[Robin_Hiseman]

I was down at Wentworth this lunchtime and popped across to see how things were coming along on the new 18th.  

It is DRAMATICALLY different now.  The closest comparable greens complex I can think of is.....Hole 10 at The Belfry  I kid you not.  There are more railroad sleepers shoring up this green than you'd find on the Trans-Siberian railway.  A wide stream (9-10 feet) snakes across the approach, so it is going to be a forced carry into the green.  There are several bunkers around the green (though less than before)  and they are all quite deep and semi-revetted.  The green is way up in the air and from the approach I could not see the putting surface at all.  It isn't finished yet, but I think they may need to bring it down a touch, or at least camber the green so that you can see it.

It's going to be a tight schedule to get this ready for the PGA next May.  The leaves are falling now and the frost won't be far away.

I didn't have my camera on me today, but will pop back down next week and take a couple of snaps and try to upload them here.

[John Mayhugh]

That's quite the visual.  Can't wait to see some pictures.

[Frank Pont]

Sounds like a solid Colt restoration job... oh well, one more original Colt green gone forever 

[Tony_Muldoon]

More than one...

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=7po94rsvrf9u49u1v9qkgvgbn7&topic=41136.0 

[James Boon]

Hi Robin,

Hope you are well?

Would love to see a photo of what they have done to the 18th at Wentworth if you get a chance to pop back and take one?

Cheers,

James

[Robin_Hiseman]

Yes, I'll nip down with the camera when I get a minute, but in the meantine if you visit the Wentworth club's website you can see several current photos from the progress report.  Link below.

http://www.wentworthclub.com/golf/3186/

[Brian Phillips]

I see the Architect is Greg Letsche from the ASGCA.  Now I understand the not so British bunkering.

[Ben Stephens]

Judging from the photos of the Wentworth site - The Burma Road course that we used to love or hate seems to me has disappeared off the radar. Now it is replaced by its long lost evil twin! - it looks Rees-'ified' - the work looks similar to what happened at Cog Hill.

I have great respect for Ernie as a golfer and how he manages himself on the course, but have serious question marks of him as a golf course architect - it seems that there is a bit of disrespect for Harry Colt's vision and as a golf course architect not really trying to restore Colt's original vision. I think the stream on 18 (artifical) and the serious lack of reintroducing heather as a form of hazard is a joke. The bunkers look too similar to each other. 

I feel that Wentworth is now 'Americanised', especially with the introduction of the ryegrass in the rough, rather than one of those Surrey heathland gems. 

One of my regrets is not playing the course before these dramatic changes.

[Paul_Turner]

Robin

I'd really like to see some pics!

Also if there are any members out there, I wonder what they think of the big changes and the scope of the changes being continuously stretched.  

The original info that came out of the club stated that  Colt playing characteristics of the greens would be "maintained".  But now the green complexes and surfaces have been radically changed (to date) at:  3,8,9,11,12,14,16,17,18 ....!  But I suspect the members don't have any real clout at Wentworth and the club's press releases basically now ignore Colt.

(Els changing the 16th green is bizarre, he used to comment on how he loved that green complex and used to practice on it regularly since it was next to his house).

I guess it's a classic example of the pro game not being compatible with preserving original golf courses: like Augusta etc and so similarly the Burma Road is now almost a Colt/Morrison course in routing only.

(Will the East be left alone, for an enjoyable and not too punishing round?)

[Robin_Hiseman]

Finally managed to get back down to Wentworth and gather a few shots of the new 18th green for you.  And worked out photobucket at long last.

I'm just going to put them up one after the other and let the discussion commence.

[henrye]

Robin.  In the pic with the 2 fairway bunkers shown on the left, how far back from the green are you?  That looks like the lay-up spot.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Robin that new green looks both small as a green but on that angle it looks very hard to hit with a short club let alone a bigger bat. I think I am a bit dissapointed in the elevation and partial blindness that appears, also how far out are those bunkers, if they are 60 yards out are they needed. Perhaps I am judging too early. Thanks for the pics.

[Tom Birkert]

Oh dear. Oh dear. Oh dear.

I didn't realise we were in the potato field in the Midlands otherwise known as The Belfry.

Still, I guess they're being consistent, what with the railways sleepers and fountain on 8.

I just threw up in my mouth a bit.

[Scott Warren]

I just threw up in my mouth a bit.

[Paul_Turner]

Robin

You were right...it's a Belfry copy, reminds me of the 10th.  It certainly looks difficult and sure will satisfy the macho elements.  Those that think the 12th is now so much stronger because it's become a par4

[Brian Phillips]

I am absolutely stunned. What the hell does that have to do with Colt?

[Robin_Hiseman]

I just threw up in my mouth a bit.

  :DNow that's funny Tom!

Robin.  In the pic with the 2 fairway bunkers shown on the left, how far back from the green are you?  That looks like the lay-up spot.

Yes, I'm at the lay up, or maybe a little short of it.

Robin that new green looks both small as a green but on that angle it looks very hard to hit with a short club let alone a bigger bat. I think I am a bit dissapointed in the elevation and partial blindness that appears, also how far out are those bunkers, if they are 60 yards out are they needed. Perhaps I am judging too early. Thanks for the pics.

Adrian, it's probably 35 metres long give or take.  A ferociously difficult target to hold from distance.  The greens will HAVE to be soft, or they'll skid through the back every time.

One thing I have to say is that the quality of construction is spot on.  No faulting MJ Abbott for the work they are doing.  It's also worth noting that we are having one of the warmest and driest October's in history, so they MIGHT just get away with it being ready for next May.  This time last year it was snowing!

[Gareth Williams]

Judging from the photos of the Wentworth site - The Burma Road course that we used to love or hate seems to me has disappeared off the radar. Now it is replaced by its long lost evil twin! - it looks Rees-'ified' - the work looks similar to what happened at Cog Hill.

I have great respect for Ernie as a golfer and how he manages himself on the course, but have serious question marks of him as a golf course architect - it seems that there is a bit of disrespect for Harry Colt's vision and as a golf course architect not really trying to restore Colt's original vision. I think the stream on 18 (artifical) and the serious lack of reintroducing heather as a form of hazard is a joke. The bunkers look too similar to each other. 

I feel that Wentworth is now 'Americanised', especially with the introduction of the ryegrass in the rough, rather than one of those Surrey heathland gems. 

One of my regrets is not playing the course before these dramatic changes.

Totally agree in respect of the bunkers Ben.

I've been watching this work for the last 6 months have seen the "progress" in detail to the 7th/8th/9th/10th/11th/12th/13th greens as they are near to my house.

They all look the same for the most part  

Very American in style, look and how they will play - usually bunker front left and right with a narrow ascending entry to the greens and with severe run off areas back and side. Look very "tacked" onto the end of holes.

[Gareth Williams]

I am absolutely stunned. What the hell does that have to do with Colt?

Colt who? 

[Paul_Turner]

Judging from the photos of the Wentworth site - The Burma Road course that we used to love or hate seems to me has disappeared off the radar. Now it is replaced by its long lost evil twin! - it looks Rees-'ified' - the work looks similar to what happened at Cog Hill.

I have great respect for Ernie as a golfer and how he manages himself on the course, but have serious question marks of him as a golf course architect - it seems that there is a bit of disrespect for Harry Colt's vision and as a golf course architect not really trying to restore Colt's original vision. I think the stream on 18 (artifical) and the serious lack of reintroducing heather as a form of hazard is a joke. The bunkers look too similar to each other. 

I feel that Wentworth is now 'Americanised', especially with the introduction of the ryegrass in the rough, rather than one of those Surrey heathland gems. 

One of my regrets is not playing the course before these dramatic changes.

Totally agree in respect of the bunkers Ben.

I've been watching this work for the last 6 months have seen the "progress" in detail to the 7th/8th/9th/10th/11th/12th/13th greens as they are near to my house.

They all look the same for the most part  

Very American in style, look and how they will play - usually bunker front left and right with a narrow ascending entry to the greens and with severe run off areas back and side. Look very "tacked" onto the end of holes.

Gareth

I noticed that.  Even the greens that haven't been changed as much, now have extended tongues..like the 10th.  Which greens are the least changed in your opinion?

The current owner doesn't appear to care a jot about the history of the course and club.  He does appear to be taking a lot of guidance from the Euro pro tour.

Is the East going to be left alone?

[Gareth Williams]

Judging from the photos of the Wentworth site - The Burma Road course that we used to love or hate seems to me has disappeared off the radar. Now it is replaced by its long lost evil twin! - it looks Rees-'ified' - the work looks similar to what happened at Cog Hill.

I have great respect for Ernie as a golfer and how he manages himself on the course, but have serious question marks of him as a golf course architect - it seems that there is a bit of disrespect for Harry Colt's vision and as a golf course architect not really trying to restore Colt's original vision. I think the stream on 18 (artifical) and the serious lack of reintroducing heather as a form of hazard is a joke. The bunkers look too similar to each other. 

I feel that Wentworth is now 'Americanised', especially with the introduction of the ryegrass in the rough, rather than one of those Surrey heathland gems. 

One of my regrets is not playing the course before these dramatic changes.

Totally agree in respect of the bunkers Ben.

I've been watching this work for the last 6 months have seen the "progress" in detail to the 7th/8th/9th/10th/11th/12th/13th greens as they are near to my house.

They all look the same for the most part  

Very American in style, look and how they will play - usually bunker front left and right with a narrow ascending entry to the greens and with severe run off areas back and side. Look very "tacked" onto the end of holes.

Gareth

I noticed that.  Even the greens that haven't been changed as much, now have extended tongues..like the 10th.  Which greens are the least changed in your opinion?

The current owner doesn't appear to care a jot about the history of the course and club.  He does appear to be taking a lot of guidance from the Euro pro tour.

Is the East going to be left alone?

Hi Paul,

To answer your last question firstly. Yes, the East is going to be left for the time being but if the changes to the West are deemed to be a success (up for debate as to who the reference will be there...) then they might tinker with it. The reality is that Richard Caring wants to sell Wentworth (an open "secret" to those in the know) as his plans for a hotel have come to nothing due to planning restrictions.

Ally that to the need to have the top European Pro's playing in the PGA (and to retain BMW as sponsors too...) the investment in the West Course was essential if he's to have a saleable asset in the next couple of years. I also posted elsewhere (after a chat with Julian Small) that they are looking at adding a premium to membership to play the West whereas it was always included beforehand.

Of the greens that I know well and have watched the work being done I would say that the 11th has changed the least. It's always been one of my favourite holes on the course (along with the 13th and 15th) and it hasn't changed that much. However a lot of the greens look very similar and-in my eyes-don't gel with the holes at all.

I can take pictures of the course any time if you'd like to see anything specific. Have enclosed a pic of the 9th before it was completed;



And the 10th, before/during work;



And after;



And a picture of the 12th green;



And bunkering on the right hand side of the 12th;

[Paul_Turner]

Gareth

Would very much like to see more photos.  Everything looks very smooth

The 12th is a shocker!  It seems that they're so paranoid about drainage that they've gone and perched some of the greens and they don't fit with the surrounding land at all.

[Paul_Turner]

Gareth

I hope someone does a good photo tour of East, so that if it does go under the knife then there's at least a chance of restoring it later.   Frank Pont has been documenting courses:

http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/

[Philippe Binette]

That's the 4th hole at TPC Sawgrass, isn't it.

[James Boon]

Robin,

I was going to ask you if you had enjoyed your holiday to Florida, but Philippe beat me to that joke...

That's the 4th hole at TPC Sawgrass, isn't it.

I'd usually say thanks for the photos, but I'm not sure I wanted to see this...  Sure, Wentworth West was probably not anyones favourite Colt course, but what have they done?

I think Paul Turner summed it up well, before these pictures were posted:

I guess it's a classic example of the pro game not being compatible with preserving original golf courses: like Augusta etc and so similarly the Burma Road is now almost a Colt/Morrison course in routing only.

Will there actually be any water in that hazard short of the green? It looks very shallow.

I'm glad I managed to play the old version some years ago, as well as getting to the PGA on several occasions to watch the pros play. It will be interesting to see how the pros get on in May, but if they wanted a course to challenge them that badly, couldn't they have ripped up their 3rd course and rebuilt something there? Just seems a real shame to make such large changes to a Harry Colt course? I must add that I've not played the Edinburgh course so I dont know what thats like, but I've always wanted to play the East, so I may try and get there in the next couple of years before they make any big changes there as well!

Cheers,

James

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