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JC Jones

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Template Holes and Differentiation
« on: October 06, 2009, 07:20:45 PM »
Since we are on a Raynor kick (something I'm happy about b/c I know little and have played zero so this is fun for me), I thought I'd ask a question that's been lingering for a while:

How can we say that Fishers is better than, Piping, than any of the others?  In other words, presumably, with template holes the courses would be more or less the same.  Clearly they arent in the same order but many of the courses effectively have the same holes on them.

One differentiates one template course from another?  Is it the extent to which the template was executed, the way it fits in with the landscape, etc.?

Please enlighten.

Thanks
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Template Holes and Differentiation
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2009, 07:31:12 PM »
JC - As far as template holes go I see it like this... The Redan hole is the most imitated hole in all of golf. CMB/Raynor, Tillinghast, Doak, and a hundred others have all built Redan holes. There is no way that anyone who has played 3 redan holes could say they are all the same. Each finds its own character. The size or the green always changes. The slope of the green is never the same. Some go for a real triangular shaped green, others match those more to the land. Some require 7-iron, others a hybrid.

What is the CBM saying? 'you take a table, cut off one side. Dig a deep bunker in front and you have a redan?'... well something like that anyways!

ChipOat

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Re: Template Holes and Differentiation
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2009, 08:04:50 PM »
JC,

"Better" is always a matter of opinion.  "Favorite" is, too, except how can anyone argue with your choices as that adjective is all about "taste"?

Because of the differences in the ground and, therefore, the routing (and the wind and the maintenance meld, etc., etc.), there really isn't a "template MacRaynor course".  Many of the HOLES are similar, but, of the seven I've played, they all have different playing characteristics, flow, etc.

Also, no two template holes are identical and, with some them, if you didn't know what they were "supposed" to be, you'd miss them (The Greenbrier is the best example I know).

As to comparing template holes: For me, it's in the construction - especially of the green complexes and I like to use the best one I've played as my personal reference point.  Redans are especially easy to compare since there's so many of them and they're one-shotters.  Of course, the "requirements" of a good/great Redan can still be pretty personal but those are mostly gray areas as, without certain minimum basics, a hole fails to qualify as a Redan.  As an aside, the 3rd at Merion is as good an example of that as I know.  It has only one of the characteristics of a consensus Redan so it just doesn't qualify and is, therefore, excluded from all discussions about Redan holes.

But, I digress.  You can BUILD wonderful green complexes (although it's harder at Fishers than on the mainland).  My reference point for a Redan is, of course, National although there's lots of good one's out there so the weak examples really stand out IMO (e.g. Fishers and The Greenbriar).  NGLA is also my reference point for a Road hole, a Cape, an Eden, a Sahara, a Bottle and an Alps.  TOC is the only really good Long hole I know although the acreage required to replicate it is probably unrealistic anywhere else.

Par 4's and, especially, par 5's are more complicated for obvious reasons although the greatness of the Road holes at both NGLA and TOC is all about the angle of the green complex so I don't know why there weren't more good examples from MacRaynor outside of National.

Similarly, the Short at NGLA is so much better than any of the others and it doesn't need to be that way.  Raynor/Banks could have done more at Fishers with #16 and, also, #17 at The Creek could be more challenging, I think.

For an Alps, you need to have a pretty good hill already in the right place for the rest of the hole (and the routing) so I'm not surprised that NGLA and Fishers are the two best that I know.  I like them better than the original at Prestwick.

Old Macdonald sounds like the ultimate comparative laboratory for your question.

Why don't you send a private message to George Bahto and Tom Doak and ask them both to post?  Who would know better than those two guys?  Lester George is probably a an "expert" on this due to his restoration at The Greenbrier.



« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 08:55:06 PM by chipoat »

Bill Brightly

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Re: Template Holes and Differentiation
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2009, 08:08:20 PM »
JC,

I think the first factor is how good is the site? National and Fishers are superb golf sites, the best that Macdonald and Raynor, respectively, ever worked with.

I think you can then judge how well the holes fit the site. The Redan at National is simply stunning. It'd be a great hole anywhere, but the views behind it make it a world class hole.

The same is true of the Alps and Punchbowl, both are superbly located in natural settings.

Thats how I would separate the MacRaynors.

JC Jones

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Re: Template Holes and Differentiation
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2009, 08:13:32 PM »
Interesting that you say NGLA and Fishers are the best land they had to work with.  From what I understand about the area that Mountain Lake is at, that is some of the best sandy, dunes land in the state of Florida.  Now, if its true that Raynor watered it down because it was a resort then that may explain it.

Either way, it is interesting to learn how the site, even for the engineering architect like Raynor, was heavily influential or hindering. 
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Template Holes and Differentiation
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2009, 08:21:45 PM »
Another thing I think is important, aside from the site itself which has an unlimited and un- calculable amount of influence on the hole is... the way the hole fits in relation to the other 17 holes on the golf course.

If one was to just drop a birritz right in the middle of a Winged Foot or a Pebble Beach, it just wouldn't fit. I think what makes these great and classic CBM / Raynor templates is how they relate in style and scale to the rest of the holes on the golf course. The Raynor Birritz at Yale works great, there are plenty of long carries, big greens, steep slopes (on the greens and off the greens). Now you take that and bring it over to Mamaronek where WF is, and it wouldn't fit. Every hole at WF is a push-up green, with different contours going everywhere on the greens. WF requires rifle like approach shots to all the greens and the Birritz can be with all sorts of running shots, it just doesn't work... Meanwhile right across the street at Quaker, Tilly finds a way to include a wonderful Redan that flows beautifully with the land and with the rest of the course.

TEPaul

Re: Template Holes and Differentiation
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2009, 08:27:26 PM »
 "From what I understand about the area that Mountain Lake is at, that is some of the best sandy, dunes land in the state of Florida."


JC:

Mountain Lake "dunes land" in Florida?? I would think that has hardly ever been the case even millenia ago. Mountain Lake is just about in the geographical middle of Florida both north/south and east/west for Goodness Sake!

I go back over 60 years with Florida and I would think the only real dunes land in Florida is along the eastern Atlantic coast line.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Template Holes and Differentiation
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2009, 08:41:14 PM »
Tom, there is a distinctly sandy ridge that Mountain Lake sits astride southeast of Orlando.  Southern Dunes, very good Steve Smyers, is down below and a bit northwest but also very sandy soil.  If you haven't been over to Mountain Lake it's definitely worth a visit, great old school resort with a fun Raynor course.

Kyle Harris

Re: Template Holes and Differentiation
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2009, 08:44:46 PM »
"From what I understand about the area that Mountain Lake is at, that is some of the best sandy, dunes land in the state of Florida."


JC:

Mountain Lake "dunes land" in Florida?? I would think that has hardly ever been the case even millenia ago. Mountain Lake is just about in the geographical middle of Florida both north/south and east/west for Goodness Sake!

I go back over 60 years with Florida and I would think the only real dunes land in Florida is along the eastern Atlantic coast line.

It's not "dunes" but it's definitely sandhills. Hilly a la Central Bucks County. Mountain Lake has like 70 feet of elevation change.

Bill Brightly

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Re: Template Holes and Differentiation
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2009, 09:06:59 PM »
JC

When I say "site" I mean far more than the soil they had to work with. I've never played Mountain Lakes (It's up on my list of must plays) but the fact that it has sandy soil is good, but National and Fishers are on the WATER! And the movement of the land at National is about as good as it gets.

JC Jones

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Re: Template Holes and Differentiation
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2009, 09:08:30 PM »
Tom, there is a distinctly sandy ridge that Mountain Lake sits astride southeast of Orlando.  Southern Dunes, very good Steve Smyers, is down below and a bit northwest but also very sandy soil.  If you haven't been over to Mountain Lake it's definitely worth a visit, great old school resort with a fun Raynor course.

When you say resort does that imply that they will accept a daily fee? 
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

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