[Ed Oden]

I don't believe anyone has posted pictures of Biltmore Forest, so I thought I would do so.  Plus, its an excuse to try out a different approach to posting photos here.  Since the updated website is not user friendly for viewing pictures in large format, I have recently been posting links to slideshows of courses I have on Flickr.  But the downside to that approach is that you can't provide commentary on the pictures.  So this time I am going to try attaching links to large size photos for each hole within the commentary.  So hopefully you can switch back and forth easily between the two screens.  Let me know if you like this idea.

Biltmore Forest is a 1922 Ross design.  From the back tees the course is 6606 yards and a par 70.  But with only one par 5 and 3 par 3s, it plays much longer than its yardage.  If you do the math that means there are 14 par 4s.  I can't think of another course with more par 4s.  No doubt someone will know of one.  The course rating (71.5) and slope (127) are ridiculously low in my opinion.  

#1 342 yard par 4 - A short (and relatively easy) opener playing downhill to a green tucked beyond a creek.  Laying up with an iron is an option.  But that will leave a substantially downhill lie on the approach.  So the preferred play seems to be driver or 3-wood to the bottom of the hill where you will have a flat lie for a 50 yard pitch to the green.  Find that spot and you have a great chance to start your round with a birdie.  Here is the view from tee...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986405072/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



...the downhill approach if you layup off the tee...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985649225/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



...and the pitch if you hit driver...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985648115/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/




#2 440 yard par 4 - A sharp dogleg to the right places a premium on finding the fairway off the tee.  Playing safe leaves a long uphill second while an aggressive line along the dogleg brings the trees and creek on the right into play.  Some tree removal would do this hole good.  Regardless, this is a tough hole where par is a great score.  From the tee...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986401734/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



...and the approach...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985629287/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



The simple benching of the green into the bank belies the fact it is severely sloped back to front.  The miss here should be short...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985615227/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/




#3 156 yard par 3 - I am embarrassed to say that in two rounds I failed to snap even one photo of this hole.  Fortunately, it is, in my opinion, the least impressive of the par 3s.


#4 450 yard par 4 - A terrific hole and very demanding one.  Not much trouble off the tee other than avoiding the creek on the right.  But if you don't find the fairway you have very little chance of getting to the green on your second.  Here are two pics from the tee...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986369434/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986368456/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



...and the long approach shot.  Balls will bounce off the bank on the left toward the green...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985611661/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/




#5 397 yard par 4 - While there is plenty of room off the tee, the cant of the fairway will kick balls on the left side toward the rough.  So the best line is down the right...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986364460/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



The uphill approach is to an incredibly natural green site.  Many associate Ross with pushup greens.  But to my eye, some of his best are like this one where is looks as if someone simply stuck a pin in the ground and cut the grass around it..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986363538/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



#6 374 yard par 4 - Perhaps my favorite hole on the course.  From the tee it looks like the best angle of approach to the green must be from the right side of the fairway....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986341278/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



But the right side leaves a largely blind approach...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985582615/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



...whereas he left side affords a much better view...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986338412/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



What really distinguishes the hole, however, is the green itself, where a huge ridge runs through the center of the green separating it into an upper half on the right and a lower half on the left...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985581119/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



Here is a pic from behind which shows the wild slope...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985580097/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/




#7 522 yard par 5 - The only par 5 on the course is reachable in two.  Not much to worry about from the tee other than avoiding the trees on the left...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985578653/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



The second shot is entirely blind over the hill...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986332842/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



Those unable to reach the green in two are left with a short downhill 3rd...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985562979/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



What you can't see from the fairway is how much the green slopes front to back, making it hard to get close to front pin positions...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985559361/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/




#8 418 yard par 4 - A drive to the crest of the hill...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986313332/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



...will leave a downhill approach to a green sloped severely from back to front...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985554123/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/




#9 162 yard par 3 - I saw an old thread where Brad Klein described this hole as the only redan Ross ever designed.  While it may look like a redan, I don't see that it plays like one.  It is too short to make a running shot much of an option.  The green does not slope front to back in any meaningful way.  And the hump isn't big enough to truly feed balls toward a back left pin.  Nevertheless, it is still a fine par 3, although I doubt front pin positions are much of a challenge...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985552981/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



That's the front nine.  I will follow with the back when I get a chance.  In the meantime, let me know if you like this approach to posting pictures.

Ed

[Ed Oden]

The back nine:

#10 399 yard par 4 - Another canted fairway.  Balls left of center will kick into the left rough.  An uphill approach makes this hole play longer than the yardage.  From the tee...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986290740/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



I like the slightly rumpled look of the fairway.  Here is the approach...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986289912/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



...and the green site...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985534463/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/




#11 364 yard par 4 - Downhill all the way, this hole might be reachable under fast and firm conditions.  That wasn't the case during my visit.  From the tee...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986288308/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



The downhill approaach is similar to the par 5 seventh in that it...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986285104/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



...masks the fact the green slopes away to the back...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985528521/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/




#12 312 yard par 4 - A short par that really isn't reachable since it plays uphill.  I'd like to see some tree removal on the left side to reward those that can find the preferred spot to attack the green.  From the tee...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986281078/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



...and the blind approach...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985524157/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/




#13 470 yard par 4 - This is where things really start to get interesting.  The 13th is a terrific hole.  The hump on the right side of the fairway means a blind second for those taking that line...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986258016/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



The left side is clearly the best spot as even from the center of the fairway your view can be partially obstructed...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986257076/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



I don't have a photo of the 13th green, but it is a really good one with a high plateau on the center right side that creates havoc if you are not in the right spot relative to the day's pin position.

One more thing on #13, I am told it was originally a par 5.  If so, its curious that it would be converted to a par 4 since there is only one other par 5 on the course.  There certainly appears to be enough room behind the current tee to make it back into a par 5, albeit a shorter one.  Regardless, the hole is a strong one in its current state.


#14 289 yard par 4 - This short hole is oh so close to being truly great.  In my opinion its only flaw is that the bunker guarding the front of the green is too big.  If it were smaller, perhaps more like a pot bunker, and the ramps on both sides a bit wider, then driving the green would be more than just an eye of the needle proposition.  Here are two pics from the tee...  

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985500801/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985499027/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/




#15 218 yard par 3 - The final par 3 is both beauty and beast.  But notice how far the green has shrunk away from the bunkers...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985495401/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/




#16 428 yard par 4 - One of the best holes on the course.  You must challenge the left side bunkers in order to shorten the hole.  But the payoff for pulling it off can be 2 or 3 clubs less on the approach than a safer line down the right center.  Two pics from the tee...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985493661/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985492897/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



...and a couple more of the approach to another deceptively difficult green sloping right to left...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986225412/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986224264/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/




#17 450 yard par 4 - Perhaps the most challenging tee shot on the course with a creek running the length of the landing zone on the left and a road OB on the right.  Big hitters must be careful not to run into the creek as it bends and crosses the fairway...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985466009/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



The approach is to another simple, low lying, natural green site...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986220916/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/




#18 415 yard par 4 - The left side of the fairway is all that can be seen from the tee.  But the preferred line is down the blind right side...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986219624/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3985461545/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



...the uphill approach is much longer and far more demanding than meets the eye...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986217116/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/



http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/3986216256/sizes/l/in/set-72157622525989112/




I don't know that any course which has held a US Womens Am can be considered a hidden gem.  But for such a solid course, Biltmore Forest sure doesn't get much run on this site or anywhere else.  Don't pass it up if you are lucky enough to get an invite.

Ed

[Lawrence Largent]

I play in the Sweetser Memorial every year and you are correct that the course plays much longer than the yardage.  I believe that the course has a ton of scoring resistance.  I do think that the 13th green is a tad severe for the length of the hole though.   Overall the course has alot of character and the greens are really really wild.   Ed is correct on the the course not getting alot of attention.  I would think that alot of people in Asheville don't even know the course is there hidden behind all of those trees and houses.


Lawrence

[Bruce Wellmon]

I've played Biltmore maybe 5 times and consider it one of my favorites. It is very well conditioned. Tough greens.
I would put it in a similar category as Old Town. Must play. Hidden, little press for how good it is.

[Brandon Johnson]

Great Pics! I've only played Biltmore Forest once so it is a treat to revist the course through the photos. Very fun golf course to play with some interesting/tough greens. (Especially if you end up above the cup or miss in the wrong spot) If you have good touch on and around the greens one can handle the tricky slopes but I can see a few of those greens gettign away from you if your not careful. i

Lawrence, Sweetser Memorial

[Brandon Johnson]

I love the big long natural rolls and slopes in the fairways!!!

Lawrence, I heard the really get the greens running fast for the Sweetser Memorial. I bet it is fun under those conditions.

[Lawrence Largent]

Last year the greens were a 13 and pretty firm!  There's a big difference in playing the course on a normal day compared to true tournament conditions.

Lawrence

[Ed Oden]

So what do you think about this way of doing a photo tour?  Good, bad or ugly?

[Sean_A]

So what do you think about this way of doing a photo tour?  Good, bad or ugly?

Ed

I really like your tours, but even though the current site's format is not conducive (why I ask?) to large pix I prefer seeing all the pix on the thread for two reasons.  First, I can't easily scroll to compare pis of different holes - something I like to do.  Second, it takes too long to get to the pix.  Third, as you stated, your often wonderful text is lost and or compromised/awkward. 

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

Ed,

Thanks so much for this.  Along with Old Town, this is the course I most want to play in NC. Before your post I hadn't even seen one picture of it!

Agree on the 15 green -- 8 green looks as though it could use the same treatment.  In general, the course looks as though it could stand to lose a few trees and gain some texture.

As for the photo posting approach, it's sad to say but is it possible to put the hole commentaries with the pics on the Flickr page?  I clicked on the "Back to Flickr photo page" link and then strolled through your pics as I would an album.  I very much liked that approach: it was like "walking" the course, a very nice feel.

Mark

[rjsimper]

Thanks Ed for the photos. Having been married in Asheville, I was curious about this course.

As for the photos, I think it's got to be one way or the other - either an album with a single link, and the album houses the commentary, or the photos posted within the post to be seen as Sean notes.  Neither is a perfect solution with the new site I agree, but I think that's the best we've got!

[Ed Oden]

So what do you think about this way of doing a photo tour?  Good, bad or ugly?

Ed

I really like your tours, but even though the current site's format is not conducive (why I ask?) to large pix I prefer seeing all the pix on the thread for two reasons.  First, I can't easily scroll to compare pis of different holes - something I like to do.  Second, it takes too long to get to the pix.  Third, as you stated, your often wonderful text is lost and or compromised/awkward. 

Ciao

Sean, all valid points, except for the part about my "text".  My thoughts are rarely wonderful and almost always compromised/awkward.  As for the website, Ben sent me a message several months back saying that they were working on it.  So hopefully things change to permit better viewing of larger photos at some point.  I was just trying to see if this might be an alternative in the interim.  Judging by the luke warm reception, probably not.

Ed

[Ed Oden]

As for the photo posting approach, it's sad to say but is it possible to put the hole commentaries with the pics on the Flickr page?  I clicked on the "Back to Flickr photo page" link and then strolled through your pics as I would an album.  I very much liked that approach: it was like "walking" the course, a very nice feel.

Mark, that may be possible.  But I've got A LOT of pictures on there of many courses.  And the way my perfectionist mind works I won't be able to add descriptions to some courses without feeling the need to do so on all of them.  Not sure I am up to that task, but who knows. 

Ed

[Ed Oden]

Thanks Ed for the photos. Having been married in Asheville, I was curious about this course.

As for the photos, I think it's got to be one way or the other - either an album with a single link, and the album houses the commentary, or the photos posted within the post to be seen as Sean notes.  Neither is a perfect solution with the new site I agree, but I think that's the best we've got!

Agreed, there is no perfect solution absent a change to the website.  Here is a link to an album of the Biltmore Forest pics (including a bunch I didn't post), but without the commentary:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/sets/72157622525989112/

Ed

[Ed Oden]

I have accepted failure and imported the photos (resized to a smaller compatible size) directly into my original posts.  I've also added commentary to the back nine holes.

Ed

[Jon Heise]

Ed, I like this style of photo tour.

Course looks awesome, I've always wanted to see pics and these are the first.  Add some classic Donald Ross to a great piece of property and there ya go! 

[Mark Bourgeois]

1,2,4&6: trees need to be cleared to remove the simplistic definitions of playing corridors and tempt or distract golfers

10: I don't know why, but I really enjoy Ross's straight, uphill holes.  Maybe because there aren't a lot out there and he did them better than anyone else.

greens: mowing lines have degraded the outlines / pads over the years.

[Sean_A]

Ed

This course looks quite interesting except for the trees spoiling what looks like could be great interior views and playing lines particularly where the creek is involved.  I especially dislike the trees behind the par 5.  Curiously, the bunkers seem detached from the greens, but in an rather cool way.  The greens look like they may be slippery buggers with the natural slopes.  How cool is the approach to 18?  The mounding to the rear is wild.  Thanks for making the effort.

Ciao

[Eric_Terhorst]

Thanks for the pics Ed

The land and holes remind me of another Ross goodie, French Lick

[Ed Oden]

A few things to keep in mind about Biltmore Forest:

While the course could clearly use some tree removal, the photos may be a little deceptive in that regard.  Many of the spots which appear to be most in need of losing a few limbs are actually OB.  If you look closely you can see white stakes in several pics just inside the tree lines.  Houses surround the perimeter of the course.  So the trees will in some cases keep balls in play that are otherwise destined for a back yard barbeque.  Also, I suspect some of the trees were planted with safety considerations in mind since the course is on a very compact site (using Google Planimeter, it looks like the club is on about 115 acres, including clubhouse, parking lot, range, short game area and the road that splits the property).  For example, on #1 the road is immediately to the left and the 18th tee is long right.  So the trees likely protect both members and their cars here.  My point is that its not quite as simple as handing a chainsaw to the first lumberjack that stumbles onto the property.

Obviously, the greens have been allowed to shrink over time.  What I find most notable, however, is how good they remain despite that fact.  The loss of size doesn't seem to have detracted from their character or quality, which range from the subtlely baffling to the wildly dramatic.  Rather, if anything, their current state merely serves to peak the imagination as to how great these greens could be if lost area were recaptured.

Sean, what you see behind the 18th green is, from left to right, the 12th tee, the 10th tee and the practice putting green.  The mounds are built up areas supporting or surrounding those spots.

Ed

[Sean_A]

Ed

Thanks.  On holes like 2 & 3 (it looks like right of #3 is oob, but even so) if the tree were cleared out down the water lines I think people would be more likely to either challenge the water or just end up there because it doesn't look so intimidating without a wall of trees.  But then, I am not a fan of sharpish doglegs created by a wall of trees.  

Ciao

[Bruce Wellmon]

Ed, Has that house behind #2 green (visually at least) always been there? Somehow I don't remember it. Great pics.
 

[Thad Layton]

Here is a pic of the third at Biltmore Forest to fill the gap. Superb golf course- I especially like the way Ross took advantage of the topo by routing across the ridges at different angles.

[ChipOat]

Three thoughts:

1) They don't call it Biltmore FOREST for nothing.

2) The houses around the course indicate a pretty nice neighborhood.

3) Is the tee shot on #17 a lay-up for the long hitters?  If yes, I've never really liked that on long par 4's or any kind of par 5 (even though I'm a cashmere insert guy).  I'm 100% in favor of making the landing area a little TIGHTER for the big hitters such that laying up off the tee could be the smart option.  But I've never liked forced layups of any kind except on really short par 4's.  If the long hitter can also do it straight enough, let them have at it!

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

chipoat -- the neighborhood is VERY nice.  its a summer home to several celebrities and much of asheville's "elite."  the FOREST part isn't as bad as you think.  pictures don't really do the course justice in large part to the fact that the firs, etc. are so big.  it doesn't feel overgrown though.

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