OLd Macdonald's greens the largest in the world

[Ian Larson]

The guys drinking the Kool Aid are the ones with brown lips on here that always get on their knees when anything has to do with Tom or his courses. It's funny, pathetic and very appearant. Just because someone that doesn't act like that and can step away from the herd of sheep to make a clear minded observation and criticism doesn't mean they are stuck in the dark ages.


I very strongly disagree with the statements that 6.5 is only worthy of a Doak because hes proved himself. And that 6.5 at a local muni designed by Joe Local for the local muni is a waste. Are you effing kidding me!?!?!

I live on the Westside of LA and play the local city courses. I just played Los Verdes on the Palos Verdes penninsula. Are you telling me that if a Ted Robinson would have went in there and doubled the green size that it would be a waste? Hell no! It's public courses that are the ones that actually NEED 6.5 to spread out traffic when they do 110k rounds a year.

The greens at OM are effing huge and will be a hit. But the guys that are on the Kool Aid are the ones that would be on their knees in front of Tom if they were only 3 acres. And you would never hear them criticize Tom for not making them 6.5 acres. There would still be a puddle of drool and sticky tissues piled up....

[Todd Bell]

Are you going to have another emotional breakdown?

[Ben Sims]

Ian,

"Brown lips", "on their knees", "sticky tissues".  Glad you're using your big words.

The big problem with your assertion is that many of us can be considered a kool-aid drinker ONLY, ONLY on this website.  In the larger golf world--you know the one with 30 million players, not 1500--no one knows about 95% of Renaissance's work.  So yeah, I drank that kool-aid. I stepped away from the herd when I became a member of this site.  So did many others on this website.  But 98% of the golfers in this nation couldn't care less.  So who is the kool-aid drinker?  Those of us in this extremely small forum that love most of what Tom puts in the ground?  

You're beyond understanding how flammable and infantile your argument is.  It's funny, pathetic, and very apparent.  

[tlavin]

I'm a big greens fetishist, so I'm counting the days.

[Mike Wagner]

Ian,

Aren't the BB comments a little out of line?  The facts are simple:

1.  They built somethign UNIQUE at OM..period.  The "wasteful" argument is so far out of bounds, it's hard to even fathom taking the time to write about it.  While I understand the point, it looks pretty stupid to come out and call it wasteful in this scenario.

2.  Doak has built some of the best courses in the world - most importantly one that hard core golfers can easily get passionate about.  It's just a completely different level.  One that gets back to the roots of golf - the other reason why it's so ludicrous to call OM's greens wasteful.  Wasteful would be the last word I would use to describe anything about one of Tom's layouts.

3.  But hey, when you're at the top, people want to knock you off no matter what.

[Rob Rigg]

The greens at OM are effing huge and will be a hit. But the guys that are on the Kool Aid are the ones that would be on their knees in front of Tom if they were only 3 acres. And you would never hear them criticize Tom for not making them 6.5 acres. There would still be a puddle of drool and sticky tissues piled up....

If the greens were only 3 acres and the course still kicked ass then I am sure everyone would be just as happy.

A course is not only about the greens or any other single element, it is about the complete package.

The scale at OM is massive - there is loads of space, some huge bunkers, big greens, etc. - It all fits.

If the team had designed a course with only 3 acres of greens then it would look much different - and maybe not stand up to the other courses on the property, but you never know with the team that was assembled to make it happen.

Pac Dunes was the first Doak course I have ever seen - and I thoroughly enjoyed it, and Trails just as much - but OM was on another level - for me. Those 10 holes were EPIC. I have not had that much fun playing golf in EVER.

That course could have been designed by Elmo and I would still be singing its praises - big ol' greens and all.

Tony,

To each his own eh - If you like "PGA Tour" courses then more power to you - I know a lot of people who like fairly tight penal courses with small to medium sized greens. Nothing wrong there.

I still do not think the "OM is wasteful" comments hold much water if you look at the total design budget, incremental cash flow potential, etc. etc.

[Ian Larson]

Bite me Todd  

Ben

I'm referring to the herd here in GCA. And are you telling me that mine and others observations of guys royally kissing Toms ass is not accurate? That ass kissing doesn't happen here?

Would you be the one guy drinking the juice that would call Tom out for not designing 6.5 acre greens if he designed them to be 3 acres? I highly highly doubt it. Because 6.5 would never be on your radar and you would never call Tom out on anything he does. The only thing I really disagree with Tom is that I don't think he could EVER fail with a new course at Bandon. I don't think anything he would design would EVER be considered a waste. And that's why I feel that 6.5 or 3 acres, a new Doak course at Bandon with the concept they used at OM would be a huge hit, regardless of the size of the greens.

If someone is drinking the juice of any golf course architect how can they ever have constructive criticism of the work? And how can they ever do it with clarity? Answer me this Ben, would you visit OM and it used the same concept with the greens only with half the area....would you be saying to yourself "why aren't these greens double in size?". And would you come on here and constructively criticize Tom for not making them 6.5? Doubtful...you would still be gushing about them the same way you are now. So if you would still be gushing and the general public doesn't know the difference....what's been lost?

And once again on GCA, a site that is here for frank discussion of GCA, someone has a differing opinion than the herd and it's looked at as unacceptable and attacked.

Ben say what you will about my observations and colorful commentary of the herd on here with Tom but it's true...and that's not even close to being some kind of shot to Tom or his work. I love it. It's just funny to watch grown men pucker up so much.

[Jim Colton]

[Intro]
(Shortayyyy) AWW S**T
GET YOUR STICKS READY IT'S ABOUT TO GO DOWN
EVERYBODY HIT DRIVER OFF THE F**KIN DECK
BUT STAY ON YOUR MOTHERF**IN TOES
WE RUNNIN THIS, LET'S GO

[Chorus]
I'M ON A DOAK (I'm on a Doak)
I'M ON A DOAK (I'm on a Doak)
EVERYBODY LOOK AT ME CAUSE I'M PLAYIN ON A DOAK (Playin on a Doak)
I'M ON A DOAK (I'm on a Doak)
I'M ON A DOAK
TAKE A GOOD HARD LOOK AT THIS MOTHERF**IN DOAK (Doak, Yeah)

I'M ON A DOAK MOTHERF**KER TAKE A LOOK AT ME
PAC DUNES WOULD '10-AND-8' ANY TPC
BUSTIN FIVE-CLUB WIND, WHIPPIN OUT MY COAT
YOU CAN'T STOP ME MOTHERF**KER CAUSE I'M ON A DOAK

TAKE A PICTURE, TRICK (trick) I'M ON A DOAK B***H (bitch)
USE MY GROUND GAME, CAUSE THIS LIE IS SO CRISP (crisp)
ALL YOU OTHER ARCHIES, YOUR WORK SO SLIPPY-SLOPPY
BUILDIN TEMPLATES HOLES EVEN WORSE THAN THE ONES YOU COPIED

I'M RIDIN ON A HIGH, DOIN FLIPS AND S**T
COMPARIN JACK AND ARNIE, REES AND FAZI'S WORK TO THIS
THIS AIN'T THE STRAITS COURSE, THIS IS REAL AS IT GETS
I'M ON A DOAK MOTHERF**KER, THE TOP MINIMALIST

I'M ON A DOAK AND, IT'S FIRM AND FAST MAN
IF YOU RATHER PLAY AN ENGH THEN KISS MY ASS MAN
HE'S THE KING OF THE WORLD, SEES GREENSITES LIKE NEO
SAND HILLS AIN'T S**T NEXT TO BALLYNEAL
{GET THE F**K UP, THIS DOAK IS REAL!!!}

F**K MOUNDS, I'M ON A DOAK, MOTHERF**KER (MOTHERF**KER)
F**K TREES, I CHOP HILLS, MOTHERF**KER (MOTHERF**KER)
I'M ON THE TEE WITH MY BOYS, MOTHERF**KER
THE DOAK LOVERS MAKE NOISE, MOTHERF**KER

KNOWS HOW TO BE OL' C.B. NOW (C.B. NOW)
TEE WIDE OPEN, SEE THE OPTIONS WOW (OPTIONS WOW)
HE COULD BUILD A '10' ON THE MOON SOMEHOW (MOON SOMEHOW)
WITH TOMMY DEEZ, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE

[T-Pain]
YEAH, NEVER THOUGHT I'D BE ON A DOAK (Let's Go)
NOW JOINING ROCK CREEK IS MY GOAL (yeah)
SEBONACK~!! LOOK AT ME, OH (B-Boys on deck)
NEVER THOUGHT I'D SEE THE DAY
WE'D SEE ANOTHER NGLA
LIKE ALL HIS POSTS SAY, 'I LOVE GCA!'

[Chorus]
I'M ON A DOAK (I'm on a Doak)
I'M ON A DOAK (I'm on a Doak)
EVERYBODY LOOK AT ME CAUSE I'M PLAYIN ON A DOAK (Whoooa)
I'M ON A DOAK (I'm on a Doak)
I'M ON A DOAK
TAKE A GOOD HARD LOOK AT THIS MOTHERF**KIN DOAK

[T-Pain]
Sha-sha-shorty, shorty
Yeah yeah yeahhh

[Ian Larson]

Before my words and stance start to become twisted and misconstrued let me reiterate that I DO think OM is awesome. I DO think the greens are awesome. I think 95% of Toms courses are awesome and it's great that we have him here on GCA.

My stance was not to come out and say that the extra acreage at OM is wasteful. It was to express my opinion on how much more money is spent when you more than double the area of the most intensely maintained area on the golf course.

I honestly feel I have a valid point when I said that if the surrounds are playing lean, mean, fast and firm...and the surrounds are seamless into the area of what is considered the green with barely any delineation. Is it completely necessary to have 6.5 if the ground game is promoted and the golfer can have a viable choice in putting anywhere around the green? Would the strategy change that much if the super cut back on the area he spent money on maintaing as "green"? With the lean fescue and F/F conditions I don't think strategy would be terribly affected...but that's just my opinion.

[Rob Rigg]

Because 6.5 would never be on your radar and you would never call Tom out on anything he does. The only thing I really disagree with Tom is that I don't think he could EVER fail with a new course at Bandon. I don't think anything he would design would EVER be considered a waste. And that's why I feel that 6.5 or 3 acres, a new Doak course at Bandon with the concept they used at OM would be a huge hit, regardless of the size of the greens.

Ian - Have you seen the site or at least photos of the holes/greens? I think only 3 acres would really look out of place. There are a few greens in the preview rotation that could have been smaller, especially because of the fairly seamless fescue fairway to green cut, but some of the green sites are raised and I honestly think a reduction in size would be detrimental - eg) Road, Cape - and even Short because it is so gnar gnar.

Jim,

That mo-fo cracks me up everytime. I like to crank it on the Prius' killer system when I roll into Pumpkin for a round in the late aft - "I'm on a Cupp" just doesn't have the same ring to it though so I haven't messed with the lyrics.

[Tim Bert]

If someone is drinking the juice of any golf course architect how can they ever have constructive criticism of the work? And how can they ever do it with clarity? Answer me this Ben, would you visit OM and it used the same concept with the greens only with half the area....would you be saying to yourself "why aren't these greens double in size?". And would you come on here and constructively criticize Tom for not making them 6.5? Doubtful...you would still be gushing about them the same way you are now. So if you would still be gushing and the general public doesn't know the difference....what's been lost?

And once again on GCA, a site that is here for frank discussion of GCA, someone has a differing opinion than the herd and it's looked at as unacceptable and attacked.

Ben say what you will about my observations and colorful commentary of the herd on here with Tom but it's true...and that's not even close to being some kind of shot to Tom or his work. I love it. It's just funny to watch grown men pucker up so much.

Ian - I for one wouldn't ask "why aren't these greens double in size" if I played the course and it only had 3 acres of greens.  The fact that I didn't ask that question doesn't mean the course wouldn't be better with 6.5.  Most people would never ask that question because it doesn't exist.  Kudos to the team working on Old Mac for asking the questions and pushing the limits if it works.

Tom Doak said himself that the green size wasn't his idea.  So, I guess everyone you are complaining about here is actually puckering up to Brad and to Jim.

I for one have played a limited number of Doak courses and two of them are amongst the best courses I've ever played.  Am I kissing his butt or stating my opinion?  You call it the former, I call it the latter.  I suppose I could pretend I didn't like the courses or even lie and insult his work, but what is the point?  Are the courses perfect?  No.  Is Tom Doak faultless?  No.

Calling people with similar opinions "herds" or "masses" is just a poor attempt at belittling our opinions.  I came up with my opinion independently as I'm sure others did as well.  I wouldn't go repeatedly play a Doak if I thought it was a piece of dog crap just because people on this web site said to do it.

Your implied assumption that only the people which go out of their way to offer a dissenting opinion have put any thought or sincerity into their feelings is misguided.

So, pucker this!

   

[Kalen Braley]

Usually these kinds of threads don't get going until mid-winter with everyone getting cabin fever.

But between this and the other nastiness found in some of the other threads, looks like we're in for a looooooong off-season!! 

[Ian Larson]

Lol Tim

I'm not complaining about anything nor am I putting down OM. I've seen all the videos as well as all of the pictures. I'll be visiting in the spring for a bachelor party weekend. I'll repeat it looks awesome and I'm sure I'll be blown away by Toms work there, especially with the greens.

All I'm saying is..could less area be maintained as green? And if so does that affect the strategy? Especially with the seamless fescue transition from surround to green, especially if it's hard to differentiate from surround to green?


If we were talking about a different scenario where they were bentgrass greens with very defined green edges and collars to the surrounds I wouldn't have a case. Having the vey defined features from green to surrounds and approaches would force maintenance. But because OM is lacking the definition could maintenance and money be dialed down with less area maintained as green. And if so would the strategy and type of game be affected?

[Doug Wright]

I haven't spent any time looking at OM videos or photos, so a question: Are all the OM greens large/huge, or is there variety? At CommonGround, which Mr. Doak says is "an example for the rest of the world," some of the greens are really large and some are pretty small, and they present different challenges as a result. This makes sense to me.

[Ben Sims]

If someone is drinking the juice of any golf course architect how can they ever have constructive criticism of the work? And how can they ever do it with clarity? Answer me this Ben, would you visit OM and it used the same concept with the greens only with half the area....would you be saying to yourself "why aren't these greens double in size?". And would you come on here and constructively criticize Tom for not making them 6.5? Doubtful...you would still be gushing about them the same way you are now. So if you would still be gushing and the general public doesn't know the difference....what's been lost?

And once again on GCA, a site that is here for frank discussion of GCA, someone has a differing opinion than the herd and it's looked at as unacceptable and attacked.

Ben say what you will about my observations and colorful commentary of the herd on here with Tom but it's true...and that's not even close to being some kind of shot to Tom or his work. I love it. It's just funny to watch grown men pucker up so much.

Ian,

This is going nowhere. 

I'll say this.  When I am standing at an airshow and people--grown men or kids--come up to me and gush about the jet, or "what it takes", I never hear anyone talking about them puckering up or brown nosing.  They are interested and impressed at something that amazes them and which they themselves don't or can't do.  I can't imagine in my wildest dreams being talented enough to pull off some of the things that Renaissance has done.  Call it what you will.  But back off from just stirring the pot by calling it brown nosing and puckering up.  I doubt very seriously you'd speak about those of us that enjoy Doak's work in these terms if we were out enjoying a golf course together, so why here?

As to being biased.  Old Mac was the third Renaissance course I have ever seen.  Exactly 23 hours after the first course of theirs I had seen, the day before at Sheep Ranch.  Which isn't really a formal golf course as you know.  I saw Pac Dunes one time before seeing Old Mac.  So, in sum, I had played only 18 golf holes of Renasissance's before I was exposed to Old Mac.  While I was on the course, I never really paid attention to the green size.  The scale is so large that--except for one or two holes--you don't notice it that much.

[Jud_T]

Are sprinkler heads even necessary? I would think with all the rain they get that handwatering the greens may be all that's needed...I don't remember seeing a sprinkler head at Pac Dunes, but it's been a few years and as they say, I drunk the kool-aid...

[Rob Rigg]

Jud,

The rain in the PNW perception is slightly inaccurate - it is just a crock to keep people from Cali or the East Coast from moving here

But seriously, during the summer it can get really dry in OR, even on the coast - and with the wind whipping like crazy the courses can probably get bone dry.

Bandon Dunes was "distressed" for the Oregon Am and the greens had patches without any fescue coverage which may have been a bit much.

I would imagine that, at times, having sprinklers would be necessary to keep the courses from getting totally burnt out.

[Scott Furlong]

Ian,
People on this website will cringe a little but many clubs do spend close or equal amount of labor (cash) maintaining bunkers.  Before you beat me to it, Pine Valley doesn’t (waste bunkers) but many clubs do.  If the members wants it and they are willing to pay for it, it’s our job give it to them.  At times bunkers can be more frustrating to maintain than greens…..it’s almost impossible to make the surface consistent….soft or firm.  Your slap at Leo is ill-advised. 

[Todd Bell]

How much of the 6.5 A putting surface will be solely utilized as a hazard/collection area etc.?

Glad you feel better Ian

[Ian Larson]

Scott

You can't say my slap at Leo was I'll advised when Leo made a conscious effort to look up Tony' s golf course and try to find something he could attack back at Tony. Leo took a very specific and personal shot at Tony and his golf course from looking at it on Google Maps all the way on the other other side of the Atlantic and made "ill advised" assumptions on Tony's management of his golf course with not even knowing who Tony is.

Not only was he taking a shot at Tony like he can help what Dick Wilson created, he was taking a shot at what Dick himself did create. Tony is the greenkeeper at a very well respected club. He didn't design it. Nor do I think Tony would choose to advance his career to a higher position solely based on the design.

Leo was out of line for assuming how big his biggest "eye sore" of a bunker was ( which his bunkers are only 1/2 acre more than OMs greens), he was out of line for trying to tell Tony how much time he spent on man hours to maintain them.

Tony came back and said how greensides are hand raked every other day and fairways were spun twice a week. In my book that amount of maintenance is on the very low end of maintenance done to bunkers.

So go ahead, tell me how I'm "ill advised" for calling someone out on making an "ill advised" claim against another greenkeeper. Tell me how Leo made a GREAT point to Tony about how Tony spends more time and money on his bunkers than OM does on their greens.

Sorry man but calling him out on something he knew nothing about was spot on.

[Leo Barber]

Thanks Ian, I might just pull my pants back up if you've finished.  My post certainly wasn't meant as a personal attack on Tony or Tony's architect or his course or any of your other wide ranging claims (in hindsight the use of the word "eyesore" was gratuitous.  Pinetree and its bunkers look great).  The argument of wastage was introduced into the debate and I was simply making a generalised statement to this regard.  7 acres of bunkers?  I have less than 1 acre of native sand, handraked twice weekly which I suspect (but goodness would never claim absolute knowledge or certainty) would have a similar strategic/penal influence as the 7 acres?  Using your logic, could 7 acres of drained, bunkerlined, imported sand, raked and weeded, firmed and repaired etc etc be construed as wasteful?  Then again I am only using your logic though as its certainly not an argument I would wish to push and personally I was enjoying the debate on the architectural merit of the OM greens not this little diversion.  No need to reply either I would prefer to return to enjoying this site.

[Scott Furlong]

Ian,
I guess I just don’t understand all the bitterness and attacks.  There is a Golf Course in Fredericksburg, VA that has 3 9’s.  There is a waterfall hole (with a snack bar in the waterfall), a par 6, a practice hole to start one of the 9’s, and a baseball hole with a homerun fence.  Goofy golf, I would say so.  Wasteful, some would say so.  However, it’s economical and people play it and have fun.  They are not serving Cakebread at the clubhouse but you used to get a Red Dog beer for a $1.  If Tom built OM in Fredericksburg, VA would it be out of place and wasteful, indeed it would.  If the course above was built in Bandon would it be wasteful, yes it would.  I would venture to say, Architects more than the owners, have their hand on the pulse on what works and doesn’t work in certain locations.  We all know they don’t get it correct all the time.  The turf is Fescue and it doesn’t need a lot of inputs to make it good.  The best way I can describe Bandon is nothing is perfect but it is perfect.  What I mean by that is; you will see weeds, turf off color, bunkers soft and sticky when it rain, etc….but it’s perfect.  Augusta; green grass everywhere, bunkers perfect, no weeds…..and it is perfect.  Courses are different and golfers will come for different reasons.  You talk about the man crush people have on this website for Tom, I see it, but I can think of a man crush you have as well.  This is no slap but are you a head Superintendent in the States?     

[George_Bahto]

I would be more than happy to take my share of blame () for pushing for large greens!!!!!

Tom tried to throttle the 5th green down by about 20%. Brad, Jim and I threw him down on the ground and stomped him until he relented and kept the green at the 18-20,000 square feet. 

The scale of the area where the course is built calls for these dramatically large greens.

[Ian Larson]

It's really incredible on here how guys can come out and say what they want. But if ever called out on anything they back off with their tales between their legs wondering why they got "attacked" when they cast the first stone. Leo you cast that first stone.

Scott there's no bitterness or attack mode. But if someone like Leo is going to come on here and unfairly post completely wrong assumptions from thousands of miles away and think he's making an accurate statement to make a point....guess what he's going to get called out. There was nothing accurate about his post. And it wasn't a general statement, it was very specific to Tony...his golf course...and how he managed his bunkers.

I haven't even read what you wrote about bunkers and how they can be maintained, I know all that. I don't disagree with you at all. But you're absolutely crazy if you think I'm "I'll advised" for calling out Leo on his post. Which in my book is an attack on Tony. How can it not be?  Reread it!!! There's nothing generalized about bunkers at all!!!! Your statement is a statement about bunkers. Leos statement is one about him googling Pine Tree and how Tony manages his bunkers because he didn't like Tonys stance.

[Joe Hancock]

.......with their tales between their legs.......

Like fishermen telling stories, only different.......