What do you expect for a $50 green fee? a $30 green fee?

[Mike_Young]

I am in the process of developing a five year masterplan for one of my projects I did 18 years ago.   Everyone is into cutting expenses via less sand, fairway, rough areas etc and it seems , in my area, that guys are trying to be able to make it on an average green fee of $45.00 with cart.  That means a lot of $60 fees averaged with the $30 and $25 discounts.  So many places have been built in the last few years that cannot function on such a green fee.  The old appraisals always used 40,000 rounds as the "number" but in truth it is more like a good 25,000 and in good years 30,000 will be the number.  That means a lot of our 16,000 golf courses will be striving for annual fees in the $900,000 to 1.1 million dollar range.  And many will be much less.....  ALSO in recent years the discounts we see in green fees etc are directly related to too much golf etc..and the courses still lose.....as this works itself out....and fees find a point where the consumer and the businessman can both make do.....what do you expect for a $50 green fee.....a #30 green fee  and can you live with it?   IMHO golf cannot grow anymore until we get below $50 for our normal everyday golf.....and it may even be lower.....

[Eric Strulowitz]

I am in the process of developing a five year masterplan for one of my projects I did 18 years ago.   Everyone is into cutting expenses via less sand, fairway, rough areas etc and it seems , in my area, that guys are trying to be able to make it on an average green fee of $45.00 with cart.  That means a lot of $60 fees averaged with the $30 and $25 discounts.  So many places have been built in the last few years that cannot function on such a green fee.  The old appraisals always used 40,000 rounds as the "number" but in truth it is more like a good 25,000 and in good years 30,000 will be the number.  That means a lot of our 16,000 golf courses will be striving for annual fees in the $900,000 to 1.1 million dollar range.  And many will be much less.....  ALSO in recent years the discounts we see in green fees etc are directly related to too much golf etc..and the courses still lose.....as this works itself out....and fees find a point where the consumer and the businessman can both make do.....what do you expect for a $50 green fee.....a #30 green fee  and can you live with it?   IMHO golf cannot grow anymore until we get below $50 for our normal everyday golf.....and it may even be lower.....

I wish they would just start making courses easier.  Slopes of 127+ not uncommon from the white tees, that is too hard for most golfers.  A slope of 110-115 from the whites would be most wellcome.  And their would be less lost balls, play would be quicker.

Secondly, walkability.  So few courses today are truly walkable.

[David Stamm]

Very good thread, Mike. I started playing a course again recently for the first time in about 10 years. It's owned by an individual, is very low key in a somewhat out of the way area in North San Diego County. The course during the week can be played after 1:30 for $15 (walking) or $10 for 9 holes. Unheard of price in So Cal! It's on a very good piece of property (no homes at all on the back nine), built in the '50's built by Harry Rainville and is alot of fun to play. It's a little over 6200 yds and is maintained decently. I like the place and it gives me the chance to get out in the afternoon during the week and get a quick 9 in for less than a bucket of balls around here. It's very walkable and offers some good honest strategic design. These type of places are what's needed, not more and more of CCFAD places.


http://www.fallbrookgolf.com/

[Adam Clayman]

I always liked Don Mahaffey's description at his place in Amarillo. They (his customers) only cared that the weeds were green. That was an $18 dollar green fee.

[Sean_A]

Mike

For $50 I think a damn good course, even a great course is a possibility.  I wouldn't expect the course to be in great nick nor the greens to be quick, but I would hope that there is a lot of creativity built in.  The best course I have seen in the States in recent years which fits that bill is Lederach.  I remain hugely impressed with what KBM came up with there.

Unfortunately, I don't expect designs anywhere near as good as Lederach for $50 (or to be honest, for $100) because experience tells me not to.     

For $30 it will all have to come together to create something special.  Its more realistic to be hopeful that the course is a good day out with a few very good holes, a few poor holes and a lot solid holes.  The condition isn't something I would worry much at all about at this level, though I still think greens can roll alright. 

The bottom line for me is I think the golfer should be getting more for his $50 than what is on offer at a lot of places these days.  I also agree that the average game cost for a significant percentage of golfers has to get easily below $50 or more courses will close. 

Ciao   

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Jeffersonville GC is a local muni that offers a Ross course, walkabilty, good conditions, a modest pro shop and a modest grill serving good hot dogs and beer. The restrooms could use some work but otherwise it's a great place to play golf. It's not a CCFAD- thank goodness:

http://www.westnorritontwp.org/golf.htm

http://myphillygolf.com/clubreview.asp?cid=208

The weekday senior rates are for me!!!

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

When all the elements of the economic funk we are in finally settle -- you will see many more golf course closings -- the benefit in having a lower fee will not save many of them. They are doomed. The go-to time frame that caused golf course development to ramp up without a real framework for intoducing more and more players means there are way too many course that are simply not going to be able to get this difficult and certainly dark period.

Many within the golf industry are chasing the same core limited audience. I mean how many folks can fork over $399 for a driver -- $50 for a dozen Pro VIx's, etc, etc ??

Heck, even driving ranges within the NYC metro area are charging $15 for a jumbo bucket of balls and you are lucky if the bucket doesn't contain a majority of clunker balls akin to the compression of a dunkin donut. Bring a family of three or more to such a situation and the reality is that you see less and less of such people spending their limited recreation dollars.

Mike, one final thing -- once courses go the discount route the long term health for them is seriously undercut. Once your audience expects such discounts the likelihood in retaining such people when rates go up is also a concern as these same people will simply walk to the next course that does a similar thing.

Candidly, many facilities believe they can charge what they charge because the next-door course is doing likewise.

The key influencers within golf simply believed the gravy train would go on without end. Frankly, the closure of 15-20% of the existing courses that are on the fence would likely make the overall survivors stronger and better positioned to rebrand themselves to a new audience as the 21st century unfolds.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - my honest answer? The dirty little secret is that there is no inherent or necessary difference between courses in the $30-$90 range.  All talk about architect fees and construction costs and maintenance practices and walkability is meant to do only one thing i.e. to take the attention off the purely business decision (or guess) that an owner makes -- "How much can I get away with charging these mooks?"

Peter

[CJ Carder]

I used to think I could make a fortune by working as a plumber / electrician / general handyman and doing nothing else except being courteous and showing up on time.  Similarly, I think the golf course that charges $50 and provides smooth greens, reasonable bunkers, and an interesting layout, could probably charge $100 because everyone and their brother would want to play there.  Most golfers know a good deal when they see one.  Provide me with those playing conditions in a 4 hour round and I'll pay just about whatever you want (within reason). 

And while I'm admittedly a bit uninformed on what you can do with a $50 green fee budget from a maintenance perspective, I don't see why the above can't be achieved.

Candidly, many facilities believe they can charge what they charge because the next-door course is doing likewise.

Couldn't agree more.  Unfortunately, we as consumers are gullible for the price=quality strategy.  However, usually that only works until the golfer has played the course once or twice.  With few exceptions, golfers want to enjoy their day on the course.  For the better players, that might mean criteria like I listed above.  For the higher handicappers, perhaps you're looking more for what was mentioned earlier in the thread - an easier course from the white tees with fewer lost balls.

[Sean_A]

Mike - my honest answer? The dirty little secret is that there is no inherent or necessary difference between courses in the $30-$90 range.  All talk about architect fees and construction costs and maintenance practices and walkability is meant to do only one thing i.e. to take the attention off the purely business decision (or guess) that an owner makes -- "How much can I get away with charging these mooks?"

Peter

Pietro

I think your response can be accurate at least some of the time.  What is often different between $30 and $90 is conditioning and better facilities.  I responded more from a practical financial PoV without the marketing aspect. 

Ciao

[Jim_Kennedy]

This past March I stayed in the NC/SC border region. On the Myrtle Strip $45.00 was a so-so course, most were well above that number. A short drive into the interior produced a some pretty nice courses that could be walked for less than $20.00. These were well kept and busy. They were catering to the locals, but also to the long term winter resident.

So much depends on who you're trying to have at your course and how many times you want to have them. If you supply the $45.00 golfers with good, smooth greens you'll keep them coming back. Adding reasonably well maintained tee boxes is a plus and filling fairway divots shows that you care. Most players really won't mind if you remove some hazards as they're out there to have a good time and not looking to be humiliated by the course. A few well placed, visible bunkers and some 2" rough is all that's needed at that price point to keep folks interested...and don't forget to keep the ladies room clean.  

[Mike_Young]

Guys I'm talking about the majority of the golf courses that make up golf in the USA.....not resort courses where we go for a few days a couple for times per year and will spend the $100 or more for the fee.....
I'm talking about a course some guy built in a community with say 25,000 people in a 15 mile radius(small town America)  say he can bring in $900,000 per year ( that may be high for a lot of courses across the country)  has maybe $200,000 in mortgage, 400,000 in maintenance and 75,000 in taxes and insurance and then proshop overhead before any profit.....and with a bad year here and there.....it doesn't work...
we are getting ready to see these guys get into $300,000 maintenance budgets....
Let's put it another way....I assume most on here would play 100 rounds per year.....that's $5000 for green fees if you average $50.....AVERAGE $50.......
Sean, I'm not thinking most golfers care about architectural merit.....they want a good putting that will allow a rock flite to stop....and that owner with the note is wanting that player to come in his door.....yes, there is a market for some at $75 and above but that is going to be a battle...
I see the little pushup green, triplexed 12 bunker, 6300 yard , fairways mowed with gang mower, smooth tees and solid smooth greens making a hell of a lot of the money in this business soon...and that owner is not worried about what the USGA, GCSAA, NGCOA or ASGCA tells him he needs to do.....OH there might be some $100 bills that never see the register with some of these old timers..

[Mike_Young]

This past March I stayed in the NC/SC border region. On the Myrtle Strip $45.00 was a so-so course, most were well above that number. A short drive into the interior produced a some pretty nice courses that could be walked for less than $20.00. These were well kept and busy. They were catering to the locals, but also to the long term winter resident.

So much depends on who you're trying to have at your course and how many times you want to have them. If you supply the $45.00 golfers with good, smooth greens you'll keep them coming back. Adding reasonably well maintained tee boxes is a plus and filling fairway divots shows that you care. Most players really won't mind if you remove some hazards as they're out there to have a good time and not looking to be humiliated by the course. A few well placed, visible bunkers and some 2" rough is all that's needed at that price point to keep folks interested...and don't forget to keep the ladies room clean.  

Jim,
I agree re the $20.00 model but how long can the ones you mentioned keep it up.....40,000 rounds is $800,000. 

[A.G._Crockett]

I'm talking about a course some guy built in a community with say 25,000 people in a 15 mile radius(small town America)  say he can bring in $900,000 per year ( that may be high for a lot of courses across the country)  has maybe $200,000 in mortgage, 400,000 in maintenance and 75,000 in taxes and insurance and then proshop overhead before any profit.....and with a bad year here and there.....it doesn't work...
we are getting ready to see these guys get into $300,000 maintenance budgets....
Let's put it another way....I assume most on here would play 100 rounds per year.....that's $5000 for green fees if you average $50.....AVERAGE $50.......
Sean, I'm not thinking most golfers care about architectural merit.....they want a good putting that will allow a rock flite to stop....and that owner with the note is wanting that player to come in his door.....yes, there is a market for some at $75 and above but that is going to be a battle...
I see the little pushup green, triplexed 12 bunker, 6300 yard , fairways mowed with gang mower, smooth tees and solid smooth greens making a hell of a lot of the money in this business soon...and that owner is not worried about what the USGA, GCSAA, NGCOA or ASGCA tells him he needs to do.....OH there might be some $100 bills that never see the register with some of these old timers..

Mike,
You are describing perfectly what I want nearby when I retire (again) and move away from the Atlanta area.  It doesn't exist here, but there are many such courses out there, and I'm headed that way.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
Economy of scale I guess. There were two courses in particular that were being managed by a Superintendent and his wife. They were about 20, maybe 25 miles apart. I'm sure there is some sharing of equipment (other than daily use machinery) and buying of turf related products. I rarely saw anyone working at either of these two places in the afternoon, maybe on a project, but it seemed like all the daily chores were done before noon. The pro shop staff was limited to one or two maximum, and outside of some balls, tees, etc. there wasn't much in the way of hard goods for sale.  Both had driving ranges of a rudimentary nature, what you'd most likely see before they all became learning centers or practice areas. Food was very limited, nothing fancy, but there was enough event space at each course to handle any outings. The busier of the two was close to a fair size city, with only one rather run down course as competition.  The other was located close to a recreation area that drew good summer business. People vacationing in that area weren't going to travel very far to play so the course enjoyed somewhat of a captive audience.

[Carl Rogers]

A very good thread!

On a thread I started acouple of weeks back about bunker maintenance and expectations, I was pilloried by a few for expecting some sand in a deep bunker (so I had a chance to get out of it) on a $60.00 course.  Perhaps I was not so far off base.

[Mike Sweeney]

http://www.nycteetimes.com/rates.cfm

Mike,

$52 for residents, $60 for non residents is the price for peak times at American Golf managed NYC courses with cart. You are allowed to walk for a cheaper number. Specifically at Split Rock, you get a Doak Scale 4 Stiles and Van Kleek course, that could be pretty good with a big redo. Soft but green conditions on the greens at an 7-8 on a stimp. Considering the amount of play, the greens stay in pretty good shape and if the greens at Split Rock were a 10 on the stimp, they would be in the very good category. If it was not for the pace of play, it would be an awfully good deal.

Obviously these places get a huge number of rounds to cover the higher wage scale around NYC.

[Jim Thompson]

Mike,
Not sure which project you are talking about and a current aerial would sure help, but that said...  For something in the average daily fee of $30 or less, I would expect to see a number of fairway bunker (say 75% of a standard design) replaced with furry circles, furry mounds, or those deals you did on the back at Long Shadow on 12?  I would also expect to see a thrid of the holes with converted or filled green side bunkers and another third of the holes with the approaches conveted to rough.  If I were being tasked with doing a "full conversion"  and the site allowed I'd reduce the surface area of the remaining sand while increasing the truf areas which feed to it.  I'd also take some greenside bunkers out while increasing the severity of those that remained.  At under $30 dollars I would also expect to find longer but thinner, the result of less frequent mowing and reduced fertility.  I also would have no problem with higher teeing surfaces.

At fifty dollars, I think the approacehes would have to be but back in and the use of furry mounds would be out of the playbook.  Greenside bunkers probably increase in number and decrease in severity, althoug I'd prefer the other option.  I'd also expect to see some deflection / collection areas around greens.

Regarding fairways... I think most operations maintain to much fairway surface anyway.  Not so much from a width standpoint, but from length.  I think most fairways start to soon and that players that top one or can't get it out there far enough actually benefit from a nice downgrain flyer lie ....

Cheers!

JT

[Shawn Arlia]

The city of cleveland owns a course named Highland Park. Its only 22 to play. While the tee boxes and fairways are adequately cut, the greens stand out as being exceptional. To me that is the what i exect from an inexpensive golf course. If the greens are cut and rolled so the ball rolls at an 8 or 9, then i will keep showing up to play golf there. Especially when im just trying to get out for nine holes during the week to enjoy myself or play with my friends. Btw, there s nothing worse than paying a ton of money to play golf, and then shooting well over your handicap. Always felt like a waste of money. Of course, if i played well then it felt like it worth it.

[Michael Huber]

Jeffersonville GC is a local muni that offers a Ross course, walkabilty, good conditions, a modest pro shop and a modest grill serving good hot dogs and beer. The restrooms could use some work but otherwise it's a great place to play golf. It's not a CCFAD- thank goodness:

http://www.westnorritontwp.org/golf.htm

http://myphillygolf.com/clubreview.asp?cid=208

The weekday senior rates are for me!!!

Hole for hole I'd say that Jeffersonville was certainly one of the better public courses in Philly.  There aren't too many clunkers on the course, and it blows away Westover, it's closes competition.

That being said, it is damn near unplayable during the weekends.  I've experienced six hour rounds at Jeffersonville and it's very unfortunate because it really is a fun course.

[noonan]

The city of cleveland owns a course named Highland Park. Its only 22 to play. While the tee boxes and fairways are adequately cut, the greens stand out as being exceptional. To me that is the what i exect from an inexpensive golf course. If the greens are cut and rolled so the ball rolls at an 8 or 9, then i will keep showing up to play golf there. Especially when im just trying to get out for nine holes during the week to enjoy myself or play with my friends. Btw, there s nothing worse than paying a ton of money to play golf, and then shooting well over your handicap. Always felt like a waste of money. Of course, if i played well then it felt like it worth it.

I agree here.

I can hit the ball in a field but the greens must be nice.

The subprime course usually has poorly (slow) maintained greens.

I played Reid Park in Springfield, OH today for $35 riding. The greens had to be 10 or more and you had to study the green to 2 putt. This is what more courses should strive for.

[Rob Rigg]

Mike,

I think Juniper GC in Redmond, OR is a great example of exactly what I would love to get from a $50ish experience.

Green Fees get up around $65 in the summer but on Mondays and Tuesdays you can get on for more like $30, and you can usually find a decent special.

The architecture is good and interesting, the course is in solid condition all the time and the greens are great (the climate in Central Oregon helps).

Juniper is my favorite muni - it is a fantastic place.

http://junipergolfcourse.com/

[john_stiles]

Most of the publics in Knoxville are around $30.  These are fine with minimal or no bunkering.  When the greens are very slow (below 8 lets say),  and we play a quick 9/18 after work,   I'll try and steer away from course X  until I hear a good report.

I really don't know why one of those courses is even still a golf course.  Seems, with the present economy and the RE market, they might remain a course for a few more years, or until the owner is ready to cash out.

[Mike_Young]

Seems like so many of the courses being mentioned in the price range and being good are muni courses....thus being subsidized......what does that say for the business owner and ability to make it work in that range....AND so many of the new ones we see today could not operate at a profit if someone gave them to you...... "Houston we have a problem"

[Michael Whitaker]

Mike - I think you are familiar with the Greenville, SC market. All of the public, privately owned, golf courses in the Greenville area are $35-$50 at their peak rates on Saturday morning (including cart). This includes the Walker Course at Clemson which is a very good course that is always in excellent condition... nearly private-club-level conditioning. The Furman University course (a fine old-school layout) is $45 on Sat morning, up from $35 last year because of a 1.5 million remodel of their greens. But, all the courses offer weekday and senior specials... Furman, for example, can be played for $25 during the week on a senior rate (55+).

In my area, if rates go above $50 (which has happened a few times in the past) the core golfing crowd stops playing there.