[Garland Bayley]

If I remember correctly, an average course is a Doak 3. For $30, I expect a Doak 3. For $50, I expect a Doak 5, maybe in this economy a Doak 6. After all, Doak says any effort he makes should easily make a 6, which to me says Common Ground should be a Doak 6. I suspect I can get on Common Ground for $50.

[Kirk Gill]

To go along with what Peter was saying earlier, one thing that has really depressed me about many golf courses is the way I feel like my wallet is being processed by a bunch of business school graduates. I don't mind paying the $50 if that money is out there on the golf course, and not in a fancy clubhouse I don't really use, etc. The difference for me between a $30 and $50 course (other than the obvious, $20) is that I might expect a little more sand, a little more pizzaz.

Question - architectural merit might obviously be worth more, but for a course operator.......does it typically COST more? Given a similar level of conditioning, does a Doak 3 typically cost less to maintain than a doak 6?

[Sean_A]

Guys I'm talking about the majority of the golf courses that make up golf in the USA.....not resort courses where we go for a few days a couple for times per year and will spend the $100 or more for the fee.....
I'm talking about a course some guy built in a community with say 25,000 people in a 15 mile radius(small town America)  say he can bring in $900,000 per year ( that may be high for a lot of courses across the country)  has maybe $200,000 in mortgage, 400,000 in maintenance and 75,000 in taxes and insurance and then proshop overhead before any profit.....and with a bad year here and there.....it doesn't work...
we are getting ready to see these guys get into $300,000 maintenance budgets....
Let's put it another way....I assume most on here would play 100 rounds per year.....that's $5000 for green fees if you average $50.....AVERAGE $50.......
Sean, I'm not thinking most golfers care about architectural merit.....they want a good putting that will allow a rock flite to stop....and that owner with the note is wanting that player to come in his door.....yes, there is a market for some at $75 and above but that is going to be a battle...
I see the little pushup green, triplexed 12 bunker, 6300 yard , fairways mowed with gang mower, smooth tees and solid smooth greens making a hell of a lot of the money in this business soon...and that owner is not worried about what the USGA, GCSAA, NGCOA or ASGCA tells him he needs to do.....OH there might be some $100 bills that never see the register with some of these old timers..

Mike

I spend a lot of time on courses that I think would probably be in the $30-$50 range if they were publics in the States.  Much more often than not, I can find all sorts of interesting architecture and really enjoy myself.  I have have a lot of time for simple and sound architecture if its offered at a fair price.  For instance, I would call places like Mid-Pines and S Pines just that, simple and sound, but of a high calibre for this sort of thing.  Indeed, the architecture of one heck of a lot of Ross could be called simple and sound.  But the pricing structure is way out of whack for what is on offer.  That is why despite really liking the courses I don't have much desire to pay their green fee.  I can get that type of architecture and conditioning at loads of places for less money.  If thats more or less the sort of thing you are talking about for $30-$50 I don't see what the problem is - I think that is deliverable in that price range.


Ciao

[Melvyn Morrow]

As in life we all enjoy different aspects of the game of golf. Some love the total testosterone surge of the course, others look for an calm but challenging round, some just like the fresh air and exercise while messing about on the course. Whatever your choice, there are courses out there to meet your expectations, however I submit a list of some courses that I have enjoyed and come close to the figures mentioned in the heading of this topic.

Please note I am not calling them great courses but ones I have enjoyed, but as with most thinks it depend upon your style and more importantly your mood on the day. I have played some great courses in my time but come away wondering why I bothered with some and just what do others see that I did not, however when I returned months or a year later I quickly reversed my original opinion of the course.

The following courses are just a very short list of courses that I have enjoyed and are easy to find. Many have a connection with Old Tom but not all. I have included King James VI course at Perth being on an island on the River Tay, which may be a first for some. The point really to my selection is that they are the grassroots of the clubs scene that serve the local community well and are worth a visit as you pass between Royal Dornoch and St Andrews. As I have said there are many more I would also include but time and space is against me. 

Bridge of Allan  (http://www.bofagc.co.uk/ )
Membership Fee   Weekday Fee   Weekend Fee   
£ 265.00           £15.00             £20.00

Callander Golf Club (http://www.callandergolfclub.co.uk/ )
Membership Fee   Weekday Fee   Weekend Fee   
£ 405.00           £25.00             £35.00

Cullen Golf Club  (http://www.cullengolfclub.co.uk/)
Membership Fee   Weekday Fee   Weekend Fee   
£ 305.00           £22.00             £30.00

Forfar Golf Club  (http://www.forfargolfclub.com/)
Membership Fee   Weekday Fee   Weekend Fee   
£ 405.00           £42.00             £47.00

Huntly Golf Club  (http://www.huntlygc.com/index.php)
Membership Fee   Weekday Fee   Weekend Fee   
£ 330.00           £18.00             £25.00

King James Vi GC  (http://www.kingjamesvi.co.uk/)
Membership Fee   Weekday Fee   Weekend Fee   
£ 395.00           £24.00             £26.00 (after 2pm)

Kinghorn Golf Club  (http://www.kinghorngolfclub.co.uk/)
Membership Fee   Weekday Fee   Weekend Fee   
£ 190.00           £15.00             £20.00

Killin Golf Club   (http://www.killingolfclub.co.uk/)
Membership Fee   Weekday Fee   Weekend Fee   
£ 230.00           £20.00             £24.00

Strathpeffer Spa GC (http://www.strathpeffergolf.co.uk/)
Membership Fee   Weekday Fee   Weekend Fee   
£             £24.00             £34.00

Tarland Golf Club  (http://www.tarlandgolfclub.co.uk/)
Membership Fee   Weekday Fee   Weekend Fee   
£             £18.00             £24.00

Just some of the smaller clubs of Scotland that you may wish to look at on your next trip to the Highlands

Melvyn

[Mike_Young]

Sean and Melvyn,
Good to see the comments and your list re courses in GB....it really is different here for so many small mom and pop courses because of the different climates and conditions.....I think you have a much better chance of success with a club under $30 than we do here just because of maintenance practices and climate.....also the green fee is really not a good way to define the cost of golf in an area....it seems to me that when one looks at the overall annual expense of a small golf course in an area he can then back into it how much money needs to be made and determine a green fee.....if people looked at it that way we would have more people (in USA) amazed that golf could be offered for $30.

[Brent Hutto]

For anything under $30/round (walking) I'm happy if there's healthy grass on the greens that's cut every day or two and good enough drainage to keep the fairways dry in normal weather. Some sort of sand in the bunkers, even if it's packed down and never raked. Drinking water available somewhere and at least a couple of cool or interesting holes are a big plus that make me want to return. Not too many cuppy lies in the fairway are also an expectation although I don't expect perfection at $25/round.

Once you hit $50/round (walking) the greens need to be nice to putt on and cut every day (in season) and at least a majority of the holes ought to show some thought or interest in their design (i.e. not all straight 360-yard Par 4's to round greens with a bunker short left. Fairway bunkering ought to at least be sufficient to make you take it into account on a handful of tee shots. Par 5's should be varied in length and not all 490 yards and Par 3's should have as much variety as possible. Tee boxes should have a smooth, solid place to stand and not be totally whacked-up, dead and unlevel. Bunkers should have some attempt at a consistent presentation. At least a couple of really stand-out holes design-wise that stick in your mind after playing there.

[Adam Clayman]

The saddest reality I see here in Cornhusker land is that without the bar business most places couldn't make a go of it. At my local, when the GC was just dirt and weeds the bar business was 300k annually. Now that Corey has made the conditions better, and the greens perfect, even with his low OE, he would be struggling without the bar. He charges $40 off the street but is always willing to give a small discount for first time players in an attempt to earn repeat business. The annual pass in in the $500 range with a cart pass going for almost $300.

[Jason Topp]

In the Minneapolis/St. Paul, the difference between a $30, a $50 and a more expensive course has less to do with quality of the course and much more to do with whether there is a bag stand guy, a starter that gives you a 15 minute explanation of the golf course and whether there is a yardage guide.  For $50 or more, most expect bent fairways.  Bluegrass is ok for $30.

Certain courses seem to be able to charge a premium for reasons that do not make sense to me.

If I were running a course with a goal of low expenses, I would make the greens as nice as possible, sacrifice the number of bunkers in favor of quality of maintenence on those bunkers and go lower budget on everything else.

Baker National is a county course that has bluegrass fairways and is highly thought of when the greens are kept smooth and relatively fast.  Many peole do not play there regularly because they do not know what they will get for greens.

[Sean_A]

Sean and Melvyn,
Good to see the comments and your list re courses in GB....it really is different here for so many small mom and pop courses because of the different climates and conditions.....I think you have a much better chance of success with a club under $30 than we do here just because of maintenance practices and climate.....also the green fee is really not a good way to define the cost of golf in an area....it seems to me that when one looks at the overall annual expense of a small golf course in an area he can then back into it how much money needs to be made and determine a green fee.....if people looked at it that way we would have more people (in USA) amazed that golf could be offered for $30.

Mike

Perhaps you are right in more ways than one.  Remember, its hard to come by quality golf in GB&I for $50 let alone $30.  The best three I now of are Cavendish ($50), Burnham's Channel 9 ($30) and Kington ($36).  To be honest its amazing this quality is available for that price.  There are others that have some good stuff and understandably have less than good holes.  Off the top of my head Gullane #3 is one of best of these types.  

Thinking of Michigan, many of the courses in the $30-50 range that I think are good are govt supported or part of housing estates (not stand alones), but there are many notable exceptions, below are two of my favourites.  Both very much like ma & pa operations, but with some fine architecture to bring me back.  

http://www.braeburngc.com/

http://webchief777.googlepages.com/home2

I loved my time at http://marylandgolf.com/annapolis.html and would dearly like to see the course again.  Its cheap and cheerful, but with some excellent architecture.  


Predictably, many would complain about conditions at these courses, but they have always been fine by me.

Ciao




  

[Jerry Kluger]

Mike: I cannot really differentiate between a $50 and a $30 course.  In the Washington, DC area the courses are generally overpriced and you really never get a sense of value.  The question should be narrowed to what do you expect for your money on a weekend during the season - the courses have come to recognize that there are many off-times during the week and are lowering their rates in order to get whatever revenue they can.  To me, I think the best example of the $50 course is CommonGround in Colorado.  You get reasonably good playing conditions combined with an interesting course.  The property is not very interesting but good green complexes combined with good strategy make for a fun course.  The greens have enough contours so that green speeds can be kept down and the rough doesn't have to be that lush since angles are very important.  Wild Horse is a great $50 course but the location makes that an unfair comparison.

[D_Malley]

our course falls right into this category
$30-$60 w/ cart
$32 weekday walking
5700 yrds from back tees

municipal owned, and makes a profit for township every year
I can provide some budget info if desired

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwQ_cJUpL6Y

[tlavin]

I expect something under 6200 yards, with bunkers that are easy to maintain and easy to get out of, something that is eminently walkable, something that has a good halfway house, with great hot dogs and cold draft beer.

[Bill_McBride]

I expect something under 6200 yards, with bunkers that are easy to maintain and easy to get out of, something that is eminently walkable, something that has a good halfway house, with great hot dogs and cold draft beer.

Terry, why should the bunkers be easy to get out of ?  Don't retail golfers want to be challenged at all?

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