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Peter Ferlicca

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Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« on: October 12, 2009, 04:41:13 PM »
Southern Dunes is a very nice course that was originally built to be an all mens private club.  It lasted like that for about 7 years and then they just couldn't afford it anymore, so Troon came in and manages it now.  The conditions were great, the fairways were tight and fast, and the greens were fast and firm.  I don't know if the Plantation Club in Indio was built before this but it sure does seem like they were both started with the same mindset.  Out of the four courses I played I would rate them Chaparral Pines, Southern Dunes, Troon North, and then Legend Trail.

Hole 1 Par 4




Hole 2 Par 4




Hole 3 Par 5




Hole 4 Par 3




Hole 5 Par 4



Hole 6 Par 3


Hole 7 Par 5




Hole 8 Par 4



Hole 9 Par 4



Hole 10 Par 4



Hole 11 Par 3


Hole 12 Par 4



Hole 13 Par 5



Hole 14 Par 4



Hole 15 Par 4





Hole 16 Par 5




Hole 17 Par 3



Hole 18 Par 4





Bill_McBride

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Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2009, 04:47:37 PM »
I played there a couple of years ago before Troon got involved.  It was in good condition, and I thought the fairway bunkering was very good (see #14 for great cross bunkers).  I did think #1 was a good starter but there was a later par 4 that was pretty much the same hole again.  All in all a really good course and the scene of one of my few straight up wins over my brother, made even sweeter because my nephew, his son, caddied for both of us!

Rob Rigg

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Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2009, 05:05:32 PM »
Pete,

Looks like a fun round and a little bit different look that some of the other AZ courses I have seen - ie) the fescue vs desert vegetation? - I could be wrong but the coloring is kind of neat.

It looks like they had clay paths from tee to fairway to make walking easier?

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2009, 09:30:03 PM »
I really like how this looks! I know there's a lot of framing stuff behind the greens, but I'd guess there isn't a lot to look at behind the mounds anyway, so why not.

Chris DeNigris

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Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2010, 11:40:23 AM »
I'm surprised this course doesn't get more love  ???

After 5 Phoenix trips (6th upcoming in May) and about 50 rounds at most of the non-private A list courses, this one is easily in the top 5 for me. I've played SD and Saguaro twice each and playing both twice again this year, but if I had to choose between the 2 I'd head to Maricopa.

Blessed with far less attractive desert to work with these guys created a terrific and strategic course.

For those that lament the hard, contrasting edges and seams of the grass and desert at most Phoenix courses, this place is for you!

The bunkering is super and the greens are fun and challenging.

Put this 25 miles north and you'd have a hard time getting on.

If you're planning a Phoenix trip SD should be on your short list.

Jason Topp

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Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2010, 11:59:22 AM »
I like it better than We-Ko-Pa Saguaro and it is probably half the cost.

Does anyone know whether they overseeded this year?  I played in January last year and the they had not overseeded (at least the greens) which I liked.

Andy Troeger

Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2010, 12:11:17 PM »
I like it better than We-Ko-Pa Saguaro and it is probably half the cost.

Does anyone know whether they overseeded this year?  I played in January last year and the they had not overseeded (at least the greens) which I liked.

Only the tees. Supposed to play it Saturday the 16th for the first time.

Chris DeNigris

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Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2010, 12:21:18 PM »
Andy- looking forward to your thoughts.

What else are you playing?

Jason- You and I might be in a small (but very discriminating  ;D ) group that woud have this preference.

Andy Troeger

Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2010, 12:37:12 PM »
Stone Canyon, Ventana Canyon (Canyon Cse), Desert Mountain Renegade and Geronimo, Whisper Rock Lower, and perhaps one more.

Chris DeNigris

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Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2010, 12:53:08 PM »
Andy- Nice lineup. Try and squeeze in VV...would be curious to hear how some of the somewhat lesser known/appreciated "A" courses are holding up in this climate. Can't recall if you're a VV fan...

Sean_A

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Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2010, 01:18:50 PM »
The mounding behind greens with the strict lines dividing the course from native scrub is very off-putting.  Its the same story, a failure to create soft lines between desert and course.  That said, the course looks okay - if cheap enough I would give it a go.

Thanks for pix P

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Bill_McBride

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Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2010, 01:29:27 PM »
The mounding behind greens with the strict lines dividing the course from native scrub is very off-putting.  Its the same story, a failure to create soft lines between desert and course.  That said, the course looks okay - if cheap enough I would give it a go.

Thanks for pix P

Ciao

I'm playing there Sunday 1/31 (highest season) for $107.50 including tax.  It's a very solid course, I played there a couple of years ago.  The framing mounding didn't bother me as much while playing as it does in these photos.  The greens were excellent, about 9 which was very playable.

Andy Troeger

Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2010, 01:50:54 PM »
Andy- Nice lineup. Try and squeeze in VV...would be curious to hear how some of the somewhat lesser known/appreciated "A" courses are holding up in this climate. Can't recall if you're a VV fan...

I do like Vista Verde, but its probably too far from the airport for that last round. I have something tentative but its not 100%. Should be fun--looking forward to warmth!

Ryan Farrow

Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2010, 01:56:19 PM »
The mounding behind greens with the strict lines dividing the course from native scrub is very off-putting.  Its the same story, a failure to create soft lines between desert and course.  That said, the course looks okay - if cheap enough I would give it a go.

Thanks for pix P

Ciao

Sean,

That hard line is not an easy thing to get rid of. The problem with the native grasses is that there is over spray from the fairway or rough irrigation. and the "native" close to the rough gets really heavy and really think, thus you get that sharp line when the rough is mowed. Were not in the Isles anymore!!!! None of this is natural!

With that said, its not something I noticed when I was out there a few weeks ago playing. Plus it is all brown now, as someone mentioned earlier, only the tees were over seeded.  

I'll be out there Sunday, perhaps I will take a few shots, to give you freaks some of that brown eye-candy that you all love so much.



And Bill, why are you paying  $107. Golf Now's highest rate is 70 on the weekend.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2010, 02:04:10 PM »
Is it just the camera angles, or are the fronts of most of the greens guarded by bunkers? Looks like a Nicklaus aerial course to me -- bring your high, soft fade.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Ryan Farrow

Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2010, 02:08:27 PM »
Is it just the camera angles, or are the fronts of most of the greens guarded by bunkers? Looks like a Nicklaus aerial course to me -- bring your high, soft fade.

Thanks for your concern but the course allows a multitude of run-up shots + It is actually maintained for those shots!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2010, 03:20:40 PM »
The mounding behind greens with the strict lines dividing the course from native scrub is very off-putting.  Its the same story, a failure to create soft lines between desert and course.  That said, the course looks okay - if cheap enough I would give it a go.

Thanks for pix P

Ciao

Sean,

That hard line is not an easy thing to get rid of. The problem with the native grasses is that there is over spray from the fairway or rough irrigation. and the "native" close to the rough gets really heavy and really think, thus you get that sharp line when the rough is mowed. Were not in the Isles anymore!!!! None of this is natural!

With that said, its not something I noticed when I was out there a few weeks ago playing. Plus it is all brown now, as someone mentioned earlier, only the tees were over seeded.  

I'll be out there Sunday, perhaps I will take a few shots, to give you freaks some of that brown eye-candy that you all love so much.



And Bill, why are you paying  $107. Golf Now's highest rate is 70 on the weekend.

It jumps rapidly as you head toward the end of January.  We also have to play at 9 a.m. Sunday to catch a 4:55 flight out of PHX later that day,

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2010, 07:01:00 PM »
The mounding behind greens with the strict lines dividing the course from native scrub is very off-putting.  Its the same story, a failure to create soft lines between desert and course.  That said, the course looks okay - if cheap enough I would give it a go.

Thanks for pix P

Ciao

Sean,

That hard line is not an easy thing to get rid of. The problem with the native grasses is that there is over spray from the fairway or rough irrigation. and the "native" close to the rough gets really heavy and really think, thus you get that sharp line when the rough is mowed. Were not in the Isles anymore!!!! None of this is natural!

With that said, its not something I noticed when I was out there a few weeks ago playing. Plus it is all brown now, as someone mentioned earlier, only the tees were over seeded.  

I'll be out there Sunday, perhaps I will take a few shots, to give you freaks some of that brown eye-candy that you all love so much.



And Bill, why are you paying  $107. Golf Now's highest rate is 70 on the weekend.

Ryan

My comments aren't really critical of the archie.  I suspect in that sort of environment that hard seam lines are difficult to avoid.  IMO its a problem with desert golf though I have seen it pulled off very well once or twice. 

In a different but similar sort of way I have the same problem with parkland courses and trees being the constant visual boundary, but again, some placed pull it off much better than others and it usually means having far less trees or a site where the vistas are tree-filled. 

I don't know why I ever became so obsessed with the boundaries and seams on courses.  Perhaps it is because I think so little attention is paid to this element of design that it sticks out like a whore in Buckingham Palace.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom Yost

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Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2010, 08:13:09 PM »
...  I suspect in that sort of environment that hard seam lines are difficult to avoid.  IMO its a problem with desert golf though I have seen it pulled off very well once or twice. 

In a different but similar sort of way I have the same problem with parkland courses and trees being the constant visual boundary, but again, some placed pull it off much better than others and it usually means having far less trees or a site where the vistas are tree-filled. 

I don't know why I ever became so obsessed with the boundaries and seams on courses.  Perhaps it is because I think so little attention is paid to this element of design that it sticks out like a whore in Buckingham Palace.

Ciao

Sean,

I've noted your stated dislike for the hard edge grass to desert transitions but I've yet to see how it can be done otherwise.  The problem is that for the most part, there is really no native grass in the desert, it is just rock.  You can let the bermuda runners spread out away from the turf boundry but essentially you will still have the hard transition from grass to rock. And the result is unmowable and for me, even more unsightly.

I'm interested to know where you have seen it pulled off to your liking and if anyone has pictures of these transitions.

Fact is, green grass in the desert is "unnatural" and I've not seen any examples of a seamless transition between the turf and the native areas, at least here in the Sonoran desert of Arizona.


Jeff Shelman

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Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2010, 08:17:48 PM »
Is this walkable? Just curious.

Ryan Farrow

Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2010, 08:24:11 PM »
The mounding behind greens with the strict lines dividing the course from native scrub is very off-putting.  Its the same story, a failure to create soft lines between desert and course.  That said, the course looks okay - if cheap enough I would give it a go.

Thanks for pix P

Ciao

Sean,

That hard line is not an easy thing to get rid of. The problem with the native grasses is that there is over spray from the fairway or rough irrigation. and the "native" close to the rough gets really heavy and really think, thus you get that sharp line when the rough is mowed. Were not in the Isles anymore!!!! None of this is natural!

With that said, its not something I noticed when I was out there a few weeks ago playing. Plus it is all brown now, as someone mentioned earlier, only the tees were over seeded.  

I'll be out there Sunday, perhaps I will take a few shots, to give you freaks some of that brown eye-candy that you all love so much.



And Bill, why are you paying  $107. Golf Now's highest rate is 70 on the weekend.

Ryan

My comments aren't really critical of the archie.  I suspect in that sort of environment that hard seam lines are difficult to avoid.  IMO its a problem with desert golf though I have seen it pulled off very well once or twice. 

In a different but similar sort of way I have the same problem with parkland courses and trees being the constant visual boundary, but again, some placed pull it off much better than others and it usually means having far less trees or a site where the vistas are tree-filled. 

I don't know why I ever became so obsessed with the boundaries and seams on courses.  Perhaps it is because I think so little attention is paid to this element of design that it sticks out like a whore in Buckingham Palace.

Ciao


You might not have a problem with the Archie but I DO!!!!!!

Sean, I don't think its lack of attention, I think it is a mix of difficulty, style, and peoples need for something perfectly manicured.

Sometimes an architect might want the crisp clean maintained lines. Sometimes they may want a nice un-noticeable transition to native. This is sometimes hard to get, depending on the site. And sometimes you just get a great site with sand and good turf grasses and this transition just happens and the archie runs with it. I don't think its something people ignore, they might just feel differently about it than you do. I'm sure the majority of golfers aren't with you! And they want to see these outer edges string trimmed like they are at Vista Verde and some other desert courses.

At southern dunes I would say its a maintenance thing. Its a mower thing, and its an irrigation thing. And they don't have the maint. budget to worry that much about it or address the issue right now. I believe it is something we talked to the club about, but they have a lot on their plate now. Especially since the transition to a public facility.

If anything its a nice case study in design. The contrast with another flat site, Talking Stick North, where little dirt was moved Vs. a large dirt move and A LOT of shaping. It would be interesting to see how the public would choose if these courses were right next to each other.

Ryan Farrow

Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2010, 08:28:59 PM »
Is this walkable? Just curious.

Yes, very.

Tom,

I have a feeling Sean will mention Apache..... But I wouldn't say it was done on purpose. Especially now that the bunkers are being overtaken with bermuda. Apache isn't a great case study of grass transitions, its a case of a golf course falling apart. Sadly.

Tom Yost

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Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2010, 08:58:06 PM »
Apache Stronghold is in a different climate zone.

I looked again at the photos presented and in fact didn't see any of the hard transitions so disliked.  Something they did at Southern Dunes is the planting of "native" grasses along the transitions.  What happens is that the grasses adjacent to the turf catches the irrigation and grows thick and impenetrable.  Eight feet off the fairway and it turns wispy.  This creates the effect where it is better to be way off than a little off.   You can find a similar concept out at Trilogy/Vistancia.  Looks nice but doesn't work very well.

And yes, Southern Dunes is a GREAT walking course.




Bill_McBride

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Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2010, 11:55:02 PM »
...  I suspect in that sort of environment that hard seam lines are difficult to avoid.  IMO its a problem with desert golf though I have seen it pulled off very well once or twice. 

In a different but similar sort of way I have the same problem with parkland courses and trees being the constant visual boundary, but again, some placed pull it off much better than others and it usually means having far less trees or a site where the vistas are tree-filled. 

I don't know why I ever became so obsessed with the boundaries and seams on courses.  Perhaps it is because I think so little attention is paid to this element of design that it sticks out like a whore in Buckingham Palace.

Ciao

Sean,

I've noted your stated dislike for the hard edge grass to desert transitions but I've yet to see how it can be done otherwise.  The problem is that for the most part, there is really no native grass in the desert, it is just rock.  You can let the bermuda runners spread out away from the turf boundry but essentially you will still have the hard transition from grass to rock. And the result is unmowable and for me, even more unsightly.

I'm interested to know where you have seen it pulled off to your liking and if anyone has pictures of these transitions.

Fact is, green grass in the desert is "unnatural" and I've not seen any examples of a seamless transition between the turf and the native areas, at least here in the Sonoran desert of Arizona.



Tom, agreed there are few "examples of a seamless transition between the turf and the native areas," but I do think it's probably best at Talking Stick North.  Some of that is because the outside edges of most of the fairway bunkers seem to bleed right into the desert.  I found it to be a very natural and attractive look.

Forrest Richardson

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Re: Southern Dunes GC Maricopa, AZ (Pics)
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2010, 12:33:05 AM »
Since Pete ranked Legend Trail 4th of the four venues he played while here, I'll allow Rees to take the bulk of the credit this go-around.   ;)
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

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