Part II, The windy day at GCGC

[Patrick_Mucci]

Winds were probably steady at 20+ mph and gusting in the 40-50 mph range, yet, the golf was a blast.

Keeping the ball low into head winds was a requirement of the day, yet, teeing it up and getting it as high as possible was great when you were down wind.

Even little pitches with my L-Wedge would get pushed hard by the wind.
On one hole, facing a 15 yard pitch with my L-wedge, the ball wasn't 5 yards away from me when it was blown sideways.
I altered my game plans after that

Hitting punched 5-6-7 irons from 100 yards and chipping with a 4-iron from 30-40 yards off the green was also fun.

What made an enjoyable day possible was ONE architectural feature........ WIDE fairways.
Without them, the day would have been impossible, a real chore instead of a real blast.

I don't recall playing in such strong winds, but, I really liked it.
The fact that it was relatively warm helped make the day so much fun.

However, putting was a challenge.

On several holes, golfers marked their ball, replaced it, only to see it roll a foot or two away due to the wind.

One fellow, who putts with a long putter, was doomed.  He couldn't alter his stance.
He couldn't choke up, widen his stance and bend down to anchor himself, and thus, was blown off the ball quite frequently, making a smooth stroke next to impossible.

The joy of hitting the ball 10 or more yards right or left of the green and watching as the cross wind brought it back was great.

Adapting to the strong winds was challenging but fun.

While par or better was always a goal, realistically, you knew it wasn't likely, thus, par took on less significance but scoring remained an objective.

It's my belief that playing in those winds on a daily basis should make the golfer a better player, or  an ex-golfer, I don't think there's a happy medium.

I also believe that in order to better meet the challenge, a draw, especially a low draw, is the required shot.
Without it, scoring is far more difficult.

The only drawback to the day was the debri from trees in the area.
The closer the trees, the more debri
It made putting and finding your ball more difficult.

I had fun that day.
I attribute that fun to ONE factor.
Wide fairways.
Who else played that day, wednesday, and what were your experiences in the wind ?

[Ronald Montesano]

As I indicated in Part One, the winds were howling in western New York.  I wouldn't say that the fairways at Harvest Hill (Hurdzan, et al) are especially wide, but I will relate one story.  One of our freshmen asked if he should aim at the trees to the left of the first fairway.  The stand of trees is OB and is left of the rough.  My answer was simple.  I suggested that if he hit a great shot that bored through the wind, he would find himself hitting three on the tee.  Instead, I recommended that he aim at the left edge of the fairway as usual, hit his normal fade, and see how the wind affected the shot.  He won 4 of 4 points.  He did not, however, hit any 15 yard L Wedge shots.

For me, the wind was a joy.  I played with two other coaches and hit shots that neither of them knew how to play.  They marveled that a non-pro could envision and risk the low punch.  It was quite rewarding to not only pull the shots off, but to introduce them to two other journeyers. 

[Tim Bert]

Patrick

I didn't play in that part of the country on that day, but we played a couple of weeks ago at Ballyneal in the same conditions you mention and the golf would have been miserable if the fairways didn't provide ample room for play and the greens did not allow for a variety of approaches.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ron,

When you're in deep rough near the green, the L-wedge is the club of choice.

[Sean_A]

Playing in 20mph winds with gusts up to 30ish mph is quite common over here.  Much more wind than that and a few problems occur.  First, not many courses are wide enough to take a steady 30ish mph wind.  Second, with 30ish mph comes 40-50 mph gusts and balls blow around on greens.  I recall my day down at West Cornwall this past spring and the winds were really blowing between 30-50 all day, but the course was playable with minimal time searching for balls.  This added feature gives courses like this a boost in my estimation.  The architecture may not be as good as some courses, but it is playable in nearly all weather conditions.  I can recall playing Strandhill in high winds and it was very playable whereas the others on that trip couldn't hold up nearly as well because of the course being narrowed by rough and or bunkers.  The lack of width is why I think many of the championship courses over here aren't nearly as good as touristas and so called expert raters give them credit for.  

Ciao

[brad_miller]

Pat,

We played GCGC yesterday, note quite the winds of this past midweek but still plenty. A true blast, if not for the wonderful fairway width it might have been a different story. If GCGC isn't the most fun of all NYC metro area courses you all "can bite me." The wind was in play on every shot and had to be accounted for and used to your best advantage and/or shots played to best reduce its effect. I can't see how playing more in the wind would not help ones game.

[Niall C]

Playing in 20mph winds with gusts up to 30ish mph is quite common over here.  Much more wind than that and a few problems occur.  First, not many courses are wide enough to take a steady 30ish mph wind.  Second, with 30ish mph comes 40-50 mph gusts and balls blow around on greens.  I recall my day down at West Cornwall this past spring and the winds were really blowing between 30-50 all day, but the course was playable with minimal time searching for balls.  This added feature gives courses like this a boost in my estimation.  The architecture may not be as good as some courses, but it is playable in nearly all weather conditions.  I can recall playing Strandhill in high winds and it was very playable whereas the others on that trip couldn't hold up nearly as well because of the course being narrowed by rough and or bunkers.  The lack of width is why I think many of the championship courses over here aren't nearly as good as touristas and so called expert raters give them credit for.  

Ciao

Sean

I don't recall Strandhill being as wide open as you suggest but then I haven't played for a number of years.

Re your comments on UK championship courses and being over rated because of their lack of width, I really have to wondr where you're coming from. Firstly they are championship standard because they are a test. I am by no means a good golfer but I played for a numbe rof years at Silloth, a top 50 UK links course that gets plenty of wind, and saw all class of golfers manouvre the ball round the course. Yes, they had adapted their game over time to be able to cope with the generally windy conditions, but isn't that what golf is all about ?

I really don't understand the idea of widening a course on a windy site just so someone who isn't used to wind can stand up and blast away with a driver the way he usually does with no regard for the conditions.

Niall

[Mike Policano]

Pat, I played CC of Fairfield in a similiar wind two weeks ago. It was crazy with the Long Island Sound crashing on the beach. The most fun was on the fourth hole, as you know, the 135 short with the green sticking out into the water on the right.

The wind was gusting from the right. We watched the group in front hit at the green and watched their balls hit 30-40 yards left of the green by the little protective shed. I hit my 165 club low and right 20 yards over water and yelled for it to blow left. We laughed as the ball blew and landed on the right side of the green at the last moment.

I think we laughed harder when our third player tried to hit over the wind and wound up next to the shed. Of course he couldn't hear us laugh. The wind was too loud.

Cheers    

[Steve Lang]

  At Ballyneal with Tim Bert and the Colton Party several weeks ago:  the wind was very much in play, pants legs and hats were flappin, balls quivering and being pushed, balance was challenged, elevated/exposed places alternated with somewhat protected spaces, making transition shots interesting.. luckily at that course the ground game is alive and well.. and width.. it is quite expansive there to say the least helping tremendously

   I carried D, 2w, 7w, 4,6,8,10 irons, 53°wedge, and putter in the bag, to make club selection/shot selection more straightforward..
 
In Houston area, given relatively flat environs, its the trees that usually offer protection and transition issues when playing in the winds..  fortunately for me, playing short and below the tree tops and down the center corridors is often better, though the rains and/or protective watering make the ground game around the greens poor at best at many courses, width is truly appreciated.

   Width rules..

too bad ANGC has reduced it.


p.s. i still haven't put those 5 missing clubs back in the bag..

[Martin Toal]

I played St Andrews New one day with 2 friends, a 0 handicap and a 9. It was a Friday in June, and we arrived at 12 noon, so the fact there was literally nobody on the course is a clue to the fine weather that prevailed. We went into the clubhouse and asked if the course was busy, partly tic. The pro recognised our wit and responded "what do you ***ing think?". The altimeter was reading between 30 and 40 mph. "That is only at clubhouse roof height, it'll be windier higher up" he noted.

Still, we were hardy Celts, so we wrapped up and headed off. The first is a par-4 of 340 yards. Our scratch, a fine golfer, now off +2, hit 2 1 irons and was 20 yards short. I hit a driver and once it sniffed the wind, it was off towards the second of the Old. There was nobody on that either, so I played it back (even though it was OOB). I have therefore hit 1 shot on the Old in my golfing life. There was one birdie on the front 9, a par-5 which I birdied with a low drive, a lower 3 wood and a rather fortunate 7 iron. The next was a par-3, playing about 180. We all hit driver. We were all short.

By this stage, it was pouring with rain, so the scratch was now gripping his club with a towel and swearing he was giving up golf. Golf is a bit more fun downwind,  3 wood and middle iron to go through the par-5 12th green, but it was possibly the wettest and windiest game of golf I have ever played, and I didn't warm up until the following Tuesday.

No lob wedges were hit that day.

[Jud_T]

When our group played Turnberry a few years back the winds were gusting up to 60mph and the rain was coming sideways.  It was a struggle to stand erect, you had to lean into the gale. I hit driver 360 downwind and the hit the same club pin high on a 150 yd. par 3 into the wind.  It was a lot of fun, primarily in the surviving the elements department.  A lot of scotch was drunk.  Medal play was out the window, but I must say the par I got on the par 5 coming into the wind (17?) by getting up and down from nowhere was one of the most satisfying ever...

[brad_miller]

Wind is great, too much is not. More than 3-4 club type wind might be too much for fun regardless of course. Something like 20-30 mph with gusts to 40, much above or when golf ball moves when remarked on greens on many holes not just once or twice.

[Jason Topp]

When I played Barnbougle, you had to avoid being downwind from bunkers or you got blasted.  When I stood on one tee (I think it was 18)I was getting sandblasted in the face.  I couldn't figure out the source because no bunkers were nearby.  I finally figured out it was sand from the beach which was a long ways away.

[Keith Phillips]

Pat, I played Plainfield Wednesday afternoon as a guest - my second time there and needless to say my first time in 3+club winds - the two members were a 3 and a 5, and the guests were high-teen handicappers - the 3 loves to play the back-back tees, so we played 7150 yards in gale-force conditions - potential for disaster but a surprisingly happy ending - while standing on the exposed range at Plainfield we had difficulty grounding ourselves, and thought for a moment we might be better off taking a 'wind-check' but we played on.

We were all impressed how playable Plainfield was in such conditions - as the high man in the foursome (19) I shot a 53-45 and was amazed to break 100 (course rating 75.3/146) - I did hit the ball better than I have all year, but with all the tree-clearing Plainfield has accomplished, the course was very playable in the wind and strategy on tee shots and long irons were surprisingly unaffected for all of us - I did hit two great 80-yard pitching wedges and one 70 yard bump and run with an 8-iron, all of which would have been LW or SW in other conditions - it was a blast standing over an 80 yard shot into 12 with PW and LW in hand trying to decide what to do - I finally chose to punch the PW and hit a shot I have rarely tried but will use even in still conditions in future!  The tees were up to about 210 on the 14th hole and I had to crush a driver straight into the teeth of the wind to clear the water in front of the green! 16 played 582 into the wind and I played it as a par-6 and did just fine

[Jaeger Kovich]

Can someone translate for me please... What Golf Club does GCGC stand for?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

We played GCGC yesterday, note quite the winds of this past midweek but still plenty. A true blast, if not for the wonderful fairway width it might have been a different story. If GCGC isn't the most fun of all NYC metro area courses you all "can bite me." The wind was in play on every shot and had to be accounted for and used to your best advantage and/or shots played to best reduce its effect. I can't see how playing more in the wind would not help ones game.

Brad,

I think it would force you to learn how to hit a draw, especially a low draw, with every club in your bag.
I also think it would force you to create/consider shots other than your "typical" shot/s

The ability to fight, rather than fall victim to the wind would seem to the key to better scoring.

It's my sense that Nicklaus popularized the fade or power fade, but, before that, it seemed that the DOG's, especially those from the UK, seemed to favor a draw in their designs, perhaps from their early experience with wind in the UK.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Niall Carlton,

Strong winds reduce the effective size of the fairway by 1/3 to 2/3, therefore, width is a must, unless you equate the game of the PGA and European Tour Pros with that of the average golfer.

Mike Policano,

I love CC of Fairfield, especially since there's hardly a tree on the inside of the property.

CC of Fairfield also has generous fairways  and interesting greens.
I'm jealous, it must have been a blast.

Steve Lang,

ANGC is still very wide, but, I don't think it's a particularly windy site.

Brad Miller,

I'd agree that more than a 4 club length wind is excessive, but, it might be fun once a year provided the ball remains stationary on the greens.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jaeger,
GCGC= Garden City Golf Club

Pat, Wednesday was a fun filled day here, too, and we have enough width to be able to say that.

What I liked was that at times the wind was doing a 180 in mid hole, and it was also blowing down toward the ground so there were a few occasions when guys underclubbed, significantly.   

All in all, a good time.

[Steve Lang]

  Pat,

Would you like to play in such windy conditions more than say, 10-20% of your rounds? 

IF its windy where you live/play, that's one thing, but I find inclement weather usually empties the course more than fills it.. and definitely promotes match play.. as well as insprie survival traits..

[David_Elvins]

I had fun that day.
I attribute that fun to ONE factor.
Wide fairways.

Patrick, 

Do you think the open fronts of the (often tilted) greens is another great design feature at Garden City that made the golf fun?  I could imagine trying to punch a low running shot onto a hole like 10 or 15 would have been great fun. 

To me it is another wonderful design feature at Garden City that is underused elsewhere. 

[Sean_A]

Playing in 20mph winds with gusts up to 30ish mph is quite common over here.  Much more wind than that and a few problems occur.  First, not many courses are wide enough to take a steady 30ish mph wind.  Second, with 30ish mph comes 40-50 mph gusts and balls blow around on greens.  I recall my day down at West Cornwall this past spring and the winds were really blowing between 30-50 all day, but the course was playable with minimal time searching for balls.  This added feature gives courses like this a boost in my estimation.  The architecture may not be as good as some courses, but it is playable in nearly all weather conditions.  I can recall playing Strandhill in high winds and it was very playable whereas the others on that trip couldn't hold up nearly as well because of the course being narrowed by rough and or bunkers.  The lack of width is why I think many of the championship courses over here aren't nearly as good as touristas and so called expert raters give them credit for.  

Ciao

Sean

I don't recall Strandhill being as wide open as you suggest but then I haven't played for a number of years.

Re your comments on UK championship courses and being over rated because of their lack of width, I really have to wondr where you're coming from. Firstly they are championship standard because they are a test. I am by no means a good golfer but I played for a numbe rof years at Silloth, a top 50 UK links course that gets plenty of wind, and saw all class of golfers manouvre the ball round the course. Yes, they had adapted their game over time to be able to cope with the generally windy conditions, but isn't that what golf is all about ?

I really don't understand the idea of widening a course on a windy site just so someone who isn't used to wind can stand up and blast away with a driver the way he usually does with no regard for the conditions.

Niall

Niall

The problem with championship courses is they only host championships once in a blue moon yet the championship test conditions persist everyday regardless of weather.  I don't know how good a player you are, but there are plenty of second tier courses which are more than test for all but the best of players.  The more extreme conditions or terrain is, the more width is necessary.  There are far and few championship courses which pull of the double act of being a challenge for the best players and very playable for the club player. 

I have never, ever worried that a course was too easy, but I have seen more than a good amount of courses that are too difficult. 

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Would you like to play in such windy conditions more than say, 10-20% of your rounds? 

I wouldn't mind it.

IF its windy where you live/play, that's one thing, but I find inclement weather usually empties the course more than fills it.. and definitely promotes match play.. as well as insprie survival traits..

If it was cold or rainy and cold I wouldn't like it, but, it was a relatively warm day.

With thin blood, once it gets below 60 degrees I start to get cold unless I really bundle up, and then I can't swing well with all those layers of clothing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I had fun that day.
I attribute that fun to ONE factor.
Wide fairways.

Patrick, 

Do you think the open fronts of the (often tilted) greens is another great design feature at Garden City that made the golf fun? 
I could imagine trying to punch a low running shot onto a hole like 10 or 15 would have been great fun. 


I think the open fronts are a bonus, and certainly provide more options, more thought.

Into the wind I went aerial, down wind I factored in the run and tried to hit short.

Cross winds added a full club to the shot.

The terrain and wind and distance dictated each shot.

GCGC has 12 open front greens, Mt Ridge 15.

Mt Ridge's greens are also open in front, allowing for run-ups to certain hole locations.

To me it is another wonderful design feature at Garden City that is underused elsewhere. 

I think the seemless transition from fairway to green promotes the run-up.
It's rare to find those seemless transitions, although Preakness Hills in NJ has an abundance of them, as does Hidden Creek.

[Chuck Brown]

Pat, Tom Doak is typically modest about his work at Garden City; you may have the requisite experience to judge before-and-after.  What are your thoughts?  Where would you put Garden City in the great pantheon of Metropplitan area courses?  My impression, having not had the privilege to play there, is that it is in the top handful of the historic clubs that is most fun to play every day.

[Jud_T]

Niall,

I only want to play Championship courses.  Unless it's 7200 yards, requires a 275 yard drive through a very narrow corridor, has plenty of trees, water and forced carries, and I don't have a chance in hell of shooting within 5 strokes of my handicap, I don't feel like a man