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[David Egan]

1   Merion                       4      362
2   Beverly                       5       560
3   Sea Island (Seaside)       3       215
4   Lahinch                       5       475
5   Bethpage (Black)        4      451
6   Ridgewood (Center)       4       289
7   San Fransisco               3       189
8   Lost Dunes                 5       603
9   Whistling Straits (Straits)  4       415
                                  37       3559

10   Shoreacres                       4       430
11   Ballybunion (Old)               4       446
12   Skokie                        3       225
13   North Berwick               4       365
14   Olympia Fields (North)       4       444
15   Pine Valley                       5       590
16   Cypress Point               3       225
17   Carnoustie                       4       433
18   Olympic (Lake)               4       320
                                 35      3478
                                 72      7037

[Jud Tigerman]

gene,

i agree.  this was much more difficult than I thought, particularly given the par 72 proviso.  essentially there are some holes that simply must be included and the rest are finding the best holes to fill out the 18.  there are infinite permutations....

[Jaeger Kovich]

1 - Fenway Drivable 290 yrd Par 4
2 - Bandon Trails 214 yrd Par 3
3 - Knoll West "Redan" 180 yrd Par 3
4 - Winged Foot East 578 yrd Par 5
5 - Bethpage Black 450 yrd Par 4
6 - Kingsbarns 318 yrd par 4
7 - Friars Head 530 par 5
8 - Old Macdonald "Birritz" 180 yrd Par - 3
9 - Whitensville "Cape" 416 yrd Par 4

10 - Winged Foot West 190 yrd Par 3
11 - Quaker Ridge short 375 yrd Par 4
12 - The Old Course "Heathery" 315 yrd Par 4
13 - Queenwood 515 yrd par 5
14 - Carnoustie "Spectacles" 475 yrd Par 5
15 - Bayonne 293 yrd par 4
16 - Bandon Dunes 363 yrd par 4
17 - Yale 430 yrd Par 4
18 - Bethpage Red 460 Par 4

Out - par 35 3156 yrd
In -   par 37 3416 yrd

Total par 72 - 6572 yards

Wow - that was a lot harder then I thought it would be... I payed Zero attention to par, so my results are a little shocking at par 72... not that it matters.

[Matt_Ward]

Jaeger:

Help me out -- I live in NJ and have played the 3rd at The Knoll plenty of times -- but for it to be included among an all-star listing of holes from throughout the world ?

I like the hole too but would not have it among my all-18 -- in fact, it would not even make honorable mention. Not because it isn't a fine hole but because the level of competition is that much higher for it to fit into that mix.

Gents:

It's fine to list private clubs into the mix but many people here on GCA and those that lurk likely don't have the access to get on those layouts. Good to see people listing some public available holes -- be more interested if people can post an all-18 public course. Even better if the holes selected come from places that are under $150 to play.

[Jim Sullivan]

Matt,

With all due respect, start a thread with those as the criteria if that's what you want to discuss.

What advantage is it to me if Rustic Canyon has a great hole but I would have to fly across the country to see it, but I can sign up for a Golf Association of Philadelphia event and play Merion?

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Because you have access to Merion -- the bulk of people do not.

Happy to start another thread. But far too many "insiders" here only talk about the elite places that few people will likely ever play.

Your concern has been noted -- I trust mine has been as well. With all due respect too.

[Tom Birkert]

This was very difficult. I wanted to include holes which encouraged risk / reward, had reachable par 5s and iconic par 3s. I hope to be able to make a better 18 in a few years!!

1st – Oakmont, Par 4
2nd – Merion, Par 5
3rd – NGLA, Par 4
4th – Royal St George's Par 4
5th – Pine Valley Par 3
6th – Sunningdale New Par 5
7th - Shinnecock Par 3,
8th – Muirfield Par 4
9th – Loch Lomond Par 4

10th – Riviera Par 4
11th – Rustic Canyon Par 4
12th – Sunningdale Old Par 4
13th – Morfontaine Par 3
14th – Friar's Head Par 5
15th – Bethpage Black Par 4
16th – Cypress Point Par 3
17th – Spyglass Hill Par 4
18th – Pebble Beach Par 5

[Jud Tigerman]

Tom,

Great list but I find the 18th at Pebble a bit of a letdown, particularly given the other stellar names on your list...Were you just trying to find a final par 5 to get to par 72 or do you really think it's one of the best holes you've ever played?

[Tom Birkert]

Jud - I did want to get it to a par 72, I liked the idea of a par 5 to finish with, bringing the possibilities of eagles and doubles (or worse) and I couldn't think of a better finishing par 5 that I've played to complete the 18.

[Jim Franklin]

Tom,

Great list but I find the 18th at Pebble a bit of a letdown, particularly given the other stellar names on your list...Were you just trying to find a final par 5 to get to par 72 or do you really think it's one of the best holes you've ever played?

Wow, #18 at Pebble a let down . I almost selected that for my course, but love #8 so much I had to rearrange some holes.

And Matt, I do believe there are a great many people on this site (yo included) that can play some of the great courses in this country and the world for that matter. I do understand where you are coming from, but all Ultimate 18 hole course is any course not just public access.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

Great list but I find the 18th at Pebble a bit of a letdown, particularly given the other stellar names on your list...Were you just trying to find a final par 5 to get to par 72 or do you really think it's one of the best holes you've ever played?

Wow, #18 at Pebble a let down . I almost selected that for my course, but love #8 so much I had to rearrange some holes.

And Matt, I do believe there are a great many people on this site (yo included) that can play some of the great courses in this country and the world for that matter. I do understand where you are coming from, but all Ultimate 18 hole course is any course not just public access.

Jim,

You know 18 at PB really is a stinker.  Between the ocean waves crashing, the sea lions barking,  the risk reward nature of the hole, its terrible location, the horrendous views, the shack of a clubhouse behind....I'm surprised that hole even exists!!   

[Jim Sullivan]

Kalen,

Hate to do this to you again, but can you expand on the "risk-reward nature"?

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

Hate to do this to you again, but can you expand on the "risk-reward nature"?

Sure,

On the tee shot - One can "risk" challenging the hazard and bite off more by going left.  The "reward" is a shorter shot in that will also avoid the trees inteferring on the 2nd shot.

On the approach shot - One can also "risk" challenging the ocean again to either go for the green and/or being in better position for the 3rd shot in.  The "rewards" are either being on in 2 or having a shorter approach in and far enough left so the greenside tree does not stymie the next shot.

[Jim Sullivan]

It's been 10 years since I was there, are people regularly hitting the green in two these days?

[Kalen Braley]

It's been 10 years since I was there, are people regularly hitting the green in two these days?

Thats a good question....but whether or not they go for the green, it doesn't change the risk/reward on both the tee shot and 2nd shot.

On a side note, I do recall seeing some GCA.com discussion that postulated 18 is actually a better hole now because it has started to become reachable for not just the pros. With the additional option now tempting many to go home in 2, its only become more interesting.

[Mark Chaplin]

Matt Ward come to the UK where 98% of golf courses can be played for under $150

[Jim Sullivan]

I thought when I played it that the only way to get a lay up along the left side was by driving out to the right, but I forget how far out those little trees are...I don't think I was confortably past them...

Assuming I can't drive it comfortably past the trees, I'm sort of limited in options off the tee and those options are based on what sort of third shot I want. If I want a wedge or sand wedge in I need to hit driver between the ocean and the trees (about 30 yards?) and then hit a long iron with pretty good control, but not an incredible amount of risk...sure you can pull it into the ocean, but it's tough to plan against really bad shots.   If I am comfortable with an 8 or 9 iron into the green; I can hit a 3 iron off the tee and a 5 iron to just short of the corner, correct?

I agree that for those thinking about the green in two the hole has a tremendous amount of risk/reward...for the rest of us, I just don't see it.

[Jim Franklin]

Jim, I cannot see a player of your stature having an issue going for that green in two with the right conditions. If the wind is into you, no one goes for it. No wind or at your back and going for it in two is within a good player's ability. I am nowhere near as good as you, but hit it to 15 feet last time I played there.

[Jud Tigerman]

time to call in rees jones...

[Jim Sullivan]

Jim and Kalen,

I didn't realize it was regularly reachable, thnaks. If it is then the risk/reward shoots off the charts compared to the days when it is not.

Regardless, it's still a top finishing hole.

[Jim Franklin]

I have played there a half dozen times and only laid up once. I know most pros lay up because they are smart and generally trying to make a lot of money. I am not that smart and by the 18th hole, my match is either already won or lost so the outcome doesn't matter.

[David Stamm]

1-    Spyglass Hill, par 5
2-    Garden City, par 3                             
3-    Pasatiempo, par 3                             
4-    Victoria, par 5                             
5-    Colonial, par 4                               
6-    Creek Club, par 4                             
7-    MPCC Shore, par 3                           
8-    Pebble Beach, par 4                             
9-    Maidstone, par 4               
10-    Riviera, par 4             
11-    LACC North, par 3         
12-    Pacific Grove, par 5       
13-    Rustic Canyon, par 5               
14-    Engineers, par 3             
15-    Valley Club, par 5       
16-    Cypress Point, par 3         
17-    Stone Eagle, par 5             
18-    Wilshire, par 4


This totals 72. While it may be a bit odd with 6 par 5's, 6 par 3's and 6 par 4's, I could live with this.

[Tom Dunne]

Quite a coincidence-- I posted one of these just today, but it's only for Wales. It was a challenge to find good selections for every hole in the routing. There are two holes that I don't feel ironclad certainty about, but that's how it worked out:

http://out-and-back.net/?p=1328

[Sean Arble]

Here goes my offering - all from GB&I with the exception of a representative from the exceptional Tobacco Road.

1. Machrihanish  436: In the words of Rihc, this hole out capes any other!

2. Rye  180: The focus of this hole is fantastic because instead of looking at the green for a short hole we must look where to land the ball short of the green.

3. Huntercombe  367: Great driving hole and superb side by side two tier green.

4. St Enodoc  323: I would have taken the 4th at Sandwich, but from the back tees that hole loses its purpose for the handicap player.  That said, the 4th at St Enodoc is great use of poor land - this should be the architect's mantra.

5. Beau Desert  418: Lovely down n upper with an unusual green, but the great feature is the knob on the right of the green.

6. Sunningdale New  485: A glorious knob to knob par 5 sneaking around rough country on the right.  

7. Pennard  351: This may well be the ultimate drivable hole.

8. Troon  123: How can this hole not be on an ideal 18?

9. Co Down  486: Look at the photos.

10. Portrush Valley  496:  You gotta love a hole where driving into the wrong fairway is a much better play than sticking to the straight and narrow.

11.  Tobacco Road  531:  Talk about risk/reward!!!

12. Aberdovey  149:  Lets just hope this hole survives another 100 years - its that good.

13. Prestwick  460: The orientation of this green has to be on an ultimate 18.

14. Dornoch  445:  FOXY!

15. North Berwick  190:  This hole gets bashed about by fans of Macdonald, but its still THE Redan.

16. Addington  512:  I love reachable par 5s where length isn't the issue.

17. St Andrews  455: Its the Road Hole for crying out loud!

18. Kington  312:  Nuff said!



6719 total yards from the tips, but a generous par of 72 makes things a bit smoother for the high markers.  I would have liked to get to under a par of 70 and much closer to 6000 yards, but rules are rules.    

Ciao

[Cristian Willaert]

Here is my list. Indeed this was not an easy exercise, but a very pleasurable one. Like most I found that fitting in the par 5's was the most difficult part. Also it was sometimes frustrating that some of your favourite holes just could not be fitted in; probably a similar frustration to that of an architect that has to dismiss a great hole, as it doesn't fit in with the other holes on a given peace of land.

Nine different countries represented in my list.

Only one US hole in my list, as I haven't played much over there:

1. Machrihanish, Scotland p4, 436 yds (fits my natural draw)
2. Dornoch, Scotland p3, 177 yds
3. Alwoodley, England p5, 514 yds (I haven't played a better heathland par 5)
4. Boat of Garten, Scotland p5, 514 yds (underrated course)
5. Royal St George's, England p4, 418 yds (I actually prefer its looks to 4, in spite of the superior green complex on 4)
6. De Pan p4, Holland 427 yds (Tee-shot and approach can be blind)
7. Morfontaine p4, France 427 yds (absolute no-brainer for me; one of the best par 4's I have played)
8. St George's Hill, England p3, 180 yds
9. RCDown p4, N-Ireland 486 yds (no-brainer II)

10. Pasatiempo p4, USA 440 yds (For me perhaps the best hole on the course)
11. Ballybunion p4, Ireland 446 yds (Another one in the no-brainer category)
12. Fontainebleau p5, France 456 yds (short, maybe cheating a 4 into a 5, but the club lists this hole of great beauty, as a 5 on the scorecard)
13. Sperone p4, France 302 yds (great driveable p4)
14. Portrush p3, N-Ireland 210 yds (no-brainer IV)
15. Haagsche p4, Holland 412 yds (One of my favourite holes ever played, see Haagsche thread)
16. Royal Cinque Ports, England p5, 507 yds (surprised this did not come up earlier)
17. El Saler p3, Spain 213 yds (This hole alone is worth making the trip)
18. Ravenstein p4, Belgium 302 yds (Who said closing holes had to be long?)

Total: 6860 yds, par 72

Hope the continental European holes arouse some interest.

[James Boon]

Here goes...

1. Burnham & Berrow      380 yard par 4
2. Notts (aka Hollinwell)   460 yard par 4
3. County Louth (aka Baltray)   544 yard par 5
4. St Enodoc       323 yard par 4
5. Nairn          385 yard par 4
6. Brora          190 yard par 3
7. Huntercombe       213 yard par 3
8. Brancaster       494 yard par 5
9. Royal County Down       486 yard par 4

3,475 yards, par 36

10. Cavendish       422 yard par 4
11. Castle Stuart      144 yard par 3
12. Sherwood Forest       426 yard par 4
13. North Berwick      388 yard par 4
14. Royal Dornoch       445 yard par 4
15. Sutton Coldfield       189 yard par 3
16. Walton Heath       535 yard par 5
17. Hunstanton       445 yard par 4
18. Beau Desert      487 yard par 5

3,481 yards par 36

6,956 yards total

A fun exercise, but I cant help but think if you ask me in a months time it would be different? I couldn’t fine a place for any of my favourite Painswick holes, and the par of 72 had me playing hunt the half decent par 5? I also seemed to struggle when it came to favourite first or last holes? A few obvious ones on here ie 9 at RCD and Foxy at Royal Dornoch, but hopefully some to raise a query or two?

Also, I was suprised that it came out at almost 7,000 yards? I was expecting it to be much shorter, though I suspect if I wasnt restricted to a par 72 it may have been a par 69 or 70 and a lot shorter?

Cheers,

James

[Sean Arble]

Ooops - I didn't read all of the criteria.  Luckily, I have a hole waiting in the wings which solves the "problem".  Tobacco Road's 11th.   

Ciao

[Jud Tigerman]

James,

good call on Baltray.  I think that course doesn't get enough credit...Had a great old time there. Had to give my caddy a nip so that he could make it around.  When he asked where else we were playing his response to one of the courses cited (in a heavy accent) was " Aye- Portmarnock, it's a dogtrack ", which is a phrase we now repeat with tounge firmly planted in cheek when speaking of a myriad of courses...

[Tim Leahy]

This totals 72. While it may be a bit odd with 6 par 5's, 6 par 3's and 6 par 4's, I could live with this.

I always thought it would be great if every course was set up like that!

[Art Roselle]

I did not have a lot to add, so I decided to try to make it a real links course, which would route its way out and back, starting in the western half of the U.S.  Granted, it gets a little zig-zaggy, but don't most links courses do that from time to time?  Also, it is no worse than having to cross the ocean to get to the 8th tee!!

I clearly have some big gaps in the mid-west, which shows where I have played most of my golf, but I thought it was remarkable that I could even do this with the geographic limitations of an east-to-west-to-east routing.  Most of these really are in my top few favorite holes (certainly at each course chosen) and it satisfies all the rules. 

You could kill a lot of hours doing iterations of this (east-to-west, alphabetical, all courses in the top 50, no courses in the top 100, etc. etc.)
             
Here goes,                                               
                                                                Alternative Opening Route (more purely west-to-east)
#1 Sand Hills - par 5                                    #1 Spyglass - par 5
#2 Pinehurst - par 4                                    #2 SFGC - par 4
#3 Linville - par 4                                        #3 Sand Hills - par 3
#4 Highlands CC - par 3                                #4 Valhalla - par 4
#5 Merion - par 4                                        #5 Cullasaja - par 4
#6 Oakmont - par 3                                     #6 Yeamans Hall - par 3
#7 Pine Valley - par 5
#8 National GLA- par 4
#9 Royal County Down - par 4


#10 Turnberry - par 4
#11 Old Course - par 3
#12 Royal Dornoch - par 5
#13 N. Berwick - par 4
#14 Royal Portrush -  par 3
#15 Teeth of the Dog - par 4
#16 Pasatiempo - par 4
#17 Cypress Point - par 4
#18 Pebble Beach - par 5

nap

[Jim Thornton]

Here is my USA list.  I am doing another for International.

1.   Sand Hills, Par 5, 550 yd
2.   Prairie Dunes, Par 3, 160 yd, “Willow”
3.   The Country Club, Par 4, 450 yd, “Pond”
4.   Bethpage Black, Par 5, 517 yd
5.   Merion, Par 4, 505 yd
6.   Ridgewood , Par 4, 291 yd, “Five and Dime”
7.   SFGC, Par 3, 189 yd, “Duel Hole”
8.   Pebble Beach, Par 4, 440 yd
9.   Maidstone, Par 4, 400 yd
Out   Par 36, 3502 yd

10.   Riviera, Par 4, 315 yd
11.   Shinnecock, Par 3, 160 yd, “Hill Head”
12.   Oakmont, Par 5, 665 yd
13.   Pine Valley, Par 4, 450 yd
14.   NGLA, Par 4, 360 yd, “Cape”
15.   Friars Head, Par 4, 460 yd
16.   Cypress Point, Par 3, 225 yd
17.   Cal Club, Par 5, 495 yd
18.   Oakland Hills, Par 4, 498 yd
In   Par 36, 3628 yd
Total    Par 72, 7130 yd

[Jason Topp]

I find it interesting how many have included Sand Hills number 1.  I included it as well but not without a lot of thought.  There are other par fives I like better on the course (both on the back) , I do not think of it as a reachable hole, and the green is pretty severe even for a short pitch approach.

[mark chalfant]

1.  Prestwick   346
2.  Irondequoit  173
3.  NCR   432
4.  Toronto   185
5.  Monroe   453
6.  Oak Hill West   547
7.  Hamilton   428
8.  St. Georges  223
9.  Park CC  NY  598

10.  Scioto  407
11.  Ohio State  473
12.  Brookside  213
13.  CC of Buffalo  549  
14.  CC of Troy  367
15.  CC  Pepper Pike  457
16.  CalClub   138
17.  Double Eagle  355
18.  Olympia Fields South 538

[JNC_Lyon]

1.  Prestwick   365
2.  Irondequoit  170
3.  NCR   440
4.  Toronto   185
5.  Monroe   453
6.  Oak Hill West   545
7.  Hamilton (Colt)  428
8.  St. Georges  223
9.  Park  CC  NY  598

10.  Scioto  413
11.  Ohio  State  432
12.  Brookside  213
13.  CC of Buffalo  551 
14.  CC of Troy  342
15.  CC  Pepper Pike  428
16.  CalClub   138
17.  Double Eagle  355
18.  Olympia Fields South  512

Mark,

Great list!  Some great upstate representation.  The 6th on the West is great par five!  The interesting thing about it is that there used to be bunkers cut into the final hill about 150 yards from the green.  This would have presented a very interesting dilemma on the second shot.  Either way, the great greensite remains.

[Stewart Abramson]

This was an interesting exercise. I ended upm leaving out some of my favorite holes/courses becuase I couldn't fit them in to the rerquirements and tried to avoid back to back par 5's or 3 par threes on a nine etc. and I wanted to include a variety of holes, short and long as a well as types - Links, Desert., Heathland, Parkland...

1 - Prestwwick Par 4
2 -  (Photo) Par 3
3 - The Country Club  Par 4
4 -  Bethpage Black - Par 5
5 - Sunningdale Old - Par 4
6 - Western Gales - Par 5
7 - - Olympic - Lake Par 4
8 - (Photo) - Par 3
9 - Turnberry Ailsa -Par 4


10 - We-Ko-Pa- Saguaro Par 4
11 - Worplesdon - Par 5
12 - (Photo) Par 3
13 - Dunes Golf & Beach Club - Par 5
14 - Pasatiempo - Par 4
15- World Woods Pine Barrens - Par 4
16 - (Photo) Par 3
17 - Golden Horseshoe Gold - Par 4
18 - Bay Hill - Par 4

Attached are pix of the par 3's.