Top 100 continental Europe

[Cristian]

Golf World has just listed its new top 100 European (continental) Golf Courses.

Because of the lack of in depth top quality I think the list is only interesting down to about no. 60-70.

Some interesting facts:

Top 10 (previous rank):

1. Les Bordes FRA(2)
2. Morfontaine FRA(4)
3. Valderrama SPA(1)
4. Golf National FRA(14)
5. Royal Zoute BEL(12)
6. Noordwijk HOL( 8 )
7. PGA de Catalunya SPA(10)
8. Chantilly FRA(5)
9. El Saler SPA(6)
10. Sporting Club Berlin GER(16)

Club zur Vahr (34) dropped out of the top 100

Bro Hof-RTJ II (Sweden) is the highest new entry at 12. The next two highest entries (Lubker, RTJ II at 14 and PGA National Sweden, Kyle Phillips at 17) are also in Scandinavia.

Almost a third (9 / 28) of new entries is in Scandinavia (Sweden - Denmark - Finland)

France has 18 courses in the ranking, Spain 17, Portugal 11 and Sweden 10.

Oitavos (Lisbon); newly ranked in Golf Magazine's World top 100 list as only one of 3 courses from the European continent, is only ranked 25 in this list (which seems more logical to me).

Some of the more low-profile classics (read: not having hosted a european tour event recently) have been overlooked.

Russia, Estonia, Slovenia and Poland each have one.

Places with the highest density of quality courses (within 60 minutes):

- Paris: 6 (2-4-8-11-31-52)
- Milano/Torino: 6
- Malmo: 5
- Amsterdam: 5
- Lisbon: 5
- Costa del Sol/Marbella: 5
- Biarritz: 4
- Algarve: 4
- Belek: 4

[Wayne_Kozun]

How many courses are there in continental Europe?  Is Valderrama really deserving of a #3 spot?

[Cristian]

How many courses are there in continental Europe?  Is Valderrama really deserving of a #3 spot?

I don't know the exact number, but I would guess several thousand. (ie Holland has some 200, France over 500).
Difficult to ascertain though, as new courses are still being built by reasonable numbers; the new top 100 list shows a lot of recently built courses. I think a guess of some 2000 is not far from the mark.

I have not played Valderrama, but judging from TV, I would say No; I think conditioning and tournament exposure play a big role here, but as said, I haven't played there....

Also new courses in this list seem to be overrated; from the article it looks like a lot of tour Pro's were involved in the ranking, which I think may have created a bias towards conditioning and length. This explains the lofty position of courses like PGA Catalunya, Golf National etc.

RTJ is the designer with most courses in the ranking; 12

Simpson has 9 and Colt (&Co) also 9.

[Emil Weber]

Wayne:

Germany alone has about 700 golf courses so as Cristian said, it should be several thousand.

Cristian:

Where is Hamburg-Falkenstein ranked in the list?

[Phil_the_Author]

Which were the three courses that dropped out of the top ten?

[Frank Pont]

For full list and how the rankings were compiled see:

http://www.infinitevarietygolf.com/Other/GW_C_top_100.pdf

List is weird:

- far too many new courses
- high emphasis on where the PGA plays (input from Pros) and
- local established preferences (much input for these lists historically comes from senior people the national golf unions, who are no doubt competent and nice people, but not the best to judge these matters).

Top 10 IMHO misses classic courses such as Falkenstein, Royal Hague and Kennemer.

Also I notice a strong bias towards bigger countries (France, Spain, Italy) which seem rather overrepresented.

However nice to see the great new links course Budersund so high on the list!

I find the Peugeot guide in most cases to be a better judge.

[Tom Birkert]

Please tell me the Club Nacional de Golf in Madrid isn't included in this list? I'm watching the European Tour event from there now and the course looks dreadful.

Olazabal has just taken a treble due to a cart path being 20 feet to the right of a green with OB directly the other side of it - and he rolled over the path.

I have no played Les Bordes, but I find it hard to believe that it can be better than Morfontaine, which is a very large level above Valderrama in my opinion.

[Christoph Meister]

How many courses are there in continental Europe?  Is Valderrama really deserving of a #3 spot?

By the end of 2008 there were 3.500 golf courses in continental Europe (source: European Golf Association):

Germany 684
France 559
Sweden 462
Spain 318
Italy 258

Denmark 170
Norway 169
Netherlands 161
Austria 149
Finland 117

Switzerland 94
Portugal 78
Belgium 77
Czech Republic 74
Iceland 61 (maybe this is not exactly what you call continental Europe :-) )

............

.........and as Frank Pont says - Great to see Budersand as a new entry to the list!!!

for more pictures of Budersand pls. have a look on http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39465.0/

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Tom,

Centro Nacional is not in the rankings, it is a poor course on a very, very poor site...It is not very appreciated even locally, but it was the only venue in Madrid that was willing to host the Madrid Masters (formerly Open de Madrid played in Puerta de Hierro) this year.

I can mostly comment on the Spanish courses and as Frank says, best positions are given to those that have PGA visibility:
 - Valderrama
 - PGA de Catalunya - where the Spanish Open was played this year
 - Real Club de Golf de Seville - This year Open de Andalucia and many events in recent times

Amazingly Golf Santander is very highly ranked despite being a new course, with no PGA play, designed by Rees Jones and which is extremely monotonous. I guess the very large and deep bunkers all over the place did make an impact on raters.

Quite amazingly, the ranking does not distinguish which course is rated in facilities with 36 holes (Puerta de Hierro, Club de Campo, El Prat, Emporda, San Roque )
 

[Frank Pont]

Maybe we should make our own Golf Club Atlas European top 100 and see if Golf Course Architecture magazine will publish it....... Adam Lawrence might be interested 

[Sean_A]

I continue to be amazed at PGA Catalunya being top 10.  The course isn't as good as Praia Del Rey and that shouldn't make any top 10s by a long shot.  This sort of list kills any ambition I may have to go on golfing tours of the continent.  A ton of mediocre courses that wouldn't be noticed in the States.  They should stick to a top 15 or 20 of Europe and stop at that because there aren't anywhere near 100 courses worth ranking in such a list.  Its terribly misleading. 

Ciao   

[Ulrich Mayring]

I don't think this list would be better if they had stopped at 20

Ulrich

[Martin Toal]

I think it is unfortunate that the top two courses, Les Bordes and Morfontaine, are both private. This is what I would expect in a listing of the top US courses, but not in Europe.

[astavrides]

Surely I am not the only one to question the Iceland number of 61?  C'mon where are all the Icelandheads out there?  If there were really 61 courses with a population, it would have the most courses per capita.  Its population is 300,000.  Scotland, the real champion in this category, has 543 courses for 5 million people.  Turns out only 15 of Iceland's courses are 18 holes, so I wouldn't really count it.  Granted, the population density is 5th lowest in the world, so there is plenty of land.  and a lot of daylight in summer.   not a great climate for golf though.

By the end of 2008 there were 3.500 golf courses in continental Europe (source: European Golf Association):

Germany 684
France 559
Sweden 462
Spain 318
Italy 258

Denmark 170
Norway 169
Netherlands 161
Austria 149
Finland 117

Switzerland 94
Portugal 78
Belgium 77
Czech Republic 74
Iceland 61 (maybe this is not exactly what you call continental Europe :-) )

............

.........and as Frank Pont says - Great to see Budersand as a new entry to the list!!!

for more pictures of Budersand pls. have a look on http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39465.0/




[/quote]

[Tony_Muldoon]

Edited quotes.

 

List is weird:
- high emphasis on where the PGA plays (input from Pros) and

I can mostly comment on the Spanish courses and as Frank says, best positions are given to those that have PGA visibility:
 - Valderrama
 - PGA de Catalunya - where the Spanish Open was played this year
 - Real Club de Golf de Seville - This year Open de Andalucia and many events in recent times
 

This is how Golf is evolving.  Because the authorities lack the will to roll back or Bifurcate the B&I, the stronger player in competition is turned away from the classic courses.  Sadly the new and gullible golfer seeks to emulate them and the loser is fun, spelt Golf.

[Brian Phillips]

Iceland does have that many courses but some of them are nine hole courses.  There are also about 170 courses in Norway but I think the majority of them are 9 hole courses.

[Christoph Meister]

Surely I am not the only one to question the Iceland number of 61?  C'mon where are all the Icelandheads out there?  If there were really 61 courses with a population, it would have the most courses per capita.  Its population is 300,000.  Scotland, the real champion in this category, has 543 courses for 5 million people.  Turns out only 15 of Iceland's courses are 18 holes, so I wouldn't really count it.  Granted, the population density is 5th lowest in the world, so there is plenty of land.  and a lot of daylight in summer.   not a great climate for golf though.

Population:

The population of Iceland is 319.756 as 1st. of  December 2008, whereas the population of Greater Reykjavík area is 201.585 or 63 %.

Golf courses:

There are 65 golf courses throughout the country whereas 15 of them are 18 hole golf courses and 50 are 9 hole golf course, all of them are available to visitors. In Greater Reykjavík area there are 10 golf courses whereas 5 of them are 18 hole courses and 5 are 9 hole courses.

Golf players:

There are 15.000 golfers registered in golf clubs in Iceland. According to public surveys from Capacent  Research about 35.000 individuals play golf every year or about 10 % of the population in Iceland.

(source:  http://www.golficeland.org/content/view/60/65/ )

It might be that you don't consider 9-hole courses as golf courses, but the European Golf Association and the Golf Union of Iceland do and with all respect I surely value their qualified opinion when it comes to counting golf courses....who else would know better how to count...

[Niall C]

I think it is unfortunate that the top two courses, Les Bordes and Morfontaine, are both private. This is what I would expect in a listing of the top US courses, but not in Europe.

Martin

Do you think part of the reason for their high ranking is because of the exclusivity ?

Niall

[Martin Toal]

Niall

No, but perhaps the other way round.

Culturally, though, I think European golfers want to read about courses they can play. How many of us  will be able to say we agree with either of these being at number 1 or 2?

US players are used to putting their noses up to the gates of exclusive clubs and having security shoo them away, and it is frequently remarked as a testament to egalitarianism when a US Open goes to a public course.

I think we have different preferences over here.

I am at member of Bearwood Lakes, which is private, kinda, but I do appreciate the irony in my comments.

[Cristian]

Which were the three courses that dropped out of the top ten?

Halmstad, San Lorenzo, Sotogrande

[Cristian]

Maybe we should make our own Golf Club Atlas European top 100 and see if Golf Course Architecture magazine will publish it....... Adam Lawrence might be interested 

This is a nice idea, especially for people like Sean, who now have the idea Europe (continent) only has 10 or 20 good courses, only because of some modern not too impressive layouts which are overrated into the top twenty; I am sure Sean would very much enjoy some of the courses that are classics, but that have been rated far too low, because they are under 6500 yds, and have not hosted a europeantour event recently. The same goes for some courses that are not even on this list!

So, how do we go about such a rating of our own?

[Ulrich Mayring]

Ratings are always subjective and if the audience doesn't know where the rater is coming from (golf architecturally and philosophically), the ratings are of little use to them. Therefore any effort to throw a large number of subjective ratings into a pot and stir in the hope of creating objectivity is in vain. All it does is hide where the individual raters are coming from - thus the audience will wonder even more what to make of the ratings.

In my ratings system I have come up with a fairly wordy description of the criteria (see here if interested), but when it comes down to it the main rating criterion is how much fun it is to play the course. And I bet that my idea of fun golf is different from that of some other people - so they should have a chance to get to know my preferences and then decide if my ratings will make any sense to them.

I'm sure Tom Doak's Confidential Guide has been so successful, because it was written by one guy, who you could get to know by reading some of his reviews.

And no, despite Tom Doak's involvement in one of the better known efforts, I don't believe a Joshua Crane type of rating system is useful. In fact, the more objective a rating system tries to be, the less useful it becomes.

Ulrich

[Sean_A]

Maybe we should make our own Golf Club Atlas European top 100 and see if Golf Course Architecture magazine will publish it....... Adam Lawrence might be interested  

This is a nice idea, especially for people like Sean, who now have the idea Europe (continent) only has 10 or 20 good courses, only because of some modern not too impressive layouts which are overrated into the top twenty; I am sure Sean would very much enjoy some of the courses that are classics, but that have been rated far too low, because they are under 6500 yds, and have not hosted a europeantour event recently. The same goes for some courses that are not even on this list!

So, how do we go about such a rating of our own?

Christian

That is not what I meant.  I meant that Europe doesn't have enough great courses to justify a 100 list.  More like 20 is the number then the rest is a bunch of filling with interesting highlights here and there.  Just as I don't think there are 100 courses in GB&I worthy of 100 list of greats.  That doesn't mean there aren't plenty of other good courses (and ones that I would greatly enjoy), but are they worth traveling to see and paying what is often a large green fee?  This to me is always the bottom line.  How much traveling and cost are courses worth?  If a list is gonna have a load of "its a great day out if you are in the area" then it really isn't a list worth creating as a "top 100 list".  

Ciao

[Brian Phillips]

In fact, the more objective a rating system tries to be, the less useful it becomes.

Ulrich

That is the quote of the year. Could not agree more.

[Gary Slatter]

How many courses are there in continental Europe?  Is Valderrama really deserving of a #3 spot?

By the end of 2008 there were 3.500 golf courses in continental Europe (source: European Golf Association):

Germany 684
France 559
Sweden 462
Spain 318
Italy 258

Denmark 170
Norway 169
Netherlands 161
Austria 149
Finland 117

Switzerland 94
Portugal 78
Belgium 77
Czech Republic 74
Iceland 61 (maybe this is not exactly what you call continental Europe :-) )

............

.........and as Frank Pont says - Great to see Budersand as a new entry to the list!!!

for more pictures of Budersand pls. have a look on http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39465.0/

What about Greece and Turkey as part of Europe. And my favourite is still the course Villa d'Este in Italy. Motofono?