodically about what one could do to "improve" it and the answer always comes back to "Nothing"--at least architecturally.  It is not perfect, but it is damn close, and that is one of it's enduring charms.  What I would do is fine tune the maintenance aspects better than they are now doing, in terms of: gorse management; fairway mowing lines; bunker sand (bring back the old stuff!); and more agressive action against meadow grasses, particularly in the rough.

2.  "Sutherlands'" hump, front left of the 12th green, is the feature that adds the most to the course, at leat for me.  It turns what could be a simple reachable (~500 yard) par-5 into a hole where you usually come away with a 5 and too often get a 6 or even higher.  Regardless of how well you drive the ball, the second must cut high over the hump or be drawn against the camber between it and the right hand bunker.  I'm lucky to hit that green in two 5% of the time, in or out of competition.  You are a much better player than I--what's your percentage?

3.  The 4th is my favorite of a course with so many great greens.  Because it is so difficult to hit (even though it is 15-20,000 swuare feet), it puts pressure on what is regardless a very demanding dive.  Because it is so contoured, even if you put you ball in position A off the tee, getting it to a Position B from which you can hope for a birdie and/or expect a par is problematical.  And, because of the diagonal spine that divides the green and creates as challenging and fun putts as one could expect if you find yourself on the wrong side of the spine.

4.  I have no gripes at all with CONGU.  It measures how you play under the Rules of Golf, and makes it almost impossible to carry a "vanity" handicap.  One can get a "sanbaggers" handicap, but it is a slow a painful process, where you inch upward only .1 at a time and only by playing in competitions, and may well be cut anyway in the end if the Committee thinks your handicap does not reflect your potential.  I have no time at all for the USGA/GHIN system.  It was developed with good intentions (i.e. to get more people to be "serious" golfers) but it fails almost every test, including:  encouraging players to play by the Rules; peer review of individual scores; encouraging players to become better golfers.

Cheers

Rich

[Ben Stephens]

Hi Rich,

Thanks for mentioning Carnoustie as your favourite and best course in Tayside. I was at uni at Dundee for 3 years in the late 1990's and was fortunate to play a lot of the courses in Tayside and Fife. I have tried to convince Mr Boon many times how good Carnoustie is could you elaborate it a bit further please so that it becomes more convincing! It always has been in a good nick since John Philp was the head greenkeeper. I get goosebumps when I play the 2nd cos Braid's bunker is awesome and all the great players that have played it had to negiotate a wee bunker in the centre of the fairway and also it plays mind games with you even now! There have been some names to describe the course - Big Shaggy Giant, Carnasty to name a few but my favourite comment is the Tayside Terror! Whats so good about it is that it separates the good and bad players very well.

Would be quite keen to see a sketch of your proposed Dornoch 3 nines - surely the club would make more money if they had a 2nd championship 18 combining the Steel and Hiseman holes with Robin H touching up and finalising it of course and the other 9 being an affordable pay as you play facility for all say 10 pounds for 9 holes etc.

As for the Eden course at St Andrews, they should have put the driving range elsewhere! and retained the original 1 and 18 by the old course hotel - the Steel holes are very disappointing knowing that Donald Steel has designed far much better holes. I would remove the pond and relocate it elsewhere. The Eden has the most fun holes at St Andrews its a shame that they have messed it up.

Look forward to meeting you at next years BUDA.

Cheers

Ben
 

[Bill_McBride]

2.  "Sutherlands'" hump, front left of the 12th green, is the feature that adds the most to the course, at leat for me.  It turns what could be a simple reachable (~500 yard) par-5 into a hole where you usually come away with a 5 and too often get a 6 or even higher.  Regardless of how well you drive the ball, the second must cut high over the hump or be drawn against the camber between it and the right hand bunker.  I'm lucky to hit that green in two 5% of the time, in or out of competition.  You are a much better player than I--what's your percentage?

Cheers

Rich

I agree Rich, it was a pleasure to meet that hump the 3 times I went around the course. Great choice.

I must have liked the depression just left of the fifth green, I found it all three rounds the one time I made it up to Dornoch!  Actually not a bad place to be, I two putted for par all three times.

[Sean_A]

Sean

Most of my iconoclastic opinions on the "greats" have been posted here before, and as I said above, they are all tentative and very much subject to change on repeat play, but here's today's (14 October 2009) list of possible anomalies if you've not read all my 10,000+ posts carefully.....

My 3*** others rate lower--Castle Stuart; Kingston Heath
My 2**   others rate lower--Applebrook; Littlestone; Winchester
My 2**  others rate higher--NGLA; Old Course; Pacific Dunes; Pinehurst #2; Portmarnock; Royal Melbourne (West)
My 1*    others rate higher--Cruden Bay; Nairn; North Berwick; Rye; Swinley Forest



Rich

Rich

Littlestone a 2*?  I am also quite surprised by Kingston Heath topping out Melbourne, but what I know of the others seems reasonable.  Lets get back to Littlestone.  Talk to me about it.  There is something quite appealing about the course and it does manage to create some drama and a fairly lifeless site, but I am finding it hard to believe its top 100ish in the world.

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

I found Littlestone to grow on me when there last month and Rye lacking in the "WOW" factor which is why I changed my overall thoughts of them.  I don't remember a hole on Littlestone that did not have something of interest to me, whereas Rye had too many holes which did not.  Beyond that, I'd be happy to discuss Littlestone over a pint or three, but not on this forum, as I suspect that neither of us has suficient experience of the course to do anything but speculate.

Rich

[Ally Mcintosh]

Rich Goodale is certainly one of the people on this message board who I would like to get to know... But I'd prefer to do it in person as opposed to wading through this rather impressive length thread...

So Rich will have to remain an enigma to me for a little longer...

[Stan Dodd]

Rich,
Much has been written about the 2nd at Dornoch.  Do you play it differently in competition?

[Sean_A]

Sean

I found Littlestone to grow on me when there last month and Rye lacking in the "WOW" factor which is why I changed my overall thoughts of them.  I don't remember a hole on Littlestone that did not have something of interest to me, whereas Rye had too many holes which did not.  Beyond that, I'd be happy to discuss Littlestone over a pint or three, but not on this forum, as I suspect that neither of us has suficient experience of the course to do anything but speculate.

Rich

Rich

While speculation is one of the reasons I get out of bed in the morning, I can but only agree with you.  Perhaps we can discuss Littlestone at Buda VIII.  I suspect by then you will have moved onto another sweetheart course and we will discuss that instead.  First round is on you.

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Stan

I'll play it short in Match play at the Shield if my opponent is in deep doodoo.

In stroke play rounds I'll rarely play short, as hope always springs eternal on any 2nd hole on any golf course.

Rich

[Bill_McBride]

Stan

I'll play it short in Match play at the Shield if my opponent is in deep doodoo.

In stroke play rounds I'll rarely play short, as hope always springs eternal on any 2nd hole on any golf course.

Rich

Would you define "deep doodoo" at #2 Dornoch as "missing the green anywhere but short?"   I sure would.

I actually thought #10 was harder, I guess because there was thick rough growing on the side banks so no putts were possible, just pitches off turf tighter than 1960's linoleum.

[Stan Dodd]

Bill,
I would agree that the recvery at 10 is more difficult because you really can not putt up the banks.

[Rich Goodale]

Bill

"Deep Doodoo" on the 2nd is officialy designated as anywhere in the gorse or left of the green, i.e. anywhere from which 5 will be a good score.  4's are very possible form the front bunkers or down to the right.  As for the 10th, except for going long with a back pin, getting a 4 from any miss is not impossible.

Rich

[AndrewB]

Rich, thanks for the thoughtful responses to my questions.  The three nines on the Struie is an interesting idea.

2.  "Sutherlands'" hump, front left of the 12th green, is the feature that adds the most to the course, at leat for me.  It turns what could be a simple reachable (~500 yard) par-5 into a hole where you usually come away with a 5 and too often get a 6 or even higher.  Regardless of how well you drive the ball, the second must cut high over the hump or be drawn against the camber between it and the right hand bunker.  I'm lucky to hit that green in two 5% of the time, in or out of competition.  You are a much better player than I--what's your percentage?

I would guess that my percentage is similar to yours, maybe 10% at most, and a large part of the reason is that hump.  The fact that the hump is at the front of the green, just past or where you want to land the ball, certainly increases the challenge of that shot.  I very rarely find myself close enough to the green that I feel I can fly the hump and still stop the ball, so most of the time when I do go for the green in two I'm trying to shape it in around the hump from the right (like most everyone else).  A ball coming in from that angle will need to be shaped properly and have enough steam to get up the left to right slope short of the green that feeds right into the greenside bunker.  So that approach really puts it to you: no hedging your bets by aiming right and letting it draw or not draw, with both results being fine; you need to hit the shot or you'll struggle to make four and, as you say, often walk away with a six.

Because of this, I layup to about 20-40 yards short of the green quite often and take my chances from there.  It's a much wider target and you take both bunkers out of play, resulting in a good look straight up the green.  For me that's the percentage play and I only go for the green when everything about it feels right.  I suspect it yields nearly as many birdies and a lot less bogeys.

[Bill_McBride]

Rich, thanks for the thoughtful responses to my questions.  The three nines on the Struie is an interesting idea.

2.  "Sutherlands'" hump, front left of the 12th green, is the feature that adds the most to the course, at leat for me.  It turns what could be a simple reachable (~500 yard) par-5 into a hole where you usually come away with a 5 and too often get a 6 or even higher.  Regardless of how well you drive the ball, the second must cut high over the hump or be drawn against the camber between it and the right hand bunker.  I'm lucky to hit that green in two 5% of the time, in or out of competition.  You are a much better player than I--what's your percentage?

I would guess that my percentage is similar to yours, maybe 10% at most, and a large part of the reason is that hump.  The fact that the hump is at the front of the green, just past or where you want to land the ball, certainly increases the challenge of that shot.  I very rarely find myself close enough to the green that I feel I can fly the hump and still stop the ball, so most of the time when I do go for the green in two I'm trying to shape it in around the hump from the right (like most everyone else).  A ball coming in from that angle will need to be shaped properly and have enough steam to get up the left to right slope short of the green that feeds right into the greenside bunker.  So that approach really puts it to you: no hedging your bets by aiming right and letting it draw or not draw, with both results being fine; you need to hit the shot or you'll struggle to make four and, as you say, often walk away with a six.

Because of this, I layup to about 20-40 yards short of the green quite often and take my chances from there.  It's a much wider target and you take both bunkers out of play, resulting in a good look straight up the green.  For me that's the percentage play and I only go for the green when everything about it feels right.  I suspect it yields nearly as many birdies and a lot less bogeys.

The best thing about that hump is that it's entirely natural, nobody manufacturered it.

[AndrewB]

Not according to Rich's architectural evolution of Royal Dornoch piece in the In My Opinion section: "12, which is called ‘Sutherland’ has as one notable feature the 10 ft high hump which pinches the entrance to this par-5, and was manufactured by the long serving Club Secretary of the same name."

[Norbert P]

The best thing about that hump is that it's entirely natural, nobody manufacturered it.

That quote is damn funny if you come into a thread and don't know what the Hell it's referring to.

 Perhaps a new thread is in the wings for "Favorite Hump" ?  


 Richard,  your mates at the Burghfield call you astute, why is that?    

How is Euan Currie doing?  He was the timeless puctuation mark on my trip to Scotland.  

Did you ever make it down to The "Other" Gleneagles in Brora?

What is your PIN #?

How is the Woodside Hotel holding up?

Aberdour GC looks like a fine home course, I wish I would have stopped in. What other courses, besides the well-known, do you haunt?

Will you be buying Painswick GC?

[Scott Warren]

Rich,

Buda `09 was my first one-on-one experience with you. One of the enduring images for me of those three days was watching you on the 1st tee of the afternoon foursomes teeing off in your button-through shirt from lunch with your sleeves turned up a few folds and your tie removed, nothing more. It was my regret that I didn`t score a round with you.

A question: if you were limited to listing three things Brits do better in golf than Americans, what would they be? Likewise things the `Mericans do better than the Brits?

I take you for a man who is well travelled. Which are your three favourite places in the world outside of Britain or the US, and why?

[Bill_McBride]

Not according to Rich's architectural evolution of Royal Dornoch piece in the In My Opinion section: "12, which is called ‘Sutherland’ has as one notable feature the 10 ft high hump which pinches the entrance to this par-5, and was manufactured by the long serving Club Secretary of the same name."

There you go, Andrew, letting the facts interfere with a good story!

[Bill_McBride]

The best thing about that hump is that it's entirely natural, nobody manufacturered it.

That quote is damn funny if you come into a thread and don't know what the Hell it's referring to.

 

Igor to Young Dr Frankenstein:  "What hump?"

[noise in the background of horses whinneying]

[Norbert P]

"Gene Wilder recently ...  described the creation of Frau Blücher. "When I was writing the first draft, I said, 'I wonder if anybody would get it when someone said "Frau Blücher" and the horses neigh.' Mel (Brooks) said, 'Keep it in.' Well, the audience loved it in the previews. Actually, I chose the name because I wanted an authentic German name. I took out some of the books I had of the letters to and from Sigmund Freud. I saw someone named Blücher had written to him, and I said well that's the name. Later on, I heard from about two or three sources, who said Blücher refers to a horse going to a factory and being turned to glue. I just thought it was a funny name."

So, now you know why those scared horses neigh. Sure, Frau Blücher is a scary old woman, but her name also brings thoughts of factories and glue."

[Bill_McBride]

"Gene Wilder recently ...  described the creation of Frau Blücher. "When I was writing the first draft, I said, 'I wonder if anybody would get it when someone said "Frau Blücher" and the horses neigh.' Mel (Brooks) said, 'Keep it in.' Well, the audience loved it in the previews. Actually, I chose the name because I wanted an authentic German name. I took out some of the books I had of the letters to and from Sigmund Freud. I saw someone named Blücher had written to him, and I said well that's the name. Later on, I heard from about two or three sources, who said Blücher refers to a horse going to a factory and being turned to glue. I just thought it was a funny name."

So, now you know why those scared horses neigh. Sure, Frau Blücher is a scary old woman, but her name also brings thoughts of factories and glue."

I look forward to our next encounter, young Slagster!

[Rich Goodale]

Slag

1.  I suspect they were calling me a "stoot," which is a Highland term of endearment for a dyslexic typist.

2.  I had a few large gins with Euan in August and lived to tell the tale.  He is as chipper as ever if not as mobile.  Did you know that the Burghfield has been resurrected as a teaching hotel?  Does the old phrase "those that can't do teach" apply to buildings?

3.  Never.  Some day...

4.  So you're the guy who took £143 out of my account from Mexico last week!

5.  The Woodside survives, in splendid medicority...

6.  Locally I haunt mostly those courses I can get on for free (interclub matches) or cheaply (open tournaments).  When I have to pay and/or have a guest who want's something different, I'll play Burnstisland or Pitreavie.

7.  I'll not buy the place, but I would put in some money to save the old girl if she's really threatened.

Scott

1.  Brits>Murcans:  apres-golf drinking; speed of play; maintenance meld

2.  Murcans>Brits:  wagering; on course drinking; 19th hole sports on TV

3.  Ireland (the people); France (the sensual pleasures of life); Italy (the impossibility of the place)

Rich

PS--Good to hear that I'm not the only one who thinks that the 12th at Dornoch is one of the best 500 yard 3-shotters in the world

PPS--Bill, you are on such a not roll.   "Frau Blucher" and THEN the whinnies!

rfg

[Norbert P]

Perhaps we'll go to another music concert. There's a solo violinist coming to town . . .


















(onomatopoetically)        "Neighhhhhh ! ! !"

[Bill_McBride]

PPS--Bill, you are on such a not roll.   "Frau Blucher" and THEN the whinnies!

Couldn't remember her name!  Should have known Slag would. 

And that hump certainly LOOKS natural. 

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()