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Bill_Overdorf

Annual rounds
« on: June 08, 2003, 03:28:13 PM »
::) I am highly curious about the number of rounds courses such as Bandon Dunes, Pacific, Sand Hills, etc. have logged since their openings. Truly a case of "If you build it they will come" considering the eminently remote locations of each of these. Even allowing for the ultra high level of quality and playing appeal I am prompted to think their annual market must be very impressive. Any numbers?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annual rounds
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2003, 04:11:02 PM »
Sand Hills is open June-October, so you can forget about them doing impressive numbers of rounds. if they book more than 12,000 rounds annualy I'd be stunned.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Huntley

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Re: Annual rounds
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2003, 04:43:25 PM »
Brad.

My guess is closer to 8-9000 rounds, tops.
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RJ_Daley

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Re: Annual rounds
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2003, 04:52:51 PM »
I wouldn't consider the Sand Hills number of rounds in this sort of discussion, due to private and very narrow number of people that will ever get the invite, and dues and f&b and lodging income are more important than guest fees for rounds played and are probably the key factors out there.  

However, Pac Dunes and Bandon are very interesting questions in my mind.  As a given that Bandon is reportedly a wonderful experience, albeit not holding the world class reputation that it had on the initial sizzle, and given that Pac will have and hold on to world class credentials, it remains to be seen over the years if the desire by the public can continue into the coming years and overcome the distance-remote factor.  Couple that with top tier green fees and lodge costs, and one wonders if the sizzle will continue to reach widespread appeal, or that a very small number of loyalists that would go every year repeatedly to experience the golf out there will sustain the costly operation.  The troubling part of this is the national numbers of growth of golf.  How small is the universe of passionate golf afficianados that will go to the end of the road to experience this quality of golf?  After the ones that already committed to make the journey have gone once or twice, will they decide they had enough of the good thing, or are there enough golf junkies in the pipeline to replace them?

It seems to me if they can do something like 40000 rounds a year at winter-summer and replay average green fees of @100 a round, = 4,000,000, that ought to be enough to keep the course solvant, if the F&B and lodge can run at its own profitable margin.  

All fun to think about, but really only Mr Keirser's ultimate concern...  I guess that is why they deem him to be a shrewd businessman. ;D 8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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JohnV

Re: Annual rounds
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2003, 06:09:08 AM »
According to an article that James Achenbach wrote in Golfweek (http://www.golfweek.com/articles/2000/opinion/columnists/3/18796.asp
)  Bandon Dunes had 35,000 rounds in 1999 when it didn't even open until May 1.  So, I'm sure they are doing a lot more than that now.  Pacific is probably doing a comparable number of rounds.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Annual rounds
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2003, 06:39:24 AM »

Quote
 Bandon Dunes had 35,000 rounds in 1999 when it didn't even open until May 1.

Also, they were only open Fridays-Sundays the first few months they were open, with limited numbers of tee times.  I played in early June of '99 and I only had a few choices on a Friday as a single calling several weeks ahead of time.
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W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annual rounds
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2003, 09:40:05 AM »
When Bandon opened,I was told they had based their business plan on 12,000 rounds a year. I presume low construction and land purchase costs allowed for this reasonable number.

Now that rooms are available and a second course has been built and greens fees raised, I can only imagine that the brilliant Mr. Keiser has struck gold.  

I would guess that greens fees have been raised as much to limit play as to improve their bottom line.  It would be an interesting conversation to have with the superintendents at Bandon.  How are the courses holding up?  Are we loving them to death?
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Michael Whitaker

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Re: Annual rounds
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2003, 10:34:58 AM »
Cos - I respectfully submit that green fees are ONLY raised to improve the bottom line... not "limit play." If a course wants to limit play all they need do is increase the spacing on the tee times.
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"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annual rounds
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2003, 12:43:22 PM »
Michael you're a cynic......I'm a naive optimist.   8)(rose colored glasses)

I would still like to know how the courses at Bandon are holding up in a heavy use situation and a difficult climate.
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ForkaB

Re: Annual rounds
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2003, 03:53:03 AM »
I think that the Bandon complex is great for golf and GCA, but all the hoopla at the start (3 years or so ago) that this was going to be some sort of "give something back to the game" eleemosynary enterprise was hopelessly naive.  Like any business they are charging what the market will bear, and probably going very happily to the bank at the end of each golfing day.  As for the effect of heavy play on the courses, I would guess, based on my experience at other courses in similar climes, that as long as they don't get too many droughts (and if they do, just do more periodic hollow-tining aeration to reduce compaction) the turf will be OK.  It's the bunkers I would worry about, but not much.  They'll evolve....
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Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annual rounds
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2003, 11:40:02 AM »
 I am also curious as to the ratio of play between the two courses at Bandon.
  Dick, do you know the number of annual rounds at Wildhorse and how much they are ascending?  To me, it is a more important barometer of the future health of golf.  

As most of you know, I love Bandon but $200.00 for a round is preeety steep.  I'll still go during the winter rates, in fact, it's the only thing about winter I look forward to; and perhaps travel to the antipodes of Tasmania.  That said, I still spend a small fortune on food and spirits.  Just remember, the yurts at Bullard's Beach Campground rule.

Anybody know how Red Mike is doing? (I think they might've changed the name.)

Apache Stronghold?  Devil's Thumb?  Rustic Canyon?

Bill Overdorf, Have you seen or heard anthing about Highlander Golf Club in East Wenatchee, Washington?


  
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"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Matt_Ward

Re: Annual rounds
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2003, 05:21:53 PM »
Bill:

The issue about amount of rounds is only part of the story.

The real issue for me is the incredible tortoise like rounds that take place at many of these places. When I played Pacific Dunes for the first time the pace of play was r-e-a-l-l-y slow as each person just had to make sure every putt was plumb bopped!

The same situation happened to me when I played Whistling Straits for the first time. An absolute crawl!

When "new" facilities build a legitimate buzz they should make pace of play no less important. I don't envy any place or have a desire to return to ANY course when rounds near six hours!
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Annual rounds
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2003, 05:48:39 PM »
Bill:  Last year's numbers for Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes were a little over 35,000 rounds each.  Before they opened, no one (including Mr. Keiser) really expected that they would be busy twelve months of the year, but they do far more play in winter than expected due to a great local following, reduced green fees, and the sandy soil which keeps them playable when other courses in the northwest are waterlogged.

I believe the number for Sand Hills is about 8000 - 9000 rounds per year because their season is so short, and because they have only a certain number of accommodations for the members.  The "rounds" number could be a bit low considering many visitors play 36 or 54 holes per day, or keep right on going until the coyotes come out.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Annual rounds
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2009, 10:23:14 PM »
Just curious - how have the number of rounds changed, if at all, since 2003?


Bill_McBride

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Re: Annual rounds
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2009, 11:07:27 PM »
Just curious - how have the number of rounds changed, if at all, since 2003?



You have to wonder if total demand for all 3 courses is at the same average as when there were only two. 

And now add Old Macdonald..........it will be interesting.

On the 36 Hole thread somebody mentioned playing Pacific Dunes and Bandon Trails on the same day.  Has the resort changed the original rule where you had to play both courses one day and could play a second course the second day?

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Annual rounds
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2009, 01:08:49 AM »
Bill,
There are different rate structures for a replay vs a second course the same day. Don't know the exact difference.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annual rounds
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2009, 09:01:06 AM »
Two years ago the replay rate (50%) was available to resort guests for any 36-hole combination of courses, while for non-resort guests it was only available if you played the same course twice that day.  Since I was only there for two days and wanted to play all of the courses, that rule certainly pushed me to stay at the resort (which I probably would've done anyway, but it certainly provided an additional reason).