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Jud_T

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Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« on: October 11, 2009, 04:50:44 AM »
Played Lawsonia Links again today (40 degrees and a 2 club wind!).  I recon that besides being one of my personal favorites that this is one of the best, if not the best, courses I've played relative to the quality of the land it sits on-an average piece of Wisconsin farmland.  The brilliance of the fairway bunkering, mounding and particularly the greens complexes are stunning.  I wonder how TomD would score it today post tree removal.  I'd say at least a 7 if not even higher.  This led me to wonder what others thought were the best and worst courses they've played IN RELATION to the piece of property the architect was given to work with? I was also thinking about maybe nominating Lost Dunes, but arguably that is actually a good piece of sandy property albeit with a bunch of environmental concerns and an interstate running through it...Stone Eagle (?)-haven't played it yet...Chicago Golf (?) and what about the worst? Tralee? Old Head? haven't played those either but just speculating...
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

James Boon

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Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2009, 05:32:34 AM »
The PGA Centenary at Gleneagles has to be a good candidate for the worst course relative to property. I'm sure Nicklaus said it was one of the best pieces of land he had ever had to work with and yet the course itself is far from great! Long walks between greens and tees, major changes carried out by DMK, a dull uphill par 5 slog of a closer. Its probably not that bad a course, but its not the best at Gleaneagles, probably not even second best?

Cheers,

James
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Jud_T

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Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2009, 05:36:29 AM »
James,
Thanks for your reply...On a side note, I'd love to hear what you thought of Askernish.  Don't know anyone else who's played it...
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Norbert P

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Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2009, 12:22:17 PM »
Sandpines in Florence, Oregon has been lambasted hard on this site . . . deservedly so.

Torrey Pines North is much maligned for being an underachiever in the inspirational category. It has repetitive 5 o'clock - 7 o'clock greenside bunkering.  Its green fees have jumped explosively as well since prior to its US Open "doctoring".

Talking Stick North is an example of a great educational golf course arranged on featureless land. 

Wildhorse in Nebraska got its full potential realized.
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"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2009, 12:29:53 PM »
Does Wildhorse really qualify? I thought that was a real good piece of property to begin with, although I have yet to get out there.
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Scott Warren

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Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2009, 12:35:37 PM »
I asked one half of this question a while back and was assured The Links at Spanish Bay was the worst course on the best site.
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Kyle Henderson

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Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2009, 12:51:07 PM »
Best course relative to site: Stevinson Ranch (Harbottle III), a Doak 6 or 7 on a Doak 2 site (flat wetlands) that still managed to make the Audobon list.

Worst: Brentwood (Robinson), beautiful rolling Hills with native oaks (Doak 5+ potential, even with housing) replaced by concrete ponds, greenside waterfalls, and pine trees (Doak 2).

Spanish Bay was a crater due to sand mining before the course was built, so its hard to judge how well the architects did with the site without seeing the pre- and post- state of that plot. Also, the environmental areas forced upon the course after it opened to protect the native species planted in the dunes constructed around the course (irony?) prevent the layout from living up to its potential. Certainly, the present course is overpriced and could be a much better track, but the original site wasn't as great as one might assume.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 01:14:46 PM by Kyle Henderson »
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Norbert P

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Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2009, 01:08:18 PM »
Quote from: Jud Tigerman on October 11, 2009, 12:29:53 PM
Does Wildhorse really qualify? I thought that was a real good piece of property to begin with, although I have yet to get out there.

"This led me to wonder what others thought were the best and worst courses they've played IN RELATION to the piece of property the architect was given to work with?" Jud T.



Wildhorse is an example of having terrific land and Dan Proctor and Dave Axland, et al, made the most of it. It really is the poster course that exemplifies how a golf course should fit with the land.  It is harmonious. The golf design never diminishes the land; it accentuates it.
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"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Cliff Hamm

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Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2009, 01:09:13 PM »
Perhaps naive but when I play Lawsonia I wonder why more courses today can't be built of this quality.  Just a wonderful course.
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David Schofield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2009, 01:20:46 PM »
When I play Lawsonia I wonder how the heck they got the 0.5:1 slopes stablized during construction...  ???
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Bart Bradley

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Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2009, 01:37:05 PM »
Best is certainly the Rawls course in Lubbock TX...not just flat and featureless but very difficult clay type soil....

Jud:

Why would you say "Tralee" as  a possible worst?  Tralee is a blast...see Ran's profile..it has some updated photos and I thought the place had some real quality holes.   I'd be happy to discuss the holes individually if you wish.

Bart
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Kalen Braley

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Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2009, 01:41:09 PM »
I know its cliche but SandPines.

It really is a wonderful location and its a shame to see what became of it.

As for worst piece of land...I know it was pricey to build, but from what I've seen of pics, Shadow Creek is just epic considering it was once just flattish, scrub desert.
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Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2009, 02:21:46 PM »
Cliff, more courses could and certainly should be built like Lawsonia.  But most developers don't want a subtly fun course for all abilities.  They want a championship layout by a name architect that has impulse buy features to sell property or memberships.  The silver lining of this deep recession is that the economics of the game may be forced back to more traditional design and maintenance ideals. 
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Doug Ralston

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Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2009, 02:25:32 PM »
Surely Tim Liddy's Trophy Club in Indianapolis is a really nice track on basic farmland [not sure how good a property that implies]. Doak 6-6.5, I would guess.

My beloved Eagle Ridge in E KY was built on property I have heard many say no course could have or should have been built upon. I absolutely love it ...... not everyone who plays it does [to say the least].

I admit I am uncertain how good vs bad properties are defined. Except for necessities like water resources and the like, is there not enough ideas for how to use practically any landform?

And please, no one again come with Bay Harbour. Hasn't that one been beaten up enough? Hard to prove you'de have done better, unless you wanna buy the property and start over. If you wanna see some good Art Hills, go to Kentucky. Musta liked that place.

Doug
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Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2009, 02:27:08 PM »
Bart, I was going to suggest the Rawls as well but didn't want to show my kool-aid proclivities.  As for Tralee I will defer to others as I skipped it when I was in the hood but folks I respect say its a wild property that, as usual, Palmer didn't get the most out of.
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2009, 02:32:39 PM »
Doug- I have yet to play a really great Art Hills track and I've played a few, public and private. If I come to Kentucky, my guess is it won't be to play an AH layout, but as usual I may be proven wrong.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 09:57:45 AM by Jud Tigerman »
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2009, 02:53:56 PM »
Quote from: Jud Tigerman on October 11, 2009, 02:32:39 PM
Doug- I have yet to play a really great Art Hills traclk and I've played a few, public and private. If I come kentucky, my guess is it won't be to play AH layouts, but as usual I may be proven wrong.

I always find myself sticking up for Mr. Hills based on a sample of one - Newport National in Rhode Island.  While not great, but how many are?...It is very, very good. Clearly 4.5 stars in GD Places to play ;D
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Matt_Cohn

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Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2009, 03:29:50 PM »
Quote from: Kalen Braley on October 11, 2009, 01:41:09 PM
As for worst piece of land...I know it was pricey to build, but from what I've seen of pics, Shadow Creek is just epic considering it was once just flattish, scrub desert.

Kalen - I've made this point elsewhere but wasn't Shadow Creek a perfect piece of property? Didn't Fazio say something to that effect? There was nothing preventing him from creating whatever he wanted. Sounds like a good spot to me.
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Patrick Glynn

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Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2009, 05:55:49 PM »
The Cashen Course at Ballybunion has to be on the Worst Course relative to Property to my mind... Or was the terrain too severe?
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Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2009, 06:34:14 PM »
Patrick-a crap course. 1 on the Doak scale. Not enough property and too severe.  In the context of this thread though, not sure it rates.  Where it clearly rates is worst course next to a great course.  I've never seen a bigger disparity in a 36 hole complex.  Probably deserves its own thread, but I think that's been done
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2009, 07:27:55 PM »
The sacred nine
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Matt_Cohn

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Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2009, 07:35:31 PM »
What about Poppy Hills? It's not a bad golf course, but then you see the inland holes at Spyglass and Cypress Point and MPCC on basically the same land, and the difference is huge. On such great land, they only came up with a couple of exceptional holes.
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David Stamm

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Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2009, 07:54:42 PM »
I don't know if it's a "bad" property, but considering how difficult the site was, Pasatiempo's design exceeds the property IMO. Ojai Valley Inn is another.


Now, for a bad course on a good piece of property. Cross Creek in Temecula, CA was a blown chance. A fanatstic property with a bad design, which incidentally is being heavily reworked right now. Torrey is an obvious one. I would say Spyglass does not meet the propety, although the course is good. I think it could've been better. Sandpiper, another WFB course like Torrey, was another blown chance.
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Kyle Henderson

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Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2009, 01:05:41 AM »
Quote from: Matt_Cohn on October 11, 2009, 07:35:31 PM
What about Poppy Hills? It's not a bad golf course, but then you see the inland holes at Spyglass and Cypress Point and MPCC on basically the same land, and the difference is huge. On such great land, they only came up with a couple of exceptional holes.

I've only played PH once and walked the MPCC-Dunes course. But, as I recall several of the forested MPCC holes (1,2,3,5,6) were nothing exceptional, certainly not a clear step up from those at PH. Spyglass and The Dunes both suprass PH primarily when they leave the woods for the dunes (and the rocky shorline at MPCC). Agreed?
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Kyle Henderson

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Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2009, 01:08:28 AM »
Speaking of Art Hills, I was severely dissappoint by his course at Half Moon Bay. Granted, it is a small parcel, but I still hoped for at least one or two outstanding holes that never materialized.
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"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo
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