[Anthony_Nysse]

  Nobody has the right to be wasteful, not even "The Donald..."

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

So it's wasteful, as determined by you.  And you have also determined that no one has the right to be wasteful.

This is a good example of why maintenance/fulfillment guys should not be given the power to make strategic decisions. 

Jim,
 Just because of WHO it is, WHO owns the resort and WHAT resort it is, doesnt make it right to be wasteful....

[Mark Chaplin]

You can use the wasteful argument but it doesn't IMHO stack up. OM will no doubt carry a considerable number of rounds p.a. Other clubs with tiny memberships will spend and "waste" more as you put it per round. Tony living in the land of the free I'm sure you exercise your right to have more than one set of clothes and one pair of shoes, buy more food than is strictly necessary and I'd be impressed but surprised if you drive a 1.0 car achieving 60mpg. We cannot pick and choose what is wasteful. To many around the world the entire game is wasteful and therefore your employment tending grass rather than crops is wasteful.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Well, I played an 18-hole King of the Hill match with Mr. Keiser and Mr. Urbina today, and I won a golf shirt, and I still think Old Macdonald is pretty cool.

Anthony N. has always looked to criticize my work on some grounds or another, so he can bite me.

But as for Ian, and all of the rest who ask if 6.5 acres of greens is good business or sustainable, I would just tell you the truth.

It was never my intention to build greens as big as what we've built at Old Macdonald.  Mr. Urbina and Mr. Bahto and Mr. Klein were the ones who advised taking "big and bold" to the extreme.  And the golf holes we have been building are pretty cool, so I didn't argue too much.

As for setting an example for the rest of the world ... well, Common Ground is an example for the rest of the world.  Old Macdonald is different.  The course has to compete with three of the top 100 courses in America right adjacent to it, and at the start of the project, most people would have said it was the fourth best piece of property on the site.  If we had NOT done something pretty extreme, it might well have been a failure, and the cost of failure would have been much higher than the cost of hand-mowing six acres of greens.  The entire construction budget would have been a waste of money, if the course wasn't pronounced just as good as the others.

Are 6.5 acres of greens sustainable, long-term?  I don't know about that.  The whole course is 100% fescue, and Ken Nice is in charge, so even with 6.5 acres of greens, I'm betting it's more sustainable than wherever Tony is currently working.  But I am confident that they could take the greens down to 4.5 acres if they really wanted to, and the course would only lose a handful of interesting hole locations.  For now, we'll see whether the bigger greens really add to the experience.  Judging by the reactions of the forty guys who played 18 holes today, I'm guessing they are worth it, and Mr. Keiser certainly seemed to think so ... and it IS his call.

To me, the only real question is whether the size of the greens adds to the course or not.  I think it's 100% b.s. to say that Donald Trump or Tom Fazio would be ridiculed for building the same thing we've built in Bandon.  If they did it, and pulled it off, I'd be the first to say so.  But they didn't, so drop it already.

Tom,
  "Anthony N. has always looked to criticize my work on some grounds or another, so he can bite me."
Some one on this site has to criticize you, as we are all from perfect and I'm just not drunk on the juice. That's not golf to me-I perfer things laid out in front of me, not goofy golf-Maybe that's whey PGA Tour golf isn't played on courses like that, I don't know....

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

[Anthony_Nysse]

You can use the wasteful argument but it doesn't IMHO stack up. OM will no doubt carry a considerable number of rounds p.a. Other clubs with tiny memberships will spend and "waste" more as you put it per round. Tony living in the land of the free I'm sure you exercise your right to have more than one set of clothes and one pair of shoes, buy more food than is strictly necessary and I'd be impressed but surprised if you drive a 1.0 car achieving 60mpg. We cannot pick and choose what is wasteful. To many around the world the entire game is wasteful and therefore your employment tending grass rather than crops is wasteful.

So, you want to tee it up in a corn field? Now THOSE would be big greens! 

[Mark Pearce]

That's not golf to me-I perfer things laid out in front of me, not goofy golf-Maybe that's whey PGA Tour golf isn't played on courses like that, I don't know....

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

Wow.  How to lose an argument and any support you may have had all in one easy sentence!  

Way to Go!  As you would doubtless say.  

[Leo Barber]

You can use the wasteful argument but it doesn't IMHO stack up. OM will no doubt carry a considerable number of rounds p.a. Other clubs with tiny memberships will spend and "waste" more as you put it per round. Tony living in the land of the free I'm sure you exercise your right to have more than one set of clothes and one pair of shoes, buy more food than is strictly necessary and I'd be impressed but surprised if you drive a 1.0 car achieving 60mpg. We cannot pick and choose what is wasteful. To many around the world the entire game is wasteful and therefore your employment tending grass rather than crops is wasteful.

So, you want to tee it up in a corn field? Now THOSE would be big greens! 

Anthony

I have just been on the website of the course listed on your current signature and couldn't help but notice the size of the bunkers - one in particular on your cover page that looked about six acres all on its on.  Give it a break mate.  I bet you spend more man hours on that sandy eyesore than all OMs greens put together.  Greenkeeping in Texas and now Florida doesn't exactly put you in a position to comment on wasteful

[Anthony_Nysse]

You can use the wasteful argument but it doesn't IMHO stack up. OM will no doubt carry a considerable number of rounds p.a. Other clubs with tiny memberships will spend and "waste" more as you put it per round. Tony living in the land of the free I'm sure you exercise your right to have more than one set of clothes and one pair of shoes, buy more food than is strictly necessary and I'd be impressed but surprised if you drive a 1.0 car achieving 60mpg. We cannot pick and choose what is wasteful. To many around the world the entire game is wasteful and therefore your employment tending grass rather than crops is wasteful.

So, you want to tee it up in a corn field? Now THOSE would be big greens!  

Anthony

I have just been on the website of the course listed on your current signature and couldn't help but notice the size of the bunkers - one in particular on your cover page that looked about six acres all on its on.  Give it a break mate.  I bet you spend more man hours on that sandy eyesore than all OMs greens put together.  Greenkeeping in Texas and now Florida doesn't exactly put you in a position to comment on wasteful

So, because I dont perfer that kind of golf, my opinion doesnt matter?  Because I dont care for goofy? My commentes were strict TURFGRASS based, nothing more. That's alright, I'm glad to say that I'm not drunk on the juice that others are and can have an opinion and not care if it goes against the grain. (not a pun for Johnny Miller)
  We have around 7 acres here, BUT we only rake greensides every other day with 3 employees and fairway traps twice a week with a machine-not too labor intensive, as THEY ARE hazard. I sort of feel like Ian Larson-I state my opionion, with is turfgrass related, as that's my profession, and I get blasted by Leo, who isnt in my field. Thats like me talking about politics and claiming I have a clue what I'm talking about.
  Leo-The cards I was delt at the places I've worked at, are out of my control. What I CAN control is the chemicals/fertilizers used watering practices, fuel usage, the use of growth regulators, etc....

[Jud_T]

I think Tony's still smarting from that mediocre review Pine Tree recieved in the Confidential Guide.....

[Jim Colton]

Like Tom said, if OM bombs and nobody plays it, then that would be wasteful. I doubt that happens. If somebody takes the 'big green' idea and applies it willy-nilly on some mediocre course that bombs, then that's wasteful.  But if that happens, is it Tom Doak's fault?  We've seen a couple high profile courses that have taken 'minimalism' to an extreme and are currently paying the price for it. Should we blame Tom Doak for those as well, simply because he helped make it popular?  Tom, you owe everybody an apology for the damage you've done to the game.

How about a private course with half the green sizes and 1/10th the play?  Isn't that more wasteful?  I'm sure there are courses where greens are mowed for 1-2 groups playing that day.

[Andy Troeger]

This thread could have been a good read had it turned into a civilized discussion of the merits/issues of really large greens from a playability/maintenance standpoint; it started with some interesting points on both sides. Too bad...

[Mike Hendren]

I've got to step up my game.   Tim Bert calls me the "Anti-Doak" yet I have yet to be on the receiving end of a "bite me" from the butt boys' idol hisownself.  I knew I shouldn't have been effusive in my praise of his firm's incredible work at  Blue Mound in my IM to Tom.  BTW, it's about time we had a few "bite me's" thrown around.  After all it's frank commentary Ran seeks and what's a few "bite me's" among friends ?

Mike

[Anthony_Nysse]

I think Tony's still smarting from that mediocre review Pine Tree recieved in the Confidential Guide.....

...AND another BOMB! Cant say that I've read the Confidential Guide, nor do I really need a book to tell me what courses are good, architectually. I've never claimed PT as the worlds greatest course or that it's merits are better than a course down the street. It's one of the best that Mr. Wilson did and a really good course for the state of Flordia.

Andy-Agreed.

Michael-I'll share my trophy with you if you'd like!  

[Mark Pearce]

I think Tony's still smarting from that mediocre review Pine Tree recieved in the Confidential Guide.....

...AND another BOMB! Cant say that I've read the Confidential Guide, nor do I really care what Tom thought of the place. I've never claimed PT as the worlds greatest course or that it's merits are better than a course down the street. It's one of the best that Mr. Wilson did and a really good course for the state of Flordia.

Anthony,

I'm going to take a real flyer here and guess that Jud was joking.  If you're going to rough it out with the Doak crew you'll need some thicker skin, I suspect.

[Kalen Braley]

Guys,

I was really hoping we could get some more insight on the thought processes that were behind making these greens so large.  If this thread is still salvagable I'd love to hear some more comments from all sides on the pros and cons. Hopefully we can just check in all that other stuff at the door.

Thanks,

[Brent Hutto]

I've got to step up my game.   Tim Bert calls me the "Anti-Doak" yet I have yet to be on the receiving end of a "bite me" from the butt boys' idol hisownself.  I knew I shouldn't have been effusive in my praise of his firm's incredible work at  Blue Mound in my IM to Tom.  BTW, it's about time we had a few "bite me's" thrown around.  After all it's frank commentary Ran seeks and what's a few "bite me's" among friends ?

Mike

Mike,

Bite me, you big redneck.

You're right, that feels real good!

[JC Jones]

Bogey,

Don't bite me, don't get anywhere near me with your mouth.

Thanks

[Anthony_Nysse]

Okay,
  Since I may have played a small part in hijacking this thread, lead me try to steer it back on course. When I worked at Friars, Chris Hunt and I spent a lot of our time working on internal greens countours and trying to get 6-7 pinnable areas. Those of you that have seen or played OM, how many pinnable spots do you think is on every green? Enough for a different pin area for every day of the week? Maybe 10 pinnalbe areas on some greens?

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Kalen:

The Pros: Long putts which require lots of imagination, if the greens are undulating like TOC. It is very satisfying to knock a 100 foot putt stone dead. In my opinion, it's more satisfying than knocking a wedge from 70 yds inside 5 feet. But then again, I've always been a terrible putter from long range, so I get a real sense of achievement when I avoid 3 putting from long range.

The Cons: Greenkeeper might get a bit annoyed if he sees you chipping on his lovely greens. Also, you might end up getting tired of long putts. It becomes a game of "who can avoid 3 putting". Chipping becomes a smaller part of the game, which in my opinion is a step backwards.

I won't comment on the economical aspect.

[Stephen Britton]

I sort of feel like Ian Larson-I state my opionion, with is turfgrass related, as that's my profession, and I get blasted by Leo, who isnt in my field.

Ahh I think you'll find Leo is in "your" field....

[Anthony_Nysse]

I sort of feel like Ian Larson-I state my opionion, with is turfgrass related, as that's my profession, and I get blasted by Leo, who isnt in my field.

Ahh I think you'll find Leo is in "your" field....

  Ok, I'm wrong there...were just in different countries...

[Ian Larson]

If Leo is in the field he needs to wise up if he thinks any super is going to spend the same man hours and money on a large bunker ( that isn't anywhere near 6.5 acres) than he would on 6.5 acres of greens. To even think for a second that that makes any sense blows his credibility out of the water. Having one guy a couple times a week spin a large bunker with a sand pro is comparable to walk mowing 6.5 acres of greens everyday with 22" mowers!?!? Not to mention rolling, topdressing, spraying etc?

That's one of the funniest things I've heard. And it shows that Leo is going to reach for anything to ATTEMPT to make a point or take a shot. Anybody trying to something absolutely stupid by taking a shot at Tonys course, which he MAINTAINS and didn't DESIGN, is just making a fool of themselves. Especially fellow greenkeepers.

[Tim Bert]

I've got to step up my game.   Tim Bert calls me the "Anti-Doak" yet I have yet to be on the receiving end of a "bite me" from the butt boys' idol hisownself.  I knew I shouldn't have been effusive in my praise of his firm's incredible work at  Blue Mound in my IM to Tom.  BTW, it's about time we had a few "bite me's" thrown around.  After all it's frank commentary Ran seeks and what's a few "bite me's" among friends ?

Mike

Bite me, Mike!

That will be 10 Hail Bally's for you.

I for one can't wait to gleefully soak up every bit of those 6.5 acres of short grass next spring.

[Robin_Hiseman]

I think with greens so large (2.5 to 3 times the average) and which are so hard to differentiate from the surrounds, that you could forgive those players who consider themselves better with a chip and run or a lob than a 150-foot putt from opting for the aerial route.  If you can't tell where the edge of the green is then why not?

I remember that the greens on Trails ran almost seemlessly into the surrounds and commented on this to Ken Nice.  He stated that it was his intention to improve on that with OM, which it seems he has done.

I'd still like to know about the irrigation coverage, if Tom's still around.

[Adam Clayman]

Interesting how Kool-aid is used.

Who is to say that those that accuse others of drinking Butt Boy kool aid are not so brainwashed from the standard Dark age kool-aid that they aren't even aware that they are the ones who are juiced?

Tom, How many greens at Old mac have bunker right bunker left green front? To better describe...like many of the ones seen on the TV yesterday during the Nobel's Cup.

[Kalen Braley]

Anthony,

I'm guessing the # of pinnable locations have got to be massive with greens those size.  Will the greens then be healthier longer term due to other parts of the green getting less traffic?  Or is basic amatuer play too inconsistent to make a difference.

Donal,

Being a good putter myself, I've never minded big greens and in a way I've felt they are interesting alternative hazards on the course because just being "on" doesn't necessairly mean you hit a good shot and/or are in good position.  The biggest drawback I would think is getting water to them.  Forunatly being in Bandon I'm guessing they don't even need to irrigate for half the year due to cool temps and big rain totals.  But it can be frustrating when one is forced to chip on tightly mown grass because a sprinkler head is in between the ball and the cup.

As for long putts, I'd be willing to guess a normal weekend joe can conistently get a 100 foot putt closer than a 100 foot chip.

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