[TEPaul]

Actually, it's rather incredible how some of these events intertwine and interrelate to perhaps create something really positive. Where Wayne pissed involuntarily on the 18th green of Merion East (due to his "Perverse PeeWee Incontinence" problem), is the very same spot where Merion's Uber-superintendent Matt Shaeffer first developed his radical new idea and progam now known as "Surface Tension." The ultimate result is that greenspace becomes effectively sealed off so even a hundred year rain event cannot permeate the turf!

[JC Jones]

While enlightening, this thread has inspired much more interest in seeing Mountain Lake than hearing about the good man's kidney functions and their resulting effects on greenskeeping.

[Cory Lewis]

My two sense:

Fishers
National
Yale
St. Louis
Chicago
Camargo
Mid Ocean
Shoreacres
Yeamans Hall
Piping Rock
Fox Chapel
Monterey Peninsula (Dunes)
Mtn. Lake
Creek Club.
CC of Charleston
Greenbrier (Old White)
Blue Mound
CC of Fairfield
Sleepy Hollow
Lookout Mountain
Elkridge
Westhampton
Southhampton
Wanumetonomy

[JC Jones]

So is it decided that their work will be lumped together, even if Raynor did much work subsequent to Macdonald?

Is it fair to rate Raynor's individual work in with his co-design work with Macdonald?

[TEPaul]

Ah Psshaw. Anything about Mountain Lake is like a bag of stale donuts compared to some of the enlightening things that have developed at Merion due to Wayne Morrison and Matt Shaeffer et al. Those two are a couple of world class geniuses in many, many ways. They are like a couple of titan eccentric artists who occasionally combine to create the "Perfect Storm," as it were.

[JC Jones]

Ah Psshaw. Anything about Mountain Lake is like a bag of stale donuts compared to some of the enlightening things that have developed at Merion due to Wayne Morrison and Matt Shaeffer et al. Those two are a couple of world class geniuses in many, many ways. They are like a couple of titan eccentric artists who occasionally combine to create the "Perfect Storm," as it were.

So says you but I can say that one has inspired me to write a letter to see it, the other has not.

[TEPaul]

"So is it decided that their work will be lumped together, even if Raynor did much work subsequent to Macdonald?"

JC:

Perhaps some will decide to do that but it would be historically inaccurate.



"Is it fair to rate Raynor's individual work in with his co-design work with Macdonald?"


In my opinion, a few of the best architectural eyes and analysts can quite easily tell the difference between Macdonald architecture (Macdonald with Raynor) and architecture that is just Raynor!

[Matt_Ward]

Bill B:

I saw your inclusion of Banks into the mix -- if that were to be the case -- Forsgate / Banks is a bit better than you might realize.

Don't know if you have played the course since the recent work by Kay was completed. It is truly well done in a range of ways.

Good mention of Essex County CC -- few really know how good it is nationally.

[JMEvensky]

"Is it as strong today as it once was?  I get the impression it is not."


JC:

Definitely not as strong as it once was but there still are a few of The Chosen which in a real way includes the fact that one pretty much must have a house at both (although both were designed with small and very cool hotels as part of the deal)! Neither Mountain Lake nor Fishers Island are the types of places that an active member just sort of drives to from somewhere else if you know what I mean.  

Mountain Lake was also originally conceived with a component to it that I have never heard another club do or try. That is its extensive citrus groves (originally numbering in the thousands of acres) that contributes to the financial support of the Mountain Lake Corporation. It is still ongoing I am told. And right in the middle of this glorious place in the middle of Florida sits this fascinating carillon tower known as Bach's Tower that apparently makes the place the highest point in Florida or central Florida.

The "Chosen"?I'm betting the don'ts.

[JC Jones]

"Is it fair to rate Raynor's individual work in with his co-design work with Macdonald?"


In my opinion, a few of the best architectural eyes and analysts can quite easily tell the difference between Macdonald architecture (Macdonald with Raynor) and architecture that is just Raynor!

Since I have not seen the work of either or both, as it were, do you care to share with the ignorant what some of the glaring or obvious differences are between the Macdonald/Raynor work and the "just Raynor" work?

Thanks

[Donnie Beck]

"Is it fair to rate Raynor's individual work in with his co-design work with Macdonald?"


In my opinion, a few of the best architectural eyes and analysts can quite easily tell the difference between Macdonald architecture (Macdonald with Raynor) and architecture that is just Raynor!

Since I have not seen the work of either or both, as it were, do you care to share with the ignorant what some of the glaring or obvious differences are between the Macdonald/Raynor work and the "just Raynor" work?

Thanks

The biggest difference is Macdonald created broader shoulders on his green pads, which slightly shallow the angle of the bunker face. Raynor’s bunker faces tend to be a little steeper with a sharper transition at the green pad.

[TEPaul]

"The biggest difference is Macdonald created broader shoulders on his green pads, which slightly shallow the angle of the bunker face. Raynor’s bunker faces tend to be a little steeper with a sharper transition at the green pad."


Donnie:

And it's no wonder either if you compare and contrast Macdonald the person and Raynor the person. Engineers tend to think rectilinearly while guys of Macdonald's ilk tend to think curvilinearly particular if one drank the way C.B. did.

I actually came upon the transcript from the night at the Southampton Police station after C.B. got busted swerving all over Southampton in his car. The cops took him to the police station and as a sobriety test they asked him to walk a STRAIGHT LINE!

The transcript says C.B. absolutely exploded at both cops with: "You fucking uncouth "know-nothings," there is no way in hell either of you are capable of being even a half-baked golf course architect! It's not about straight lines and rectilinear thinking, you schmoos, it's about curved lines and curvilinear thinking and that's precisely what I was just out practicing in my car at midnight, you dunces!"

The cops looked at each other trying to decide whether to throw him in the brig or laugh and take him home. They laughed and took him home to his mansion overlooking NGLA and they dropped him off at the front door of the mansion at which Charlie exploded again with: "You two jerks aren't even MEN for Christ's Sakes! Take me down to my Hen House so I can play with my showgirls until dawn! And let me tell you they ALL have some of the finest curvilinear lines found anywhere! Matter of fact, one of them has the most lovely slightly curving broad shoulders that I copied on the bunker to green pad transition on #14."

While all this time the anal straight-laced non-imbibing, ultra-enginneer Seth Raynor had been in bed for six hours dreaming of some really straight and beautifully exact rectilinear lines!

[Chip Gaskins]

Tom-

Is that a true story about the Southampton police?

[TEPaul]

Chip:

That depends on what the definition of "true" is.

Do you remember that wonderful recent movie with Jack Nickolson and Diane Keaton called "Something's Got to Give?" At one point she said to him in desperation: "Are you incapable of telling me the truth?" to which he responded in mock shock: "I have ALWAYS told you SOME VERSION of the truth."

But seriously, you ask if C.B. ever saw the inside of the Southampton Police station due to inebriation combined with curvilinear driving? I can only answer that with the obviously answerable question: "Did the bear ever shit in the woods?

[Mark McKeever]

Don't forget Dedham Country and Polo Club!

Mark

[Bill Brightly]

Wow, THREE MacRaynor threads on the first page! That ought to help me get to 1000 posts!


TEP,

Do me a favor, tell Wayne there are 3 MacRaynor threads going on, ok?

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Yale is an absolute blast  and a real "must-play" if you are a student of MacRaynors. I tend to knock it down a notch due to its conditioning, which apparently is getting better each year. I will be interested to hear what Anthony's group things when they play it this month.

Bill

Even though I am not a student of any archie, I hope to see Yale one day.  Its certainly one of those courses on my wish list that seems doable. 

I came back to this thread after looking at the Fishers thread.  It would seem that folks have a lot of time for Fishers and judging by Ran's profile it isn't difficult to see why.

Ciao

[Joe McCormac]

Not sure it was resolved on this string, but I know there is an annual event named "CBM Cup Matches."  I would guess a prerequisite for participation is having a CBM designed course?  Too logical?  Chicago Golf Club members do not participate.

[Rick Shefchik]

Just curious -- do the Minnesota Raynors (Somerset, Midland Hills, Minnesota Valley) not make these lists because they're not considered good Raynors, or because nobody has seen them?

I think I know the answer.

Somerset is a fantastic golf course. Midland and MV are excellent, as well. Maybe Jeff Brauer could offer an informed opinion about where Somerset belongs on the Raynor list.
 

[TEPaul]

JoeM:

The Macdonald Cup you refer to is a 2-3 day event amongst some of the clubs Macdonald designed courses for. A couple of years ago I officiated at the Cup when held at The Creek. I think I'm safe in saying it consists of NGLA, Piping Rock, The Creek, Mid Ocean and St Louis. I should be sure but my mind is going it seems. I think I have a tie from it and perhaps the clubs are on it; can't remember that either but I'll look.

Donnie:

Last time I was at FI I think was with those five or so guys for about three days a couple of years ago and I seem to remember some talk about a potential hole that was never routed somewhere behind #12 and #14 greens running towards the 15th tee. What was that about if you've ever heard about it?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

Yale is a phenomenal layout on a particularly good piece of property.  It has been downgraded because of conditioning issues that have persisted for years...The new regime there claims to be committed to improving the maintenance of the course, but I haven't played it in the past few years to attest to this.  Charles Banks is quite an interesting character... Get out the Tamarack C.C. in Greenwich to check out his work if you get the chance....

Jud,

I don't believe that Yale should be categorized as "a particularly good piece of property"

The cost to blast and remove bedrock was enormous.
I believe Yale was the, or one of the, most expensive courses to construct at the time.
It would seem that the site was a hostile site in its natural form, and that only through extensive blasting and removal of tremnedous amounts of rock, did it allow itself to accomodate a golf course.

The same could be said of the site at Lido, without money, lots and lots of money, the site could never become a good golf course.

[Jud_T]

Patrick,

the budget was $400k, which was a fair chunk of change in 1924...point taken....

[TEPaul]

Macdonald claimed the cost of The Lido course (which included the cost of the land but which he did not break out and specify) was between $750,000 and $800,000. That was definitely a chunk of change in the mid teens.

PS:
Pat, thanks again for "Scotland's Gift Golf." I think over the years I've read it more and more often than any other golf architecture book in my library.

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